Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

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Kedas

Senior member
Dec 6, 2018
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Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"
 
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Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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The timing of the N3 stacking seems quite optimistic to be available on the same year it enters mass production.

Why? The difficulty of stacking is getting the whole procedure down and ironing out the kinks. Doing it on a new process at a somehow higher density is easier once they've gone through the procedure on N7 and then N5. They could easily be working on it already since N3 has entered risk production. From TSMC's perspective what matters is whether they have a customer who wants to use this who will be getting initial allocations of N3 - i.e. if Apple or (perhaps more likely?) Intel is interested.

If they do it would be the same sort of timeline as InFO packaging where initially it trailed mass production but after a few years was available from day one.
 

Joe NYC

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Jun 26, 2021
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Why? The difficulty of stacking is getting the whole procedure down and ironing out the kinks. Doing it on a new process at a somehow higher density is easier once they've gone through the procedure on N7 and then N5.

You are right, the process can be accelerating, but still, they have N5 with a 2-year lag from start of the volume production.

Also, some of the roadmaps for SOIC started emerging at the time N3 was assumed to be getting into volume production earlier.
 

Joe NYC

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Jun 26, 2021
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See below interview.

One thing from that interview that I found quite interesting is the fact that because the cloud providers are the first ones to get CPUs in highest demand (Milan, Milan-X) and on-premises customers are way behind on the waiting list, it helps the cloud providers sell the cloud solution to the on-premises customers, because that's the only way they can get their hands on the very latest technology...
 

moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
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So AMD, show me the money. MS okay. Profit.
While Amazon was slow on the uptake with Epyc and pushed its exclusive Graviton instances instead, Microsoft Azure likely saw a chance to differentiate itself from other Cloud providers by being early with Epyc instances in each gen which they introduce day and date since Rome. Azure, along Baidu, were the first to announce deployment of Epyc Naples back in 2017, so this sure is some continuity.

I noted before that it can't really be in AMD's interest for Microsoft to hoard everything instead increasing the audience for its products, so there likely is some more substantial cooperation in the backstage.
 
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Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
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How long before MS buys AMD, at this rate? Risky, I know, with Intel looming large in the background but this doubling down is quite the novelty. Plus, AMD produces other custom chips for MS as well.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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How long before MS buys AMD, at this rate? Risky, I know, with Intel looming large in the background but this doubling down is quite the novelty. Plus, AMD produces other custom chips for MS as well.

They won't because they'd lose the x86 license deals if AMD were acquired by another company. Past behavior on the part of Microsoft would also make it difficult for that kind of deal to get past various regulatory bodies. It would also be fairly expensive since AMD has been doing well. Right now their market cap is about $160 billion, so a buyout would cost Microsoft at least $200 billion. Never mind that it would also damage their reputations with other CPU manufacturers.
 

Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
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They won't because they'd lose the x86 license deals if AMD were acquired by another company. Past behavior on the part of Microsoft would also make it difficult for that kind of deal to get past various regulatory bodies. It would also be fairly expensive since AMD has been doing well. Right now their market cap is about $160 billion, so a buyout would cost Microsoft at least $200 billion. Never mind that it would also damage their reputations with other CPU manufacturers.
I forgot about the x86 license.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
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How long before MS buys AMD, at this rate? Risky, I know, with Intel looming large in the background but this doubling down is quite the novelty. Plus, AMD produces other custom chips for MS as well.

If Microsoft wanted to get into the hardware business for real, it would be a lot cheaper to hire a team to build ARM designs that rival the M1. Even if owning AMD was a lot cheaper, they'd still have to go head to head against Intel in the x86 market. If they went all-in on ARM they could slowly phase out support for x86 Windows over a decade or so, and wouldn't have to support anyone else's ARM hardware either.

Not saying they should try to become Apple as there are a long list of reasons why that would never work out for them, but making a twelve digit sized acquisition of AMD could only possibly make sense to me if that was the reason.
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
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Here is what Intel had to say about AMD.

"Alder Lake. All of a sudden...Boom! We are back in the game," exclaims the impish tech CEO. "AMD in the rearview mirror in clients [consumer market]," he adds, "and never again will they be in the windshield; we are just leading the market."
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Here is what Intel had to say about AMD.

"Alder Lake. All of a sudden...Boom! We are back in the game," exclaims the impish tech CEO. "AMD in the rearview mirror in clients [consumer market]," he adds, "and never again will they be in the windshield; we are just leading the market."
Yea, it was posted elsewhere here. Intel is delusional. They are not on top, they are fighting for the top.. in CONSUMER and lost in the server world.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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I thought you said I was delusional. You mean to tell me Intel is also delusional?
Where did I post that you were ? I might have but its not recent that I can find.

