Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[esquared]

Ok, guys stop with the Off Topic posts. This is the
64MB V-Cache on 59XX Zen3 Average +15% in Games thread.

Want to talk about Windows 11? Start your own thread.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[DAPUNISHER]

LULZ at Userbenchmark! Worst of the worst garbage tier site.

 

[UsandThem]

It contradicts interpretation of the most simple minded thinkers, who can't see the big picture.

There were pages and pages of replies berating me for suggesting that AMD and TSMC will make it happen, will get Zen 3D into the market place by the time it needs to be in market place - by Q4 2021

Dear God... just how high your horse is when you think of yourself as a thinker with a beautifully complicated mind?

I do wonder what it is like, being an "x + 3 month" thinker - and getting the wrong answer.

That's got to lead to some reflection. Like:
"Was it the + 3 that was wrong"
"What is x? Isn't it, like - the unknown"
"Can unknown ever be known?"
"x + 3 is fundamental axiom of the natural sciences, that surely can't be wrong"

The personal insults need to stop.
@Joe NYC @lobz

AT Mod Usandthem

 

[JoeRambo]

Just loaded up my X4: Foundations save. The 5775C only got around 20ish FPS during this battle. The 5800X3D is keeping my game above 80fps no problem. This kind of performance increase was something I could not have imagined. Feels surreal!

Yup, and i bet it would not show up if there were benchmarks on the web, testing some built in benchmark, or a save file 5 minutes after start of game. It is really the same with plenty of other games like Anno 1800, Stellaris etc. It takes a strong CPU with great memory subsystem to shine in those worst cases.

 

[moinmoin]

When I write what I write, I ballpark my statements until someone insults my knowledge of how things work. Below you can see a massive 1-2% performance increase that contradicts the Gamers Nexus single slide offered by another forum member.
UserBenchmark: AMD Ryzen 7 5700X vs 5800X

userbenchmark.com is not a site you want to quote seriously if you don't want your knowledge to be insulted.

 

[IntelUser2000]

That would take so much time that Z4 would probably be releasing at the same time. That is unless Z4 also has cache.

I agree.

They demoed with Zen 3, and Zen 3 already has infrastructure in place to have stacked SRAM. It's coming with Zen 3.

I'm a bit confused about performance expectations. Someone cited the Broadwell with extra cache and that it only performed better in games.

The per clock gain is about 5%, which is not too shabby, but it can be all over the place. There are some applications where the large cache will beat everything.

Remember though, Broadwell's eDRAM is more like L4. Meaning it has to go through all stages, plus it was off package so the bandwidth was much lower and latency is higher.

AMD's approach is literally L3 that's 3x as large. The benefits should be larger and more broad. Still won't be huge but 5-10% average will be great!

Another similar comparison is the Pentium 4 3.2EE. Compare that to the regular Pentium 4 3.2(not Prescott) and see how it compares.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Talking about gigabytes of SRAM cache is getting a bit ahead of ourselves, methinks.

 

[Joe NYC]

Keep in mind that the a portion of Zen 4's IPC increase is owed to the new IOD.

In what area?

I could see some performance increase of memory controller, and perhaps some way, using IOD, to turn all of individual shared L3s into one gigantic shared L3.

Of course, it's possible that the new IOD still features links for 3 CCDs, in which case they could be holding the 24-core in reserve.

it seems that each quad of the I/O die is able to communicate with 3 CCDs, which would mean that if the desktop IOD should have on spare link, if it is reusing 1/4 of the Epyc IOD

Odds are that they also have Zen 4-3D in reserve.

That's almost certain it is coming...

 

[DrMrLordX]

Why even bother with zen3D, when margins and demands for GPUs are at a record high?

If you have limited 7nm wafers and you are guaranteed to sell every GPU you make. Is there any reason to focus on CPUs in this market?

Good question! A few points to keep in mind:

AMD makes more money off Mi100 than a 6900XT
Video cards (like a 6900XT) require more components than a CPU package. Some of those components may be in short supply, reducing how many finished boards OEMs can realistically produce
The margin on EPYC is much better than Ryzen

Maybe AMD has saturated board partners with GPUs (meaning that card supplies are constrained by other components) or maybe they have not. But the market wants as much Milan as it can get right now - it's hard to order them in quantity! And AMD has much better ability to introduce more CPU product to the market, especially given how well N7 and its variants yield at the moment. I think it's pretty obvious that AMD is probably burning through every N7 wafer they can get and selling all of it. And even if they ARE focusing on dGPU production, they're going to make a lot more off enterprise cards than overpriced, gouged gamer cards.

