63 y/o Man robs bank just to get jailtime to reach social security age

[Craig234]

The unfortunate part is, if the companies are forced to incur additional costs from higher wages, who absorbs that cost - the consumers, or the wealthy individuals in charge of the company? The lower and middle class consumers will ultimately be the ones hurt by it, while the executives will reap greater profits due to disproportionately higher prices.

Wow, that's poor reasoning. If prices go up *to pay the higher wage*, somehow that translates into the owners making more profits from the higher prices?

Wrong.

Basically, we have people who understand the economic concepts of the minimum wage (those who support increasing it) and those who don't (those who oppose increasing it), putting aside those who have self-interest in workers being poor.

The propaganda is that increasing it causes inflation, increase inflation terribly, and so on. The facts are something else.

Low wage earners are a small part of the total economic system. Raising their wages does not cause big macro effects on the economy, but it does have some ripple effect on people making a little more than the minimum.

All these workers making more money gives them more money to spend, which they do, which *helps the economy*. Suddenly there are more things being bought, meaning more jobs for the whole system - manufacturing, selling, etc., and other businesses profiting from the spending.

It's why time and again, when minimum wages are raised, good economic results happen. The right-wingers here, though are as usual spouting uninformed ideology of how they think things would work, not informed information on the facts.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I call shens on his story, we all know from watching Fox News noone in this country works for minimum wage aside from kids

See my post above. Not even kids will work for minimum wage. I interviewed with a guy in Maui a few weeks ago. His wife owns a small shop (nothing special... sells candles and lotions) and can't keep people for $15/hr. I can't hire people for less than $10 an hour at my store. McDonalds starts at $9/hr.

I can't imagine how a functional adult would ever have to work for minimum wage. I can't even imagine where you'd FIND a minimum wage job.

Tell ya what. Start a business and try to hire someone for minimum wage. See how many applicants you get.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: Smilin
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/12/robber.retirement.ap/index.html

Very sad.

My thoughts: Why can someone who is actively finding jobs not make enough money to live? How do *working* people in this land of plenty go hungry?

This led me to question why the minimum wage is so sickningly low?

Raise the minimum wage at least to the point where two people sharing a household on minimum wage are AT the poverty line.

The shoot-from-the-hip reaction to raising the minimum wage is that it will cause job loss. Sounds logical to me too but studies show it just doesn't work that way. It instead causes an influx of new workers willing to accept the wage and employers get a better choice of workers who are more productive.

The states that have raised the minimum wage (and the few times the federal govornment has raised it) have provided one test case after another showing that a raise in minimum wage creates jobs and helps employers AND employees. It also pours money into consumer hands who in turn spend it (yes...if you are at the poverty line you are spending every penny you make).

Raise the minimum wage? You must also be a proponent of outsourcing, because that's exactly what raising the minimum wage does...send jobs elsewhere. Would you rather have no job or a minimum wage job?

 

[lopri]

People talk as if the economy of a country this size were an experiment chapter in a highschool textbook.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Raise the minimum wage? You must also be a proponent of outsourcing, because that's exactly what raising the minimum wage does...send jobs elsewhere. Would you rather have no job or a minimum wage job?

Please report back with a full desription of the logical fallacies in your argument, the actual job loss associated with small (say, less than 20%) increases in minimum wage, and the last date before today that the minimum wage was lower in real inflation adjusted dollars.

If you can do that, then maybe it will be a little less offensive that you and others spout the same fear-mongering crap in every minimum wage thread.

<--- Doesn't even particularly support minimum-wage as poverty fighter.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Smilin

My thoughts: Why can someone who is actively finding jobs not make enough money to live? How do *working* people in this land of plenty go hungry?

This is going to come as a shock to folks who believe that all jobs are the same and that when the government and media gush over monthly job figures that it necessarily indicates a strong economy (without bothering to ask whether the alleged new jobs are middle class jobs or require college education), but even in the third world where billions of people live in abject poverty, people still have jobs.

Basically, to answer you question, the United States is taking on increasing third world character. For example, this month the U.S. population will surpass 300 million people, and the United States is the third most populous in the world behind the middle class havens of India and China (great company to be in, eh?).

This led me to question why the minimum wage is so sickningly low?