You didn't, but since he actually is delusional he misread what you wrote and thought you said he was delusional even though you did't. ;)
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
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You didn't, but since he actually is delusional he misread what you wrote and thought you said he was delusional even though you did't. ;)
No, Mr. Mark called me delusional in this thread a few weeks ago. I didn't respond then. But thanks for chiming in with your inaccurate opinion of what I was thinking.

Yes, in server, so far behind its not funny.

Also, HEDT for Intel does not exist.

And mobile ? Not an expert there, but I know there are some pretty good chips out there for AMD.

Even ahead in desktop ? Maybe if you use Intel default power settings and smoke the PSU's, and don't count multi-threaded.

Hans is delusional.
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Regardless of what people think about V-cache (probably a letdown). AMD is now behind Intel in every aspect with power consumption being the only AMD advantage. This doesn't include the 5950x. Considering the clock regression and the 3-4 month time table before launch. Intel already has more CPU's slated for release before the 5800x3d.

I can see it now, 15% gaming gains in 1080p but lower computing power in every other aspect compared to a 5800x. This is another Zen 2 XT end of life release. The XT had lower operating voltage and a higher single core clock vs other Zen 2 parts but no real performance gains to justify the price premium.

Significant price reductions in Zen 3 is their best option before Zen 4. With Zen 4 they will have a double boost in performance (IPC gains and 5nm silicon).
I found it... Yes, saying AMD is behind Intel in every respect is delusional. As I said before, (to surmise)

Server: AMD way out front
HEDT: way out front
Desktop: contested, depends on the application, but Intel has a power problem.
Laptop: This is contested, and AMD in in the fight, with new stuff coming shortly.

Your response ???
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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No, Mr. Mark called me delusional in this thread a few weeks ago. I didn't respond then. But thanks for chiming in with your inaccurate opinion of what I was thinking.

I was making a joke, but I went back and read the post he seemed to be referencing (which I've quoted below) and frankly it's a bad take. You basically claim that AMD is behind Intel in every way except for efficiency. Then you specifically mention that this doesn't include the 5950X for some reason. It obviously doesn't consider the server space since Sapphire Rapids isn't out yet and until then Intel doesn't even have a presence in HEDT where Threadripper has been so dominant that AMD hasn't even bothered to release a Zen 3 variant. We don't have the full picture on Rembrandt yet, but we know enough about the iGPU to know it blows Intel out of the water there. You could at least claim that it technically isn't out yet so it doesn't count, but it'll be out soon enough. I don't know if all of this qualifies as delusion, but it's certainly misinformed.

I mean sure if you ignore two whole market segments, the 5950X, power use for the other desktop CPUs, and jump through enough hoops for your 5800X3D analysis to qualify it as a circus performance then I suppose AMD is now behind Intel. But with that many caveats the argument is basically meaningless.

Regardless of what people think about V-cache (probably a letdown). AMD is now behind Intel in every aspect with power consumption being the only AMD advantage. This doesn't include the 5950x. Considering the clock regression and the 3-4 month time table before launch. Intel already has more CPU's slated for release before the 5800x3d.

I can see it now, 15% gaming gains in 1080p but lower computing power in every other aspect compared to a 5800x. This is another Zen 2 XT end of life release. The XT had lower operating voltage and a higher single core clock vs other Zen 2 parts but no real performance gains to justify the price premium.

Significant price reductions in Zen 3 is their best option before Zen 4. With Zen 4 they will have a double boost in performance (IPC gains and 5nm silicon).
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
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I found it... Yes, saying AMD is behind Intel in every respect is delusional. As I said before, (to surmise)

Server: AMD way out front
HEDT: way out front
Desktop: contested, depends on the application, but Intel has a power problem.
Deskptop: This is contested, and AMD in in the fight, with new stuff coming shortly.

Your response ???
My comment was based only on the desktop market. Look at the title of this thread. There is no mention of epyc server chips or threadripper in my post. That is why I mentioned the 5950x as being the last strong hold AMD has in Zen 3. Alder Lake couldn't defeat the 5950x. I said power consumption is where AMD is well ahead of Intel.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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My comment was based only on the desktop market. Look at the title of this thread. There is no mention of epyc server chips or threadripper in my post. That is why I mentioned the 5950x as being the last strong hold AMD has in Zen 3. Alder Lake couldn't defeat the 5950x. I said power consumption is where AMD is well ahead of Intel.
Well, saying AMD is behind Intel in every respect CERTAINLY applies to everything. I still disagree that they are in desktop, but at least now I understand better..
 
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