Build Complete [5/27/24 - OC results] Bow before me I built a new rig. Boy, things have come a long way.

[Zeze]

returning both mobo and CPU.

Spoke to the manager yesterday. He will help me out replacing both and also apply 15% discount.

Will report back.

 

[Brainonska511]

Hopefully you can get something that works well together.

Did you ever try to run the RAM at the maximum, officially supported speed of 5200 MHz?

I would also note, the second RAM kit you received is neither on G.Skill's QVL list for your motherboard, nor is it on your motherboard's QVL list (Part F5-6000J3040G32GX2-TZ5RK):

F5-6000J3040G32GX2-TZ5RK F5-6000J3040G32GA2-TZ5RK - QVL - G.SKILL International Enterprise Co., Ltd.

QVL (Qualified Vendor List) for F5-6000J3040G32GX2-TZ5RK F5-6000J3040G32GA2-TZ5RK. Find compatible motherboard or hardware for this product.

www.gskill.com

PRO B650-P WIFI

PRO series motherboards tuned for better performance by DDR5 memory with Memory Boost, Lightning Gen4 PCIe, Extended Heatsink, M.2 Shield Frozr, Wi-Fi 6E, 2.5G LAN, USB 3.2 Gen 2x2

www.msi.com

 

[Zeze]

I see. But it works well with advertised speed and no issues with stress test. (PC6000 cl30)

I just can't get to bios once turning on exp.

Also it behaves exactly the same across two sets of ram.

So these point me to CPU or mobo. Mobo was replaced once already. So it has to be CPU or very specific model of my mobo.

I'm replacing both anyways.

 

[Brainonska511]

I see. But it works well with advertised speed and no issues with street test.

I just can't get to bios once turning on exp.

It could just be one of the only bugs when you have that combination. Presumably, you were also running the latest BIOS (7D78v1C) which could potentially fix some DDR5 compatibility.

The QVL is certainly not the be-all-end-all of compatibility, but it is generally a good place to start when you're trying to rule out these weird bugs.

For a real-world example of QVLs not always being necessary to follow: in my Alder Lake desktop, my RAM is only on G.Skill's QVL, not on MSI's QVL, and I also have 4 sticks made from 2 separate kits of the same model (one has Samsung chips and one has SK Hynix chips). Runs fine at XMP of 3200 MHz. Though, if I had problems, I probably would have gone back to the MSI QVL and purchased either a 2x16GB kit or a 4x8GB kit on the list.

 

[Zeze]

When did ram get so complicated?

Before dual channel you can just get 4 sticks of two diff brands just fine and it just works with the slowest speed.

Now there's all these ddr5 ram training at each boot (why) and slow boot times, hanging, etc.

Now rams are now Intel v AMD specific?

 

[In2Photos]

When did ram get so complicated?

Before dual channel you can just get 4 sticks of two diff brands just fine and it just works with the slowest speed.

Now there's all these ddr5 ram training at each boot (why) and slow boot times, hanging, etc.

Now rams are now Intel v AMD specific?

Before dual channel most systems ran at the speeds listed on the sticks. XMP/EXPO is considered overclocking. As you mentioned you didn't have any problems when running at stock speeds. Only when you enabled XMP/EXPO, right?

If you want perfect stability and slower boot times, don't overclock.

 

[Brainonska511]

When did ram get so complicated?

Before dual channel you can just get 4 sticks of two diff brands just fine and it just works with the slowest speed.

Now there's all these ddr5 ram training at each boot (why) and slow boot times, hanging, etc.

Now rams are now Intel v AMD specific?

I think it really came along with the whole XMP/EXPO stuff, a bit of slightly different implementations between Intel and AMD, differing OC abilities of RAM chips (because that process is an OC)...

I agree that it is another annoyance to check and rule out if you are having problems. Particularly annoying when you are buying a bundle too.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I think the answer is dynamic training while the OS is running. An HP Ice Lake laptop my office bought introduced me to something I never thought could be possible. It dynamically switched between three or four different RAM profiles and it could be seen happening in real time in CPU-Z, showing different speeds and timings. It was just plain DDR4 SODIMM so something was definitely different with that laptop. I haven't seen that sort of behavior with any recent laptops but then, I haven't had the occasion to use many recent laptops.

Desktop DDR5 is actually quad channel coz each DIMM has internal dual channel stuff going on. Now that I think about it, I guess actual quad channel with four minimum DIMMs on desktop is avoided by the industry to prevent everyday people from waiting several minutes at boot for the training to complete. There are probably engineering solutions to the training problem but being complicated and expensive leaves us no choice but to accept training as the new reality.

 

[JackMDS]

When Personal Computing started to a general Market (actually when IBM released the first Dektop) standards started to be followed, almost everything was done in the USA and the Players were nice because they wanted to create a Big Market.

Now, it is all over the world and there is strong market players that Started to “”Play Games”” with a Goal to sway parts of Market toward them. It is Not just Mem, it involves other components too, and it is Not going to get better.

 

[Captante]

At this juncture I must say I'm feeling motivated to sit on my (rock-solid stable) AM4/ddr4 system JUST a tad longer!

