5-stroke engine concept

[thomsbrain]

llmor Motors 5-stroke, 3-cylinder design - Motor Authority link

 

[PlasmaBomb]

I will see your five stroke and raise you...

By the way if their prototype produces 130 BHP from 700 cc then the power density isn't 150 BHP/l, just to let you know...

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

By the way if their prototype produces 130 BHP from 700 cc then the power density isn't 150 BHP/l, just to let you know...

Read the article. They have built the 700 cc engine with the stated figures but they are HOPING to achieve 150 HP/L in production engines.

 

[BW86]

interesting

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

By the way if their prototype produces 130 BHP from 700 cc then the power density isn't 150 BHP/l, just to let you know...

Read the article. They have built the 700 cc engine with the stated figures but they are HOPING to achieve 150 HP/L in production engines.

Their prototype achieves 185 HP/L

I'm just surprised that they are aiming at lowering it... I guess they are running into reliability issues during extended use. Ilmor know what they are doing 🙂

If the engine is compact enough there could be interesting uses for it...

But I get the feeling it is being compared to a diesel.

 

[mwmorph]

Interesting, but I immediately see some problems such as space issues and balancing issues that should be inherent in this design.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Interesting, but I immediately see some problems such as space issues and balancing issues that should be inherent in this design.

Didn't read the article, did you?

The engine is also more compact, and unlike other new technologies does not require any new manufacturing techniques.

If they can fit a diesel engine in a VW, they can fit one of these, I'm sure.

Balancing/vibration issues already exist in modern 4-cylinder engines, which is why almost all of them have a counter shaft the smooth out vibration.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

By the way if their prototype produces 130 BHP from 700 cc then the power density isn't 150 BHP/l, just to let you know...

Read the article. They have built the 700 cc engine with the stated figures but they are HOPING to achieve 150 HP/L in production engines.

The prototype may be lacking all the emissions, a reasonable production style intake, air filter, or exhaust. For the prototype they may have used a stand alone cooling system and lubrication system rather than engine powered pumps.

They know what they're doing. If they're predicting less power/liter I'm sure they have a good reason for it.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Interesting, but I immediately see some problems such as space issues and balancing issues that should be inherent in this design.

Didn't read the article, did you?

The engine is also more compact, and unlike other new technologies does not require any new manufacturing techniques.

If they can fit a diesel engine in a VW, they can fit one of these, I'm sure.

Balancing/vibration issues already exist in modern 4-cylinder engines, which is why almost all of them have a counter shaft the smooth out vibration.

Really? Think it through... 😕

Get it market ready with asymmetrical cylinder sizes. a 2-1 (large small) ratio does not make packaging easy like a 1-1 (large small) ratio or a engine with all cylinders the same size.

Furthermore this forces engines to have cylinder counts in factors of 3. A I3 is one of the least balanced configurations, a V6 with this config would be shaky also from different kinetic forces front to rear and side to side.

Fitting a diesel in a VW has nothing to do with this, these share nothing in common.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Interesting, but I immediately see some problems such as space issues and balancing issues that should be inherent in this design.

Didn't read the article, did you?

The engine is also more compact, and unlike other new technologies does not require any new manufacturing techniques.

If they can fit a diesel engine in a VW, they can fit one of these, I'm sure.

Balancing/vibration issues already exist in modern 4-cylinder engines, which is why almost all of them have a counter shaft the smooth out vibration.

Really? Think it through... 😕

Get it market ready with asymmetrical cylinder sizes. a 2-1 (large small) ratio does not make packaging easy like a 1-1 (large small) ratio or a engine with all cylinders the same size.

Furthermore this forces engines to have cylinder counts in factors of 3. A I3 is one of the least balanced configurations, a V6 with this config would be shaky also from different kinetic forces front to rear and side to side.

Fitting a diesel in a VW has nothing to do with this, these share nothing in common.

It doesn't matter how many cylinders the engine has, how they're arranged or what size they are, it can be balanced with counter weights.

Fitting a diesel in a VW absolutely has to do with you saying that you foresee space issues. Space issue implies there's not room for it, which implies it's too large or the engine bay is too small. The article says it's compact when compared to a diesel engine. If a diesel engine fits, this more compact engine will fit.

 

[Howard]

Perfect match for VGTs if you're talking efficiency, because the EGT will be much, much lower. I say efficiency because the low EGTs won't spool a turbo as quickly.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Interesting, but I immediately see some problems such as space issues and balancing issues that should be inherent in this design.

Didn't read the article, did you?

The engine is also more compact, and unlike other new technologies does not require any new manufacturing techniques.

If they can fit a diesel engine in a VW, they can fit one of these, I'm sure.