Bottom line, the real money is in EPYC first and Mi100 second (and I only say Mi100 second, because it's slightly more niche and AMD is potentially limited by board component availability). There are reasons why it took AMD forever and a day to meet consumer demand for Vermeer and why they have never met consumer demand for RDNA2 cards.

Zen3D seems like a "slam dunk" since it involves stacking some SRAM onto B2-stepping Vermeer which they're (apparently) already able to produce in some quantity. It does look like they're going to move B2-stepping Vermeer into the market, at least to maintain a presence until they're ready to transition their consumer desktop products to something different (Raphael et al). But yeah I would not expect Zen3D consumer products to be a top priority when, again, they can just keep selling Milan now and for the foreseeable future, even after Genoa hits the streets. How RDNA2 interfaces with all that is anyone's guess. But I think, if you want to better understand why AMD isn't flooding the market with RDNA2, you need to look at the board partners and component supplies, as well as the enterprise cards. AMD may have produced a lot of dGPU chips out there waiting to go into boards that still haven't been built. Or maybe AMD is betting on a mining crash and constraining supplies of consumer cards.

 

[UsandThem]

It looks like Zen3D is going to be DiY-only, while OEMs will be getting B2-stepping Vermeer. Just guessing here. Plus with AMD being so cagey lately, when it comes to Zen3D, "I'll believe it when I see it".

Yeah, it's tough to say for sure.

AMD's biggest competitor since the launch of their 5000 series has been their production capability. Despite having such a solid product line, they simply couldn't get TSMC to produce enough.

They had to give up some of their desktop market share in order to grow their server market share.

All last year, Intel had product available and got really aggressive in pricing, so honestly if I was building a new PC last year, it would have been an Intel 10th gen system because it was available for purchase and less expensive (especially with Newegg bundles).

It ought to be an interesting 12 months seeing how both Intel and AMD respond in fiscal year 2022.

 

[coercitiv]

I don't think this is true. AMD never had an overall performance lead over Intel until Zen 3 and they sold fine even when they were further behind.

If Zen3D didn't happen at all I don't think AMD would be any worse off if they had nothing new until Zen 4.

They could not charge a premium however.

AMD with Zen3 vs. Golden Cove is in a much better shape than in any other previous period:

• this time around they start with a solid brand image, it's Intel that needs to punch through the marketing wall
• their CPU premium is compensated by the very high Z690 pricing, absurdly high if you count DDR5
• Alder Lake suffers from a combination of factors that make the platform less appealing to some customers: Win11 perception, early E-core compatibility problems, socket compatibility for coolers, motherboard availability. Many of these may seem a non-problems for some of you, but in some regions such as mine they were real. (think next to zero availability for LGA 1700 compatible coolers at launch - good luck powering your system as an average consumer)

All of these factors decay over time, but for now AMD can still sell at a premium while they prepare the 3D stock and make sure they match Intel in the eyes of the consumer early 2022. In my EU country I have seen no sign of AMD lowering prices, the only change I saw was a more steady supply. (as opposed to selling out)

Are people really going to make a new build with Zen 3D on a platform that's got to future beyond that as opposed to going with Intel when you can get in at the start of one? AMD fans would hold out for Zen 4 anyways especially with the GPU market still being the way it is.

The same can be said for every 1 out of 2 Intel generations. As long as the feature set of late AM4 boards is solid enough, users looking for flagship performance or users upgrading from older systems won't care that much.

 

[maddie]

One of AMD’s launches used a quote from them. Think it was Zen 1 or Zen+.

I can't remember this, but obviously I might have missed it.

This does exist however.

Note the 2nd link in the notes & the caption box quote.

 

[coercitiv]

So now we know what and why:

 

[lobz]

Its not the years, its the mileage... er I mean cost.

The 8/16 core argument fell apart when AMD jumped the 8core price point 15 months ago from $329 to $450. Same with the 6core going from $200 to $300. That on top of the performance data showing the 6core was just fine for gaming only. Oh wait, the upgrade then for anyone on older 300/400 series boards was to buy a Zen2 (3000) series chip which were still sort of available. It is nice to see AMD end the lie that 300 boards couldn't run Zen3 cpus especially long after the cheap prices of Zen2 have gone away.

