5000 troops to Colombia? w/ poll

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will trump start a war in South America?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 41.7%
  • No

    Votes: 14 58.3%

  • Total voters
    24

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,243
3,831
75
I can see how it could be read that way. When I read it I see:

"Afghanistan -> Welcome totally
spontaneous & Colo..." something that does look like Colombia, but I'm not sure. Maybe "Colonels"?

Notice how much "spon" looks like 5,000. Granted, "taneous" looks less like "troops" without a descender, but it could happen. Maybe a weirdly written "u", like "μ"?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I can see how it could be read that way. When I read it I see:

"Afghanistan -> Welcome totally
spontaneous & Colo..." something that does look like Colombia, but I'm not sure. Maybe "Colonels"?

Notice how much "spon" looks like 5,000. Granted, "taneous" looks less like "troops" without a descender, but it could happen. Maybe a weirdly written "u", like "μ"?

I'm pretty sure it says what it says & that it's just Trumpian bullshit

"As the President has said, all options are on the table," a White House spokesman said when asked for an explanation of the notes, which were seen during a briefing with reporters about new sanctions on Venezuela.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/28/politics/white-house-bolton-colombia/index.html
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
About the only thing Drumpf has done right is not get us into another war\occupation. Going into VZ would be a disaster imo.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,980
47,897
136

You’re going to have to be more clear. I’ve already spelled out why I thought the election was rigged and provided evidence as such.

You continue to avoid answering a very simple question because you know if you answer no you’ll look like a fool and if you answer yes you will be admitting I’m right.

Very. Simple. Question. In your opinion was the 2018 election rigged? Yes or no?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
You’re going to have to be more clear. I’ve already spelled out why I thought the election was rigged and provided evidence as such.

You continue to avoid answering a very simple question because you know if you answer no you’ll look like a fool and if you answer yes you will be admitting I’m right.

Very. Simple. Question. In your opinion was the 2018 election rigged? Yes or no?

First off, I think it's terrible form to argue in this way. The "evidence" you provided is not even in this thread. Nevertheless, I went ahead and combed through this thread and the other Venezuela thread and pulled everything I could find that wasn't just a Wikipedia link, or some shapeless statements about the obviousness of the fact that the elections were rigged. Here's what I was able to find:

I mean for fuck’s sake Maduro bribed starving people with food from government stores if they voted for him.

Providing food and services to people so that they will vote for you is not "rigging an election". It's practically the point of having an election in first place. I know it can be easy to forget this the US, where politicians serve lobbyists and special interests rather than voters.

I mean did you really think Maduro increased from 50.6% support to nearly 70% support over the last 5 years when those years have yielded an unprecedented economic collapse, mass hunger, and the continuing disintegration of society?

Yeah, I think it's entirely possible, if people don't believe Maduro is to blame for the economic collapse, and if they believe that another government would be worse. In fact, you even said so yourself in that very thread:

While I know very little about Venezuelan politics I don't get the sense that the average person there believes Maduro is purposefully starving them.

So no, two very weak arguments, one of which you destroyed yourself, is not compelling evidence that the election was rigged.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,980
47,897
136
First off, I think it's terrible form to argue in this way. The "evidence" you provided is not even in this thread. Nevertheless, I went ahead and combed through this thread and the other Venezuela thread and pulled everything I could find that wasn't just a Wikipedia link, or some shapeless statements about the obviousness of the fact that the elections were rigged. Here's what I was able to find:

I mean for fuck’s sake Maduro bribed starving people with food from government stores if they voted for him.

Providing food and services to people so that they will vote for you is not "rigging an election". It's practically the point of having an election in first place. I know it can be easy to forget this the US, where politicians serve lobbyists and special interests rather than voters.

Are you fucking kidding me. What Maduro did is called bribing people for their votes and is something you go to prison for in most developed countries. It’s a very common way to rig elections in dictatorships like Venezuela after the Chavez/Maduro coup though.