Balancing/vibration issues already exist in modern 4-cylinder engines, which is why almost all of them have a counter shaft the smooth out vibration.

Really? Think it through... 😕

Get it market ready with asymmetrical cylinder sizes. a 2-1 (large small) ratio does not make packaging easy like a 1-1 (large small) ratio or a engine with all cylinders the same size.

Furthermore this forces engines to have cylinder counts in factors of 3. A I3 is one of the least balanced configurations, a V6 with this config would be shaky also from different kinetic forces front to rear and side to side.

Fitting a diesel in a VW has nothing to do with this, these share nothing in common.

It doesn't matter how many cylinders the engine has, how they're arranged or what size they are, it can be balanced with counter weights.

Fitting a diesel in a VW absolutely has to do with you saying that you foresee space issues. Space issue implies there's not room for it, which implies it's too large or the engine bay is too small. The article says it's compact when compared to a diesel engine. If a diesel engine fits, this more compact engine will fit.

If you've ever worked with designing engines, perfectly primary balance is achievable theoretically with any configuration, but secondary balance is not. Further due to difficulties, it would cost more and be more difficult to primary balance this configuration because of uneven piston sizes. To compound that, all secondary balances will be incredibly skewed because of this piston, connecting rod and crankshaft mass discrepancy.

Compact compared to what diesel engine? Same power and displacement? Same fuel usage? A 700cc 5 stroke v.s. a 1.4L turbodiesel? The truth of the amtter is, it's going to take a lot of development to bring this engine to light and it's going to take even more to make it civilized. On top of that, it's not going to hit the NVH that a Otto cycle enjoys.

I'm not trying to dismiss the idea, just put a more realistic view on it. It's not production ready, it wont be for a while until they work out all the kinks and it's not a magic silver bullet. It's a good idea, but it's no holy grail.

 

[Jeff7181]

You're trying to put a more realistic view on it? What's unrealistic about, "The engine is just a concept for now, with further development expected to take place?" Who said this was a holy grail? It's an improvement on the traditional 4-stroke internal combustion gasoline engine. I just don't get why you're so quick to try to put a negative spin on it when you clearly didn't rear the article very closely. You assumed size would be a problem... according to the article, it's not. You questioned the efficiency when the article states a 5-20% increase in efficiency. You question the fuel mileage when the article states it's on par with current diesel engines. You question the design of a company that builds Formula 1 and Indy car engines as if this is the idea of some redneck in a garage that scribbled down a drawing on the back of a Playboy while taking a dump.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
You're trying to put a more realistic view on it? What's unrealistic about, "The engine is just a concept for now, with further development expected to take place?" Who said this was a holy grail? It's an improvement on the traditional 4-stroke internal combustion gasoline engine. I just don't get why you're so quick to try to put a negative spin on it when you clearly didn't rear the article very closely. You assumed size would be a problem... according to the article, it's not. You questioned the efficiency when the article states a 5-20% increase in efficiency. You question the fuel mileage when the article states it's on par with current diesel engines. You question the design of a company that builds Formula 1 and Indy car engines as if this is the idea of some redneck in a garage that scribbled down a drawing on the back of a Playboy while taking a dump.

I'm trying to put a balanced spin on the article. The article reads more like marketing material.

The fact of the matter is, this article propose this as some miracle drop in replacement for current engines, but the reality is it probably will be never adopted, when you truly get down to it in any mass produced way. It takes a lot of marketing claims, very little science and proposes it as the next big thing. I've heard that line all to much, and I don't see it happening.

I also never questioned the efficiency, the general idea has been tried many, many times.

The fact of the matter is, the article presents this in rose colored glasses.

 

[Eli]

Very interesting! I'm all for it!

:thumbsup:

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Interesting, but I immediately see some problems such as space issues and balancing issues that should be inherent in this design.

Didn't read the article, did you?

The engine is also more compact, and unlike other new technologies does not require any new manufacturing techniques.

If they can fit a diesel engine in a VW, they can fit one of these, I'm sure.

Balancing/vibration issues already exist in modern 4-cylinder engines, which is why almost all of them have a counter shaft the smooth out vibration.

Really? Think it through... 😕

Get it market ready with asymmetrical cylinder sizes. a 2-1 (large small) ratio does not make packaging easy like a 1-1 (large small) ratio or a engine with all cylinders the same size.

Furthermore this forces engines to have cylinder counts in factors of 3. A I3 is one of the least balanced configurations, a V6 with this config would be shaky also from different kinetic forces front to rear and side to side.

Fitting a diesel in a VW has nothing to do with this, these share nothing in common.

It doesn't matter how many cylinders the engine has, how they're arranged or what size they are, it can be balanced with counter weights.