Seriously man... thanks for reminding me how much better it is to just get away for the weekend and switch off notifications to this forum.

 

[MadRat]

Wow, like an old V8 with a nice cam versus a supercharged V4. Sure they both have similar power at their peak but the V8 was made to sustain peak work for longer. Those average FPS scores are very eye-popping. I would have expected it to be closer. Makes me think Zen 4 is going to shatter the 5800x3D performance once it hits stride.

 

[DrMrLordX]

i've read the TPU review, and i just dont see the point. IMO, this is a CPU without a target demographic.

The target demographic:

1). Mostly just plays games
2). Wants something fast at any resolution
3). Doesn't want to spend ~$700 + DDR5-6000 tax
4). May already have an AM4 motherboard and a 6c or 8c Zen2/Zen3 CPU

 

[nicalandia]

5800X3D Overclock

 

[DrMrLordX]

exactly! this CPU (or rather, CPUs with 3D V-cache) should be in consoles where gaming is the main focus and resolution isnt very high (yet)

Nah, consoles are better-served by massive APUs at this time. Maybe AMD will eventually integrate a huge cache into console APUs for the next gen, but if they do, it won't look like the 5800X3D.

That aside

For the price + platform price, the 5800X3D is a ridiculous value for gamers that arguably delivers top-tier performance, even with lowly DDR4-3200. For anything else . . . meh?

 

[Thunder 57]

Anandtech said they would have a review "next week" on April 14th. Am I surprised they do not have one? Not at all. When was there last GPU review?

I get it, people get sick, but surely they have more than one person that can do a CPU review. It's not like its a new uarch that gets the deep dive treatment. If it wasn't for these forums I would have given up on Anandtech long ago.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

Sometimes tough love can teach a person to lighten up a little and that's what's going to eventually happen and you'll be over it.

 

[Det0x]

Not sure if i should post here or in the 5000 builders thread, but have done a full comparison between my 5800x3d and my 5950x in all the different 3dmarks at max clocks
Pretty happy with the results as i got multiple rank#1 with Nvidia+5800x3d combo (eventho i'm limited to 100mhz baseclock = 4450mhz max multithread)

Night Raid score = 72331 points

• Graphics Score 171771
• CPU Score 16898

Wild Life score = 124195 points

Wild life Extreme = 52837 points

Fire Strike = 41882 points

• Graphics Score 55490
• Physics Score 30370
• Combined Score 18446

Fire Strike Extreme = 26505 points

• Graphics Score 28705
• Physics Score 30422
• Combined Score 14995

Fire Strike Ultra = 14864 points

• Graphics Score 14992
• Physics Score 30318
• Combined Score 8130

Time Spy = 20891 points

• Graphics Score 23182
• CPU Score 13393

Time Spy Extreme = 10322 points

• Graphics Score 12056
• CPU Score 5687

Port Royal = 15879 points


As a comparison, here are my 3090 numbers with the 5950x:


Port Royal = 16 050 @ I scored 16 050 in Port Royal

• Graphics Score = 16050

TIME SPY = 22 666 @ I scored 22 666 in Time Spy

• Graphics Score = 23 449
• CPU Score = 19 062

TIME SPY EXTREME = 12 180 @ I scored 12 180 in Time Spy Extreme

• Graphics Score = 12 258
• CPU Score = 11 760

FIRE STRIKE = 43 513 @ I scored 43 513 in Fire Strike

• Graphics Score = 49 613
• Physics Score = 44 674
• Combined Score = 22 188

FIRE STRIKE extreme = 27 138 @ I scored 27 138 in Fire Strike Extreme

• Graphics Score = 27 940
• Physics Score = 44 267
• Combined Score = 15 113

FIRE STRIKE ULTRA = 15 072 @ I scored 15 072 in Fire Strike Ultra

• Graphics Score = 14 796
• Physics Score = 44 514
• Combined Score = 8 140

5800x3d is much stronger in real games than 3dmark would lead you to believe as seen here:
(the "CPU benchmarks" in 3dmark are pretty much render tests with little correlation to a real gaming workloads)