Attempting to equate this to the social services regimes normal countries set up is either baffling ignorance, ideological blindness, or willful dishonesty. What you wrote is like something a paropaganda outfit would say.

I mean did you really think Maduro increased from 50.6% support to nearly 70% support over the last 5 years when those years have yielded an unprecedented economic collapse, mass hunger, and the continuing disintegration of society?

Yeah, I think it's entirely possible, if people don't believe Maduro is to blame for the economic collapse, and if they believe that another government would be worse. In fact, you even said so yourself in that very thread:

While I know very little about Venezuelan politics I don't get the sense that the average person there believes Maduro is purposefully starving them.

So no, two very weak arguments, one of which you destroyed yourself, is not compelling evidence that the election was rigged.

You are embarrassing yourself now. Saying I don’t believe people think he is attempting to murder them through starvation does not in any way speak to whether or not Maduro is rigging the election.

Thank you for basically confirming that your position is that the 2018 election was not rigged. Your opinion comes in marked contrast to basically every one of Venezuela’s neighbors as they also consider the election illegitimate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-recognize-venezuelas-election-idUSKCN1IM19G

Here’s some more about the coup and how Maduro rigged the election:

https://www.electoralintegrityproje...tions-venezuelas-failed-presidential-election

You’re allowing your antipathy towards US foreign policy cause you to reject reality. Maduro is an illegitimate president. HE is the one conducting the coup, not those using the constitution to protect the country.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
Are you fucking kidding me. What Maduro did is called bribing people for their votes and is something you go to prison for in most developed countries. It’s a very common way to rig elections in dictatorships like Venezuela after the Chavez/Maduro coup though.

Attempting to equate this to the social services regimes normal countries set up is either baffling ignorance, ideological blindness, or willful dishonesty. What you wrote is like something a paropaganda outfit would say.

He did nothing of the sort. This is an odious lie in service of imperial propaganda.

In his speech, Maduro told supporters that all those who vote showing a government-issued “Fatherland Card,” which is needed to access certain welfare programs, probably would receive “a really good prize.”

He did not give details but critics say that, and other pre-election cash and other bonuses via the card, is akin to vote bribery. Voting in Venezuela is secret but state workers say they are constantly pressured to support the government.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-censure-offers-prize-to-voters-idUSKBN1I41KK

You are embarrassing yourself now. Saying I don’t believe people think he is attempting to murder them through starvation does not in any way speak to whether or not Maduro is rigging the election.

It speaks to how Maduro could still have the support of 68% of voters.

Thank you for basically confirming that your position is that the 2018 election was not rigged. Your opinion comes in marked contrast to basically every one of Venezuela’s neighbors as they also consider the election illegitimate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-recognize-venezuelas-election-idUSKCN1IM19G

Here’s some more about the coup and how Maduro rigged the election:

https://www.electoralintegrityproje...tions-venezuelas-failed-presidential-election

You’re allowing your antipathy towards US foreign policy cause you to reject reality. Maduro is an illegitimate president. HE is the one conducting the coup, not those using the constitution to protect the country.

I don't have a position on the election, I refuse to call the election rigged because that's the pretext you want to use to justify all sorts of American interference. It's bullshit, I won't do it.

Now I have some questions for you:

1. You've stated repeatedly that you oppose American military intervention. Do you oppose or support American non-military interference, including publicly supporting the opposition, imposing severe sanctions on Venezuela, and possibly taking Venezuela's gold reserves?

2. Do you agree that such interference makes a violent power struggle more likely?

3. Do you agree that the majority of the Venezuelan support peaceful negotiations between Maduro's government and the opposition?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,980
47,897
136
He did nothing of the sort. This is an odious lie in service of imperial propaganda.

In his speech, Maduro told supporters that all those who vote showing a government-issued “Fatherland Card,” which is needed to access certain welfare programs, probably would receive “a really good prize.”