A better question might be, why is it that the supply of labor relative to the demand of labor produces such a low price point.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: brownzilla786
He just quit and found a not so easy way out. Walmart employ's old people, and if he was so desperate I'm sure he could have found a job to suit his needs, minimum wage is better than a good donkey punch in jail.

In a way, he's protesting the state of the U.S. economy. He's going to make everyone pay for the cost of his incarceration now.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee

Ppl in his situation should be given assisted suicide or the option of selling thier eyes or a kidney. Yep! Fusk the old but not after I get old.

I love the idea of legalizing voluntary euthanasia for any adult of right mind who wants it. The problem is that we'd lose a huge percentage of the working age (and elderly) populace since many people would conclude that a painless, humane death is better than suffering unemployment, underemployment, humiliation, and dead-end job wage slavery. It would really help show just how miserable people can become in our current society. However, it would cause a huge problem--without an oversupply of labor the wealthy would get smaller profits. For that reason, I wouldn't count on seeing suicidatoriums any time soon.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I call shens on his story, we all know from watching Fox News noone in this country works for minimum wage aside from kids

The nice blond lady on Fox News said that everybody in this country has 2 houses, 3 cars, a boat, and millions of dollars in the bank.

Everyone knows nice ladies don't lie so that liberal media who's telling us otherwise must be the liars!

 

[amish]

many people who "can't find a job" are actually not willing to take a job that they see as beneath them. they do not want to be the mcdonalds worker that they sh!t on in years past. practically anyone could walk into a starbucks and get a job. most stores are always hiring.

surprisingly starbucks is not a bad place to work. part-time workers can still receive health insurance; health insurance that is better than what my work offers. there are also stock options and a decent 401k with matching if a person wishes to participate.

i don't feel bad for people that are only trying to find a loophole or an easy way out.

 

[CPA]

Dude have you been to any medium or minimum security prisons. This guy is getting a 3 year all-expense paid vacation.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: CPA
Dude have you been to any medium or minimum security prisons. This guy is getting a 3 year all-expense paid vacation.

I have. Most medium-security prisons are hardly garden spots.

 

[TravisT]

The minimum wage case is a simple economics situation. On one had, I agree, we need to raise minimum wage. On the other hand, if you increase costs on employers they will send that expense on down to the buyer. Is everyone who doesn't make minimum wage prepared to pay [Insert whatever percentage you want to increase minimum wage by here] for their Cheeseburgers?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TravisT
The minimum wage case is a simple economics situation. On one had, I agree, we need to raise minimum wage. On the other hand, if you increase costs on employers they will send that expense on down to the buyer. Is everyone who doesn't make minimum wage prepared to pay [Insert whatever percentage you want to increase minimum wage by here] for their Cheeseburgers?

The ironic thing is the people who are hit the hardest by high costs of product are the people in the bottom tier. The very people raising the min wage is supposed to help.

This issue affects almost nobody, which is why it surprises me it gets so much attention. Obviously this is just another election wedge issue to scare up the drones.

 

[TravisT]

Yeah, i agree. But I look at my own expenses even in the last 5 years. And I can tell you that economic inflation has hurt my pocket book. I'm not a rich guy, i consider myself middle class. I figure the minimum wage citizen is having it much tougher than I am. So I somewhat see where they are coming from.

But raising minimum wage is a temporary solution. We'll just see this problem again in another 4-5 years. And ultimately, this will hurt those of us who won't see an increase in wages the most, as there will be some immediate inflation. Do we want to hurt the middle class more than it's hurting already? This is a quick and easy way to do it.

Yeah, i'm taking both sides, I realize that. I see the reasoning behind both sides, but ultimately I find the idea of raising minimum wage having a negative impact on my own finances.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: TravisT
The minimum wage case is a simple economics situation. On one had, I agree, we need to raise minimum wage. On the other hand, if you increase costs on employers they will send that expense on down to the buyer. Is everyone who doesn't make minimum wage prepared to pay [Insert whatever percentage you want to increase minimum wage by here] for their Cheeseburgers?

Well then I guess MickeyD's is going to be stuck with all those $20 hamburgers.