Spoiler: game benches

. Shadow of the Tomb Raider: 1080p lowest

• 5950x @ ~5100/5000mhz = 353fps average cpu game
• 12900k @ 5750mhz 4300MT/s CL14 = 373fps average cpu game
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 402fps average cpu game

Horizon Zero Dawn: 1080p performance preset, lowest res scale:

• 5950x @ ~5100mhz = 301fps average cpu game
• 12900k @ 5580mhz 7160MT/s CL30 = 321fps average cpu game
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 313fps average cpu game

F1 2020 1080p low dx11: Australia benchmark location and dry weather:

• 5950x @ ~5100mhz = 490 average fps
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 555 average fps

Farcry6 1080p ultra, HD texture enabled, FSR QTY:

• 5950x @ ~5100mhz = 163 average fps
• 12900k @ 5580mhz 7160MT/s CL30 = 203 average fps
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 176 average fps

Cyberpunk 2077: 1080p low

• 5950x @ ~5100mhz = 252 average fps
• 12900k @ 5580mhz 7160MT/s CL30 = 304 average fps
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 268 average fps

Final Fantasy XV 1080p low : (game engine limited, results with grain of salt)

• 5950x @ ~5100mhz = 23426 scores
• 12900k @ ~5700mhz(?) = 23585 scores
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 23489 scores

Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker 1440p maximum : (game engine limited, results with grain of salt)

• 5950x @ ~5100mhz = 30553 scores
• 12900k @ ~5700mhz(?) = 33891 scores
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 33764 scores

HardwareLux Counter-Strike: Global Offensive benchmark settings : (only scale with clockspeed it seems)

• 12900k @ 5500mhz 4133MT/s CL16 = 954fps
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 716 fps

Metro Exodus benchmark: 1080p low:

• 5950x @ ~5100mhz = 322 average fps
• 12900k @ 5580mhz 7160MT/s CL30 = 408 average fps
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 338 average fps
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz, dx11 = 524 average fps

Metro Exodus Enhanced Benchmark: 1080p low:

• 12900k @ 5580mhz 7160MT/s CL30 = 250 average fps
• 5800x3d @ 4450mhz = 237 average fps

http://imgur.com/a/ahnY3nl

 

[coercitiv]

I am an Intel fanboy. My last intel build was in 2013.

Maybe you should buy Intel more often, if only to get a better grasp of what you're talking about.

Las bit of advice, never quote Userbenchmark data again. That "Effective speed" rating you see is NOT what you think it is.

 

[Arkaign]

Keep in mind AMD has a a reasonable sku limit. They while selling most if their products can only sell so many different skus before the stock per sku makes having the variant cost to much and create a possible over stick issue when production ends. This is worse when you are selling basically everything right now, all it would do is shift more product over to a cheaper CPU and take significant hit on volume on all other products.

It's a bit of a good example of too successful for you own good. But honestly AMD doesn't generally kill production after a new release and has always used previous products to fill in price points and spots in their lineup. To them the sub 300 CPU spot is filled with the 3600, 3300x and 3100.

Agreed. I don't blame them honestly, it all makes business sense, it's just unfortunate for the consumer.

The 3100 and especially 3300X are essentially vaporware. I did see an Asus prebuilt at Best Buy with a 3100 though lol.

The 3600 is flat out the best deal for a commonly available SKU IMHO, though the 10100, 10400, and 10500 and their 11th gen counterparts are respectable as well. The K series are overpriced, and the 10/12 core Intel parts are frankly stupid buys under any condition.

Amazon.com : Ryzen 3100

They're perpetually 'in stock soon', but at this point I doubt I'll ever see one. The Micro Center manager said he hasn't seen any since the release trickle.

 

[dr1337]

That's correct. I just wanted to point out, how unfeasible it is, expecting AMD to be producing those chips right now.

They're definitely not making many desktop ryzen chips with 3d stacking but they are making enough to have run benchmarks and show at computex. I still think they're using the cache chiplets on the CRAY super computers they're building right now and its likely that all of the ryzen production will be just in time for the holidays or CES 22 launch at the latest.

I will say its not impossible that AMD demo'd really early unvalidated engineering samples at computex, but I don't think that's what they did.

 

[Hitman928]

Pork?

I believe it is a term used only in the U.S.A.

Pork barrel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org