He did not give details but critics say that, and other pre-election cash and other bonuses via the card, is akin to vote bribery. Voting in Venezuela is secret but state workers say they are constantly pressured to support the government.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-censure-offers-prize-to-voters-idUSKBN1I41KK

You have lost your mind. Your own link supports me.

It speaks to how Maduro could still have the support of 68% of voters.

I don't have a position on the election, I refuse to call the election rigged because that's the pretext you want to use to justify all sorts of American interference. It's bullshit, I won't do it.

I haven’t attempted to justify any interference. The vote is either rigged or it is not based on the evidence, not what you think people will do with the evidence.

Is there any particular reason you did not address all the other groups that also call the election rigged? Are they all wrong too? If not, why are you discounting their evaluation? Are they part of the conspiracy?

Once again. In your opinion was the election legitimate? If it was not, the presidency is not validly filled so the actions of the National Assembly are not just appropriate but required.

Now I have some questions for you:

1. You've stated repeatedly that you oppose American military intervention. Do you oppose or support American non-military interference, including publicly supporting the opposition, imposing severe sanctions on Venezuela, and possibly taking Venezuela's gold reserves?

2. Do you agree that such interference makes a violent power struggle more likely?

3. Do you agree that the majority of the Venezuelan support peaceful negotiations between Maduro's government and the opposition?

Sorry, until you answer my very simple question I will not answer yours.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I think Blackjack & Fski need to get a room...

I also think sanctions are ridiculous, particularly when the rationale is that the Venezuelans are corrupt. I seriously doubt they could be more corrupt than the Saudis, the Nigerians & other friends of Big Oil.

It's not like they've invaded their neighbors, either, like Donnie's Russian friends.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
You have lost your mind. Your own link supports me.

I'm not surprised you think that.

I haven’t attempted to justify any interference. The vote is either rigged or it is not based on the evidence, not what you think people will do with the evidence.

Is there any particular reason you did not address all the other groups that also call the election rigged? Are they all wrong too? If not, why are you discounting their evaluation? Are they part of the conspiracy?

A bunch of foreign ministers of capitalist states criticizing a socialist state can be dismissed out of hand.

Once again. In your opinion was the election legitimate? If it was not, the presidency is not validly filled so the actions of the National Assembly are not just appropriate but required.

Sorry, until you answer my very simple question I will not answer yours.

My answer is that you have not presented any compelling evidence that the election was not legitimate.

You don't really need to answer my questions, they were rhetorical and made my point entirely.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,980
47,897
136
I'm not surprised you think that.

I mean it was pretty obvious from the text.

A bunch of foreign ministers of capitalist states criticizing a socialist state can be dismissed out of hand.

Capitalist countries are by definition not allowed to criticize socialist ones? Hahaha, what sort of ridiculous nonsense is this? Does that work both ways, that socialist countries are not allowed to criticize capitalist ones?

And why on earth does a country’s economic structure prevent it from criticizing another country rigging its elections?

My answer is that you have not presented any compelling evidence that the election was not legitimate.

You don't really need to answer my questions, they were rhetorical and made my point entirely.

Other than reports from the ground, the jailing and banning of opposition, the statements of virtually all Venezuela’s neighbors, and an independent observer of election practices of course.

Your dismissal of evidence that threatens your views like this is only showing you to be ideologically driven and irrational.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
Capitalist countries are by definition not allowed to criticize socialist ones? Hahaha, what sort of ridiculous nonsense is this?

Quite the contrary, these criticisms are inevitable, that's why they can be dismissed.

Does that work both ways, that socialist countries are not allowed to criticize capitalist ones?

Yes, it works both ways in that capitalist countries always ignore criticism from socialist countries.

And why on earth does a country’s economic structure prevent it from criticizing another country rigging its elections?

It clearly doesn't.