Fitting a diesel in a VW absolutely has to do with you saying that you foresee space issues. Space issue implies there's not room for it, which implies it's too large or the engine bay is too small. The article says it's compact when compared to a diesel engine. If a diesel engine fits, this more compact engine will fit.

If you've ever worked with designing engines, perfectly primary balance is achievable theoretically with any configuration, but secondary balance is not. Further due to difficulties, it would cost more and be more difficult to primary balance this configuration because of uneven piston sizes. To compound that, all secondary balances will be incredibly skewed because of this piston, connecting rod and crankshaft mass discrepancy.

Compact compared to what diesel engine? Same power and displacement? Same fuel usage? A 700cc 5 stroke v.s. a 1.4L turbodiesel? The truth of the amtter is, it's going to take a lot of development to bring this engine to light and it's going to take even more to make it civilized. On top of that, it's not going to hit the NVH that a Otto cycle enjoys.

I'm not trying to dismiss the idea, just put a more realistic view on it. It's not production ready, it wont be for a while until they work out all the kinks and it's not a magic silver bullet. It's a good idea, but it's no holy grail.

I don't think you really know what you're talking about, and I don't think any of us know enough about this engine and the design of it to really comment on the technicalities.

FWIW, the engine in my Insight is a 3 cylinder and it's smooth all the way up to redline. It is not hard to balance an engine.

 

[SickBeast]

I wonder if these new engine designs use direct injection, or if that would make them even more efficient. :Q

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I wonder if these new engine designs use direct injection, or if that would make them even more efficient. :Q

I assumed they did seeing as how they're calling the two smaller cylinders high pressure cylinders. I'm guessing compression ratio is likely on par with a diesel.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I wonder if these new engine designs use direct injection, or if that would make them even more efficient. :Q

I assumed they did seeing as how they're calling the two smaller cylinders high pressure cylinders. I'm guessing compression ratio is likely on par with a diesel.

Compression in the high pressure cylinders is ~14.5:1

Gas < Ilmor < Diesel

 

[Docroc]

Actually the compression is around 7:1 with the compound expansion in the 14.5:1 range.
The balance is identical to a inline 4 cylinder given balancing of the rotating and reciprocating masses. If you were to create a 90 degree V6 with two of these it would have the balance of V8 given the apprpriate counter weights on the crank, though it would be uneven firing order.
For those that would like to know more you can look here to the inventors page.
http://www.jodocy-schmitz.com/...roke_10_Milestones.htm
here is a very good paper on it.
http://www.jodocy-schmitz.com/...ibung%20&%20Studie.pdf
or for those who would like to bone up on engine balance.
http://www.autozine.org/techni...ool/engine/smooth1.htm
If you are going to give an opinion about something be sure you are informed.

 

[SparkyJJO]

HP/L. Heh I love that.... 150 HP/L but at what RPM, and with how much peak torque at what RPM? That's the real question.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Docroc
Actually the compression is around 7:1 with the compound expansion in the 14.5:1 range.
The balance is identical to a inline 4 cylinder given balancing of the rotating and reciprocating masses. If you were to create a 90 degree V6 with two of these it would have the balance of V8 given the apprpriate counter weights on the crank, though it would be uneven firing order.
For those that would like to know more you can look here to the inventors page.
http://www.jodocy-schmitz.com/...roke_10_Milestones.htm
here is a very good paper on it.
http://www.jodocy-schmitz.com/...ibung%20&%20Studie.pdf
or for those who would like to bone up on engine balance.
http://www.autozine.org/techni...ool/engine/smooth1.htm
If you are going to give an opinion about something be sure you are informed.

Free... er, welcome to the forums!

 

[KIAman]

Originally posted by: Docroc
Actually the compression is around 7:1 with the compound expansion in the 14.5:1 range.
The balance is identical to a inline 4 cylinder given balancing of the rotating and reciprocating masses. If you were to create a 90 degree V6 with two of these it would have the balance of V8 given the apprpriate counter weights on the crank, though it would be uneven firing order.
For those that would like to know more you can look here to the inventors page.
http://www.jodocy-schmitz.com/...roke_10_Milestones.htm
here is a very good paper on it.
http://www.jodocy-schmitz.com/...ibung%20&%20Studie.pdf
or for those who would like to bone up on engine balance.
http://www.autozine.org/techni...ool/engine/smooth1.htm
If you are going to give an opinion about something be sure you are informed.

Thanks for the links, very informative, especially the last one on engine balance. Now I really appreciate my beemer.

 

[beat mania]

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
HP/L. Heh I love that.... 150 HP/L but at what RPM, and with how much peak torque at what RPM? That's the real question.

Yeah, plenty of liter bikes can get over 150hp/L if you rev the hell out of it. Big whoop.