Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

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Kedas

Senior member
Dec 6, 2018
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Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"
 
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deasd

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
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5500(CZN 6/12) & 5600(VMR 6/12) configuration & pricing looks pretty odd, these two would compete each other when on shelves.
But if true then so many info that leaked before were wrong though...ouch
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
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It does sound interesting. I'd imagine a 5700G minus IGP with perhaps a bit better base frequency.

If it's Vermeer, so much the better.
While 5700G is a fine zen3 chip, it lacks PCIe4 and is handicapped by cutdown cache. If I wanted 5700G I would have gotten 5700G, 5700x appeal would have been full cache and favorable power consumption/price/performance ratio compared to 5800x/5800x3D (5800x PPT of 145W, same as 5950x is just ridiculous for a chip with half the cores).

As it stands now, I'd like to upgrade my wife's gaming box, it's just a question of what would be the best value at the end of the year - 5700G, 5800x, or 5700x if it's more than just a rumor.
 

jamescox

Senior member
Nov 11, 2009
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IMO it is NOT there for those who would upgeade to Zen4, but those who will stay with AM4 for a while.
Yeah, DDR5 might be very expensive and limited availability for a while. Not everyone likes dealing with board revision 1.0 hardware. I am surprised they are still making an AM4 part in 2022, but it will be a good upgrade for enthusiast.

Also, this is kind of like first gen Threadripper. A lot of the die for the 5800X3D are likely salvage from Milan-X production. Those that don’t have good enough power characteristics can be sold in the desktop market.
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
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Yeah, DDR5 might be very expensive and limited availability for a while. Not everyone likes dealing with board revision 1.0 hardware. I am surprised they are still making an AM4 part in 2022, but it will be a good upgrade for enthusiast.

Also, this is kind of like first gen Threadripper. A lot of the die for the 5800X3D are likely salvage from Milan-X production. Those that don’t have good enough power characteristics can be sold in the desktop market.

That is something I would consider even on my build depending on reviews. It would allow me to skip version 1.0 of Zen 4 and either upgrade with a refresh or just wait until Zen 5 is out.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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Yeah, DDR5 might be very expensive and limited availability for a while. Not everyone likes dealing with board revision 1.0 hardware.
I thought we already learned a valuable lesson from the Alder Lake launch with regard to DDR4 vs DDR5 pricing/availability. Both Intel and AMD need to make a gradual transition to DDR5, whether it's done via two platforms offered in parallel or a new arch with dual mem controller.

I recently built a system with 64GB DDR4. When considering the price difference towards an equivalent DDR5 build, my CPU upgrade came for free.
 
Nov 26, 2005
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Here's another leak


I've dabbled a little with trying to overclock my Ryzen chips and i find not wasting time to be the better option
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,530
1,616
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Here's another leak


I've dabbled a little with trying to overclock my Ryzen chips and i find not wasting time to be the better option

Hmm, so the rumor seems mostly true. For now at least AMD wants no overclocking on the new 3D chip. More fuel for the fires.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Hmm, so the rumor seems mostly true. For now at least AMD wants no overclocking on the new 3D chip. More fuel for the fires.
This can only mean one thing: AMD has not been honest regarding the temperature increase due to adding V-cache. It's definitely substantial and they are discouraging overclocking to prevent users from damaging their brand new CPUs. It could also mean that the V-cache gets overheated to the thermal limits of silicon, leading to premature failure. Plot thickens!

I'm sure LTT is all set and ready to burn a brand new 5800X3D on camera by overclocking it with a beta or modded BIOS to get 1 million views in 5 minutes :D

In hindsight, the whole V-cache early announcement might have been a tactic on AMD's part to keep loyal users from jumping ship to Alder Lake.
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
4,810
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Here's another leak


I've dabbled a little with trying to overclock my Ryzen chips and i find not wasting time to be the better option

Yup PBO on set it and forget it.
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
2,305
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I am not an AMD fanboy or an intel supporter. I just want cheap CPU's and competition is a good thing. The 5950x was $520 a few weeks ago on a woot deal. Alder Lake is ahead of Zen 3 and AMD seems to be ignoring that fact. Yes DDR5 is much more expensive but the ram will last longer than your next build. Greedy Intel seems to have learned from AMD with competitive prices for their Alder Lake CPU's vs. AMD. The stacked 3D cache seems more like a gimmick or perk but not something people pay extra for. Do car companies charge extra for AC in cars in 2022? It's a nice feature that comes with the car.

AMD really was doing it right with Zen+ and Zen2 with regards to pricing their products. With the advent of B550 and X570, not so much. PCI-4 is one and done. Those extra PCB layers are nice to look at but they do not add value to a PC build based on performance metrics.

With that said I am getting a Zen 3 CPU when the prices come to replace my 3600.
 

itsmydamnation

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2011
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This can only mean one thing: AMD has not been honest regarding the temperature increase due to adding V-cache. It's definitely substantial and they are discouraging overclocking to prevent users from damaging their brand new CPUs. It could also mean that the V-cache gets overheated to the thermal limits of silicon, leading to premature failure. Plot thickens!