Other than reports from the ground, the jailing and banning of opposition, the statements of virtually all Venezuela’s neighbors, and an independent observer of election practices of course.

Links please, so I can laugh at you like I did when you thought that the president urging people to vote amounted to bribes.

Your dismissal of evidence that threatens your views like this is only showing you to be ideologically driven and irrational.

I wonder what views you think have been threatened by your "evidence".
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,980
47,897
136
Quite the contrary, these criticisms are inevitable, that's why they can be dismissed.

This is irrational. Just because criticism can be expected means zero as to its validity. How on earth can you think something so silly.

Yes, it works both ways in that capitalist countries always ignore criticism from socialist countries.

First, untrue. Second, irrelevant. The validity of criticism does not depend on that.

It clearly doesn't.

It clearly does, as you’ve decided that socialist countries can only be criticized by other socialist countries. North Korea will be happy to hear this.

Links please, so I can laugh at you like I did when you thought that the president urging people to vote amounted to bribes.

That is in the links already provided. Thank you for demonstrating that you did not bother to read links before dismissing them.

I wonder what views you think have been threatened by your "evidence".

Uhmm, I’ve rarely seen a better case of motivated reasoning on here. You want the US to be bad here and therefore the challenge to Maduro’s rule must be illegitimate. When provided with evidence that the challenge is legitimate you conjure up ridiculous rules like ‘only socialist counties can criticize Venezuela’. This is because you can’t engage with the issue on the substance and have resorted to defensive thinking.

It sucks to see liberal people engage in exactly the sort of dumb denialism that we see from the MAGA crowd. You hate them but you’re exactly the same kind of thinker.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,980
47,897
136
I think Blackjack & Fski need to get a room...

I also think sanctions are ridiculous, particularly when the rationale is that the Venezuelans are corrupt. I seriously doubt they could be more corrupt than the Saudis, the Nigerians & other friends of Big Oil.

It's not like they've invaded their neighbors, either, like Donnie's Russian friends.

Ahh, you know I’m drawn to dumb thinking like a moth to a flame. I mean can you imagine a stupider thing to say than that Venezuela may not be criticized by non-socialist countries?

Okay I can imagine stupider things but that is still extremely stupid.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
This is irrational. Just because criticism can be expected means zero as to its validity. How on earth can you think something so silly.

Quite rational. If you know someone will criticize you no matter what you do, you’re not going to put any stock in their criticism.

First, untrue. Second, irrelevant. The validity of criticism does not depend on that.

Is there an example of a capitalist country not ignoring criticism from socialist countries? One doesn’t come immediately to mind.

It clearly does, as you’ve decided that socialist countries can only be criticized by other socialist countries. North Korea will be happy to hear this.

Why does North Korea care about that? Their problem is not criticism, their problem is international isolation and the deliberate starvation of their people by outside countries. And this is not a defense, in any way of KJU.

That is in the links already provided. Thank you for demonstrating that you did not bother to read links before dismissing them.

Haha, I did read them but I guess you’re just angry that they don’t say what you want them to say.

Uhmm, I’ve rarely seen a better case of motivated reasoning on here. You want the US to be bad here and therefore the challenge to Maduro’s rule must be illegitimate. When provided with evidence that the challenge is legitimate you conjure up ridiculous rules like ‘only socialist counties can criticize Venezuela’. This is because you can’t engage with the issue on the substance and have resorted to defensive thinking.

Why did you call Maduro a monster?

It sucks to see liberal people engage in exactly the sort of dumb denialism that we see from the MAGA crowd. You hate them but you’re exactly the same kind of thinker.

I prefer the MAGA crowd to the bloodless imperialists that can always dream up justifications for American involvement in the affairs of oil rich sovereign states.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,980
47,897
136
Quite rational. If you know someone will criticize you no matter what you do, you’re not going to put any stock in their criticism.

If you’re a fool, sure.

Is there an example of a capitalist country not ignoring criticism from socialist countries? One doesn’t come immediately to mind.