 

[juiio]

You aren't supposed to be able to live solely off minimum wage. There is no reason that a teenager flipping burgers needs to make enough to pay rent and raise a family.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: TravisT
The minimum wage case is a simple economics situation. On one had, I agree, we need to raise minimum wage. On the other hand, if you increase costs on employers they will send that expense on down to the buyer. Is everyone who doesn't make minimum wage prepared to pay [Insert whatever percentage you want to increase minimum wage by here] for their Cheeseburgers?

The whole inflation thing is pretty much a crock.


So raise minimum wage by say $3/hr up to (a pitiful $8/hr).

How many cheeseburgers can a single McDonalds cook make in an hour? More than the number of cars you can push through a drive through that's how many.

So divide the $3/hr by that number of cheeseburgers and that's what "inflation" you are facing.

Will the cost of your car go up? No. They aren't making minimum wage to begin with. No change there.

Your house? Nope. same.
Your shampoo? Nah, price of oil does that.

The inflation thing just isn't that much of an issue. Really there just isn't a good reason NOT to raise the minumum wage. It's just that the moment you mention it, someone jumps up like a praire dog and say, "it'll cause job loss!" and the issue dies before someone level headed can mention that the facts don't agree.

You know what might be nice about raising the minimum wage? Maybe I'll get to pay for fewer people on Welfare and Medicare.

 

[TravisT]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: TravisT
The minimum wage case is a simple economics situation. On one had, I agree, we need to raise minimum wage. On the other hand, if you increase costs on employers they will send that expense on down to the buyer. Is everyone who doesn't make minimum wage prepared to pay [Insert whatever percentage you want to increase minimum wage by here] for their Cheeseburgers?

The whole inflation thing is pretty much a crock.


So raise minimum wage by say $3/hr up to (a pitiful $8/hr).

How many cheeseburgers can a single McDonalds cook make in an hour? More than the number of cars you can push through a drive through that's how many.

So divide the $3/hr by that number of cheeseburgers and that's what "inflation" you are facing.

Will the cost of your car go up? No. They aren't making minimum wage to begin with. No change there.

Your house? Nope. same.
Your shampoo? Nah, price of oil does that.

The inflation thing just isn't that much of an issue. Really there just isn't a good reason NOT to raise the minumum wage. It's just that the moment you mention it, someone jumps up like a praire dog and say, "it'll cause job loss!" and the issue dies before someone level headed can mention that the facts don't agree.

You know what might be nice about raising the minimum wage? Maybe I'll get to pay for fewer people on Welfare and Medicare.

I really don't see your argument. You think just because someone makes above minimum wage means they won't be impacted by the increase? Assembly line workers with unions will be arguing for a pay increase once they realize they are down there with minimum wage. So other jobs will also increase their wages to reflect the difference.

I agree with you in the sense that it won't cause job loss. McDonalds will still need the same amount of employee's. But if you are a business owner, your not going to take a huge pay cut as a result of this. You will simply increase prices by 20 cents on the cheeseburger to reflect the difference. So now, the owner makes the same, the workers are happy, and the customer is seeing little initial cost.

Your shampoo idea is flawed. Is shampoo miraculously put into bottles, shipped by UFO's, and magically put on the shelves for you? No, the Wal-mart worker gets paid more who puts it up there, the worker who drove it to Wal-mart gets paid more, the Assembly line workers, if there are any, get paid more.

If you really think that business owners are just going to sit there and see themselves paid less your a kidding yourself. They will pass those expenses on down to us.

Now put yourself in the shoes of an Assembly line worker making $8.00 per hour. Minimum wage gets bumped up to $7.50. Congrats, you are making only a little bit more than a high school kid who has worked at McDonalds for 3 days and you've spent years at this factory. Are you going to be pushing for a raise? Yeah you are.

See... this is the ripple effect of increasing minimum wage. It's not great for everyone, those making $12.00 - $30.00 per hour will be hurt the most.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: TravisT

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: TravisT
The minimum wage case is a simple economics situation. On one had, I agree, we need to raise minimum wage. On the other hand, if you increase costs on employers they will send that expense on down to the buyer. Is everyone who doesn't make minimum wage prepared to pay [Insert whatever percentage you want to increase minimum wage by here] for their Cheeseburgers?

The whole inflation thing is pretty much a crock.


So raise minimum wage by say $3/hr up to (a pitiful $8/hr).