(sorry)

 

[In2Photos]

At this juncture I must say I'm feeling motivated to sit on my (rock-solid stable) AM4/ddr4 system JUST a tad longer!

(sorry)

I have one AM4 and two AM5 systems in our house and they all have been fine. Occasionally my daughter's AM5 rig will default back to defaults but I think it was due to too much of an undervolt. But the new CPUs for AM5 will likely be out later this year so waiting may not be a bad idea anyway.

 

[lakedude]

We got lucky with our ddr5 6400 build. AFAIK our "Intel" XMP RAM is running great with our AMD 7600X at XMP speeds.

My old Lynnfield system was rock solid.

The Ivy Bridge rig failed memtest, got new RAM, and has now been okay but not 100% stable like the Lynnfield was.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The Ivy Bridge rig failed memtest, got new RAM, and has now been okay but not 100% stable like the Lynnfield was.

Which motherboard and RAM? I used to have 32GB RAM (four sticks) in my Gigabyte Z77 mobo with i3-2100 (Sandy Bridge). It wasn't 100% stable and would sometimes reboot during light workloads like browsing or even just idle. Replaced the Sandy with i7-3770. I think it was much better after that. The Ivy Bridge memory controller must've been higher quality.

 

[Zeze]

I really hate computers. I knew I hated it when I was troubleshooting it in late 90s.

I hate it then I hate it now.

I hate looking at cryptic post beeps or LEDs and having to go through all the BS.

I hate it. I hate you all. I hate myself for being interested in this BS hobby.

Me today
1. Drove to MC and got CPU and mobo replaced.
2. Sigh time to format and start all over.
3. God, took out old mobo, remove everything. Attach it all over again to a new mobo. It's a diff board so now I gotta look at everything.
4. Oh look I ran out of thermal paste. Drive to Best buy.
5. Despite being careful, my CPU fan now makes a louder whirr now. Great.
6. Ok finally new mobo and new CPU is in. Oh. It won't boot.

Frustration... So I clear CMOS first.

7. Yay it boots. Install windows 11...
8. Install all the programs and change settings.
9. Ok so now time to update BIOS before turning on EXPO.
10. Update BIOS success? Now it won't post.
11. I really hate that CMOS battery latch now.
12. CMOS cleared, but still won't post.

Djifhwbflwhdiqbloanxhhskwdn

This whole boot ddr5 ram training thing just set the computer POST progress about 2 decades back. BIOS used to be near instant. Booting to desktop used to take glorious 13 seconds on an SSD with ddr3.

All this BS troubleshooting. God all for what, playing stupid videogames.

 

[manly]

Bro, just buy a PS5. There are gaming-oriented PC builders as well, although it feels icky to buy from one of the big 3. (I read that the Lenovo Legion tower ships a GeForce RTX 4070 with a 500W PSU. )

If Micro Center wasn't too busy, I would have asked if they would bench test the CPU+mainboard+RAM . I believe it's something they're willing to do within the first 60 days of purchase.

If it makes you feel any better, I've gotten as much usage out of my MC 7800X3D build as you apparently have (sans frustration).

 

[igor_kavinski]

10. Update BIOS success? Now it won't post.
11. I really hate that CMOS battery latch now.
12. CMOS cleared, but still won't post.

Djifhwbflwhdiqbloanxhhskwdn

Gigabyte mobos should be good with RAM compatibility but they usually have other quirks you may have to suffer with.

I went with ASROCK for my Z790. Other than the training time nuisance, thankfully it didn't give me any serious grief. I did put myself through some while trying to overclock the EXPO RAM kit I have. The mobo went into deep "WTH did you try to do with me????" tantrum mode a few times and wouldn't turn on. Removed the cable from the back of the PSU, waited a few seconds and turned it back on and it booted. I think I managed to bork it just once where a CMOS reset was required. Then I didn't try to do the same crazy thing again (probably tried to run it at some insanely low timings).

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, I'm done with building.

Edit: Yeah, I used to build a rig every month, out of copious parts I would acquire, mostly from (window-)shopping on Newegg.

Alas, my life force is running out, and I seem to no longer be the PC "savant" that I used to be.

Thus, I just buy budget or just-above laptops, and use them, until my gorilla arms break the hinges.

 

[In2Photos]

I really hate computers. I knew I hated it when I was troubleshooting it in late 90s.

I hate it then I hate it now.

I hate looking at cryptic post beeps or LEDs and having to go through all the BS.

I hate it. I hate you all. I hate myself for being interested in this BS hobby.

Me today
1. Drove to MC and got CPU and mobo replaced.
2. Sigh time to format and start all over.
3. God, took out old mobo, remove everything. Attach it all over again to a new mobo. It's a diff board so now I gotta look at everything.
4. Oh look I ran out of thermal paste. Drive to Best buy.
5. Despite being careful, my CPU fan now makes a louder whirr now. Great.
6. Ok finally new mobo and new CPU is in. Oh. It won't boot.

Frustration... So I clear CMOS first.

7. Yay it boots. Install windows 11...
8. Install all the programs and change settings.
9. Ok so now time to update BIOS before turning on EXPO.
10. Update BIOS success? Now it won't post.
11. I really hate that CMOS battery latch now.
12. CMOS cleared, but still won't post.