You are literally an example of how this is untrue.

Why does North Korea care about that? Their problem is not criticism, their problem is international isolation and the deliberate starvation of their people by outside countries. And this is not a defense, in any way of KJU.

Holy shit you’re now blaming other countries for North Korea’s situation?

Jesus fucking Christ.

Haha, I did read them but I guess you’re just angry that they don’t say what you want them to say.

You just literally showed how you did not read them by asking for links for things those links already provided.

Like... wtf.

Why did you call Maduro a monster?

His indifference to suffering, his willingness to use violence, his placement of power and ideology over the welfare of his people, etc.

I prefer the MAGA crowd to the bloodless imperialists that can always dream up justifications for American involvement in the affairs of oil rich sovereign states.

That makes a lot of sense to me, you guys think alike and you’re similarly uncaring as to what the facts are.

I have to say, thanks for the Spidey level quote that capitalist countries can’t criticize socialist ones. That was special.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
You are literally an example of how this is untrue.

Are you... calling me a capitalist country?

Holy shit you’re now blaming other countries for North Korea’s situation?

Jesus fucking Christ.

Honestly, the performative incredulity is much less impressive than you think it is. Do you ever get off your fainting couch?

Outside the American media bubble the idea that economic sanctions are a major cause of famine in North Korea is not the least bit controversial.

His indifference to suffering, his willingness to use violence, his placement of power and ideology over the welfare of his people, etc.

Weird that the Venezuelan people are so supportive of a president that is violent and indifferent to their suffering.

That makes a lot of sense to me, you guys think alike and you’re similarly uncaring as to what the facts are.

I have to say, thanks for the Spidey level quote that capitalist countries can’t criticize socialist ones. That was special.

Yup, it’s not surprising that you think that. After all, you have no framework to understand the rise in nativism and fascism that we’ve seen in America and Europe recently. Indeed, the anger on the right makes no sense to you because you’ve been happily shoveling the bullshit fed to you by American corporate media down your gullet for decades now. So all you know is (mostly) steadily rising GDP, (mostly) steadily falling unemployment, and increased acceptance of some marginalized groups (gays, trans people, etc.)

So for you, Donald Trump may as well have been dropped off by a spaceship. His politics, his appeal, and his grotesque fans, don’t fit into your sense of reality. Thus they are simply “idiots” (or ‘uncaring as to what the facts are’, if you prefer), and their existence deserves no further examination than that.

I say all this with some confidence because 10 years ago that’s how I thought too. It’s very easy to recognize. The difference between you and me is how we coped with the disappointment of Obama’s presidency, and the disappointment in the appeal, and ultimate success, of Donald Trump’s campaign. That difference is representative of the increasing split between the “left” if you will, and the remaining traditional “New Democrats”.

I coped with it by rejecting my old worldview as a failure. Empirically wrong, as the worldview simply could not explain the triumph of Trump’s campaign (even taking into consideration that he substantially lost the popular vote, I believed in 2015, as did many others, that he would lose in a landslide if he was nominated.)

You, and Rachel Maddow, and most of the New Democrats on this board, most of the Democratic Party, and most of the “establishment liberals” coped with it by blaming the result on some kind of interference or unique circumstance. The flavor doesn’t really matter too much: Russia, Comey, Wikileaks, the electoral college, whatever. The point of it all is that if you can dismiss the election results as tainted then you don’t need to do anything with your worldview. You can keep believing the same bullshit you believed in 2009.

Nativism and fascism are diametrically opposed to socialism and internationalism. I think you sense that, and I think its partly why you compared me to a MAGA chud. But while I imagine that we’re both disgusted by MAGA chuds, I see them differently than you do. As a fundamentally incurious person, you think MAGA chuds exist because they exist, that they are simply a feature of the landscape, without any genesis or antecedent. I see them as a natural and inevitable byproduct of the pathological economic system we live in.