How many cheeseburgers can a single McDonalds cook make in an hour? More than the number of cars you can push through a drive through that's how many.

So divide the $3/hr by that number of cheeseburgers and that's what "inflation" you are facing.

Will the cost of your car go up? No. They aren't making minimum wage to begin with. No change there.

Your house? Nope. same.
Your shampoo? Nah, price of oil does that.

The inflation thing just isn't that much of an issue. Really there just isn't a good reason NOT to raise the minumum wage. It's just that the moment you mention it, someone jumps up like a praire dog and say, "it'll cause job loss!" and the issue dies before someone level headed can mention that the facts don't agree.

You know what might be nice about raising the minimum wage? Maybe I'll get to pay for fewer people on Welfare and Medicare.

I really don't see your argument. You think just because someone makes above minimum wage means they won't be impacted by the increase? Assembly line workers with unions will be arguing for a pay increase once they realize they are down there with minimum wage. So other jobs will also increase their wages to reflect the difference.

I agree with you in the sense that it won't cause job loss. McDonalds will still need the same amount of employee's. But if you are a business owner, your not going to take a huge pay cut as a result of this. You will simply increase prices by 20 cents on the cheeseburger to reflect the difference. So now, the owner makes the same, the workers are happy, and the customer is seeing little initial cost.

Your shampoo idea is flawed. Is shampoo miraculously put into bottles, shipped by UFO's, and magically put on the shelves for you? No, the Wal-mart worker gets paid more who puts it up there, the worker who drove it to Wal-mart gets paid more, the Assembly line workers, if there are any, get paid more.

If you really think that business owners are just going to sit there and see themselves paid less your a kidding yourself. They will pass those expenses on down to us.

Now put yourself in the shoes of an Assembly line worker making $8.00 per hour. Minimum wage gets bumped up to $7.50. Congrats, you are making only a little bit more than a high school kid who has worked at McDonalds for 3 days and you've spent years at this factory. Are you going to be pushing for a raise? Yeah you are.

See... this is the ripple effect of increasing minimum wage. It's not great for everyone, those making $12.00 - $30.00 per hour will be hurt the most.

These are all logical thoughts and honestly I agree with what you are saying.

Problem is that it just never works that way. Every time there has been a minimum wage increase the whole inflation and jobloss that everyone says will happen doesn't. The few federal increases have shown this as have the state level increases.

Assembly line workers don't make $8.00/hr. That wouldn't even cover the union fees.

My feelings on it: Two people, minimum wage, 45 hours a week. Sharing an apartment. They should be able to stay off foodstamps and welfare and have a combined household income that is above poverty. If they choose to stay there fine. If they choose to get an education and pursue a better life, there are already enough social programs and assistance to help them. That is what *I* think should be the minimum that is happening.

If we can't meet that minimum then something is wrong with this country. If we can't do that then the rich are too rich.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Why not just raise the EITC? That does a better job at eliminating poverty than raising the minimum wage will ever do. Plus you don't have many of the negative side-effects that raising the minimum wage has.

 

[imported_SonDogg]

i figure we ought to just pass a law stating that every time congress votes to give themselves a raise it ought to raise minimum wage as well.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Zebo
It's a pretty sad commentary we treat prisoners better than general public and that's what gave him the imputus to do what he did.

there was also a story last year about a man who randomly gunned down a postal worker for the same reason, free heath care for his cancer. I got kinda of a kick out of that one since he was a life long republican contractror only to find himself SOL when his insurance cancelled his treatment, of course as it's thier "right" to do thanks to "free market" republican legislation. It's funny because everyone thinks they are going to be rich and only 1% really make it rest are rabble when it hits them in old age it's like "oh ******".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8575712/

I knew a guy (a long time ago) who failed to appear in court for a speeding ticket. He told them to go to hell, so they came out and arrested him and threw him in the county slammer. What they didn't know was that he was sick and got really sick in jail. I forget all the specifics, but he had no health insurance and the county had to pick up the tab for his 2 weeks in the hospital.

Our whole health service system is screwed up and has been getting worse for the last 25 years. People who work hard all their lives get shafted by those who are arrogant enough to think the common working people aren't "good enough" to deserve health care.

The part that really gets me is so many of those families are forced to have two wage earners, yet they still don't have health insurance. It's criminal IMO.