I'm sure LTT is all set and ready to burn a brand new 5800X3D on camera by overclocking it with a beta or modded BIOS to get 1 million views in 5 minutes :D

In hindsight, the whole V-cache early announcement might have been a tactic on AMD's part to keep loyal users from jumping ship to Alder Lake.
no it can mean lots of other things.......

like they are worried about people over heating the bonds between the dies
 
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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
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I'm sure LTT is all set and ready to burn a brand new 5800X3D on camera by overclocking it with a beta or modded BIOS to get 1 million views in 5 minutes :D

That particular video was already done 20-odd years ago. Athlons back then were a... hot... commodity*:


It's actually part of the reason we have both thermal throttling and integrated heat spreaders today... ;) :D

*Sorry and sorry again. My twisted sense of humour couldn't resist. I'll get me coat.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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Yes DDR5 is much more expensive but the ram will last longer than your next build.
For the price of the DDR5 today I can buy DDR4 and keep the difference in a bank account. That difference will easily buy me a faster DDR5 kit when my next system upgrade is due.

The stacked 3D cache seems more like a gimmick or perk but not something people pay extra for. Do car companies charge extra for AC in cars in 2022? It's a nice feature that comes with the car.
In car analogy talk the 3D cache is not an AC unit, but a turbo charged version of the engine. You don't really need that extra power on most of the roads you have access to, and yet people pay extra for the sport version anyway.

I've seen you repeatedly post this analysis on the forums: that ADL-S is ahead and AMD needs to address this or they'll lose sales. Believe it or not, you're biased. Not in the sense that you're biased towards a brand, but you're convinced that buyers are mostly rational (just like yourself). I've been through this myself, as colleagues at the agency I worked with a couple of years ago attempted to explain to me that I was biased towards rational buyers when building sales pitches.

AMD is riding a mind share wave right now, they managed to establish themselves as a premium brand with top gaming performance and that has enough momentum to keep sales going for a while. The 3D cache SKU has a very good chance of refreshing this mind share if it manages to beat or at least match 12900K(S) gaming performance. AMD gets to stay as a top gaming choice for the average consumer until Zen4 arrives, and Zen3 will continue to sell as the value option for quite a while longer.
 

jamescox

Senior member
Nov 11, 2009
644
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Yeah, the last thing AMD wants is another infamous video like that showing a Ryzen catching fire. Hence, the 5800X3D OC disable order, methinks.
Such complex packages can have thermal stability issues due to different expansion rates for the different components. I assume a huge amount of engineering work has been done to make sure that this isn’t a problem. Perhaps it has a lower max temperature due to such issues that would make overclocking much more likely to damage the device.
 

Det0x

Golden Member
Sep 11, 2014
1,299
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Here's another leak


I've dabbled a little with trying to overclock my Ryzen chips and i find not wasting time to be the better option

Pretty sure its the stacked 3d memory that cant run faster than 4.5ghz. Remember L3 run at same clockspeed (MP) as the cpu itself..
(3dstacked memory was originally developed for Milan X, which also happen to cap out at 4.5ghz max boosting)

Only solution for Vermeer X was to limit the clockspeed to 4.5ghz maximum and remove all overclocking options :disrelieved:
("temperature issue" is just PR BS)

See no other logical explanation for this :confused2:
 

lobz

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2017
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I am not an AMD fanboy or an intel supporter. I just want cheap CPU's and competition is a good thing. The 5950x was $520 a few weeks ago on a woot deal. Alder Lake is ahead of Zen 3 and AMD seems to be ignoring that fact. Yes DDR5 is much more expensive but the ram will last longer than your next build. Greedy Intel seems to have learned from AMD with competitive prices for their Alder Lake CPU's vs. AMD. The stacked 3D cache seems more like a gimmick or perk but not something people pay extra for. Do car companies charge extra for AC in cars in 2022? It's a nice feature that comes with the car.

AMD really was doing it right with Zen+ and Zen2 with regards to pricing their products. With the advent of B550 and X570, not so much. PCI-4 is one and done. Those extra PCB layers are nice to look at but they do not add value to a PC build based on performance metrics.

With that said I am getting a Zen 3 CPU when the prices come to replace my 3600.
That has to be the worst analogy I've read this decade so far. If any car company were in the position where they are the only company that has a model with an AC, you can be damn sure they would charge the hell out of that model, regardless of what year it is. Is $449 a banger price? Heck no. Is it lower than what I feared the price would be? Absolutely.
At this point I'm not even sure you understand the concept of the word 'gimmick'.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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That has to be the worst analogy I've read this decade so far. If any car company were in the position where they are the only company that has a model with an AC, you can be damn sure they would charge the hell out of that model, regardless of what year it is. Is $449 a banger price? Heck no. Is it lower than what I feared the price would be? Absolutely.
At this point I'm not even sure you understand the concept of the word 'gimmick'.
The only part of this post I disagree with is the gimmick part if I understand you correctly. I expects the test results to show a 15% improvement in games, and not much else changes, so Zen3 can take the gaming crown back from ADL. With the multi-threaded crown already in their court, and power efficiency in their court, this leaves Zen 3 winning in all but a few single threaded benchmarks. I don't think thats a gimmick, but overall only a small boost for Zen, but all they need at the moment. My personal testing of ADL vs Zen3 on DC apps also show this power efficiency and multi-threaded advantage personally confirmed. And by50% for both. (details in the DC forum)
 
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