So yes, I can see why we look similar to such a dim bulb. We both reject your worldview, and we’re both unimpressed with your sophistic “fact based” arguments.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,980
47,897
136
Are you... calling me a capitalist country?

No, I’m saying that capitalist countries have most certainly internalized socialist critiques and you’re a living example of that. The same is true in reverse.

Honestly, the performative incredulity is much less impressive than you think it is. Do you ever get off your fainting couch?

Outside the American media bubble the idea that economic sanctions are a major cause of famine in North Korea is not the least bit controversial.

While I have no idea how you are attempting to operationalize ‘a major cause’ the overwhelming cause of North Korean famine is gross mismanagement by the government. This is not the least bit controversial.

Oh wait, am I not allowed to say that as I’m not a socialist?

Weird that the Venezuelan people are so supportive of a president that is violent and indifferent to their suffering.

It is odd! Almost makes you wonder if that support is bullshit. Also, beloved leaders rarely have to go on a wave of arrests and crackdowns to try and limit protests against them.

Yup, it’s not surprising that you think that. After all, you have no framework to understand the rise in nativism and fascism that we’ve seen in America and Europe recently. Indeed, the anger on the right makes no sense to you because you’ve been happily shoveling the bullshit fed to you by American corporate media down your gullet for decades now. So all you know is (mostly) steadily rising GDP, (mostly) steadily falling unemployment, and increased acceptance of some marginalized groups (gays, trans people, etc.)

So for you, Donald Trump may as well have been dropped off by a spaceship. His politics, his appeal, and his grotesque fans, don’t fit into your sense of reality. Thus they are simply “idiots” (or ‘uncaring as to what the facts are’, if you prefer), and their existence deserves no further examination than that.

I say all this with some confidence because 10 years ago that’s how I thought too. It’s very easy to recognize. The difference between you and me is how we coped with the disappointment of Obama’s presidency, and the disappointment in the appeal, and ultimate success, of Donald Trump’s campaign. That difference is representative of the increasing split between the “left” if you will, and the remaining traditional “New Democrats”.

I coped with it by rejecting my old worldview as a failure. Empirically wrong, as the worldview simply could not explain the triumph of Trump’s campaign (even taking into consideration that he substantially lost the popular vote, I believed in 2015, as did many others, that he would lose in a landslide if he was nominated.)

You, and Rachel Maddow, and most of the New Democrats on this board, most of the Democratic Party, and most of the “establishment liberals” coped with it by blaming the result on some kind of interference or unique circumstance. The flavor doesn’t really matter too much: Russia, Comey, Wikileaks, the electoral college, whatever. The point of it all is that if you can dismiss the election results as tainted then you don’t need to do anything with your worldview. You can keep believing the same bullshit you believed in 2009.

Nativism and fascism are diametrically opposed to socialism and internationalism. I think you sense that, and I think its partly why you compared me to a MAGA chud. But while I imagine that we’re both disgusted by MAGA chuds, I see them differently than you do. As a fundamentally incurious person, you think MAGA chuds exist because they exist, that they are simply a feature of the landscape, without any genesis or antecedent. I see them as a natural and inevitable byproduct of the pathological economic system we live in.

So yes, I can see why we look similar to such a dim bulb. We both reject your worldview, and we’re both unimpressed with your sophistic “fact based” arguments.

What a load of self-deluding bullshit. Racist, nativist political movements aren’t remotely new to this country or any other.

Two pretty sweet ironies however, first, earlier you were arguing that US elections are rigged and now are complaining about others saying it was rigged. Second, if you want to find basically the most racist and nativist country in the world you don’t need to look beyond socialist North Korea.

You and the MAGA chuds are alike because you decided you want to believe something and any contrary information is a product of fake news/capitalist propaganda against you. If only you guys were capable of examining the failures in your logic as you claim, then you wouldn’t need to make these excuses.