Djifhwbflwhdiqbloanxhhskwdn

This whole boot ddr5 ram training thing just set the computer POST progress about 2 decades back. BIOS used to be near instant. Booting to desktop used to take glorious 13 seconds on an SSD with ddr3.

All this BS troubleshooting. God all for what, playing stupid videogames.

Maybe you should just let microcenter build it for you. I think they charge like $75 for a standard build.

 

[Zeze]

Okay now I'm up.

I had to clear CMOS again. I've also learned that what I'm experiencing (can't get to BIOS once EXPO is on; unstable boot; takes long time) is very common across AM5 and DDR5.

 

[In2Photos]

Okay now I'm up.

I had to clear CMOS again. I've also learned that what I'm experiencing (can't get to BIOS once EXPO is on; unstable boot; takes long time) is very common across AM5 and DDR5.

There isn't a single post about your BIOS issue in our 7000 series build thread. Your post is the first I have seen about it and the 7000 series has been out for over 18 months. It's not that common. Longer boot times have been known since launch. It's due to RAM training. There are ways to bypass it, but that can lead to instability. My system takes about 40 seconds from the press of the button to the desktop. My Intel laptop takes about 30. I don't see that as a problem, but others do.

 

[Zeze]

I think it's resolved now... finally.

The good:

• Alright, now the BIOS is updated to the latest version (feb 24).
• EXPO is turned on, and the timing works as advertised.
• I've restarted a few times; I can now see BIOS every time!

The bad:

• What a finnicky piece of crap AM5/DDR5 set up is... god.
• I didn't change anything - just cleared CMOS and Q-flashed to the latest BIOS and it finally worked.

The ugly:

• The CPU fan makes a louder noise from being touched too much I guess (but it was barely touched). It's annoyingly louder. I'll get some different fans.

The silver lining:

• I give props to my local MC. They exchanged my parts beyond the 60 day period and the manager yesterday gave me 15% discount while doing the exchange, netting me a $30~ store credit card.
• I had to buy the thermal paste as it ran out. Turns out it's great. The CPU now idles at 37-40 vs the cheap-o one that came with the CPU cooler was idling at 41-43.

I'll do some stress tests again.

 

[Zeze]

There isn't a single post about it in our 7000 series build thread. Your post is the first I have seen about it and the 7000 series has been out for over 18 months. It's not that common.

Just google DDR5 / boot / AM5

Question - New build boot failure diagnosis... X670/AM5/DDR5

Hello! I'm a long-time hobby computer builder, but rarely have had issues driving me to seek out advice, so I'm new to Tom's Hardware... My church's production computer has been having increasingly more and more issues, so we bit the bullet last week and decided to have me build a new one...

forums.tomshardware.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/18yghig

New PC not booting; DDR5 6000 kit

hey everyone, I got me some new hardware, build a nice new PC, I'm in seventh havean and than I press the power button... get nothing on the display. So I can't go into the BIOS and can't boot the USB to install Windows 11. My best guess is the DDR5 RAM, because my understanding is that I have...

forums.pcgamer.com

Xmp profile won't boot bios (high end pc)

Hey, so I upgraded my whole pc. Got the... Mobo: aorus rog strix z790-e cpu: i9-13900k Ram : 4x32 corsair vengeance ddr5 6400mhz cl32 Gpu: can't decide on the new one so 2060rtx for now When I turn on the xmp profile on in the bios the system won't boot ( computer is on, rgb and fans are running,...

linustechtips.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/xrgtt7

https://hardforum.com/threads/msi-x670e-carbon-wont-reboot-reliably-ddr5-issue.2030440/

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/163j66b/ddr5_is_this_the_culprit_for_the_long_boot_times/

Just google DDR5 / boot / AM5

 

[In2Photos]

Question - New build boot failure diagnosis... X670/AM5/DDR5

Hello! I'm a long-time hobby computer builder, but rarely have had issues driving me to seek out advice, so I'm new to Tom's Hardware... My church's production computer has been having increasingly more and more issues, so we bit the bullet last week and decided to have me build a new one...

forums.tomshardware.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/18yghig

New PC not booting; DDR5 6000 kit

hey everyone, I got me some new hardware, build a nice new PC, I'm in seventh havean and than I press the power button... get nothing on the display. So I can't go into the BIOS and can't boot the USB to install Windows 11. My best guess is the DDR5 RAM, because my understanding is that I have...

forums.pcgamer.com

Xmp profile won't boot bios (high end pc)

Hey, so I upgraded my whole pc. Got the... Mobo: aorus rog strix z790-e cpu: i9-13900k Ram : 4x32 corsair vengeance ddr5 6400mhz cl32 Gpu: can't decide on the new one so 2060rtx for now When I turn on the xmp profile on in the bios the system won't boot ( computer is on, rgb and fans are running,...

linustechtips.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/xrgtt7

https://hardforum.com/threads/msi-x670e-carbon-wont-reboot-reliably-ddr5-issue.2030440/

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/163j66b/ddr5_is_this_the_culprit_for_the_long_boot_times/

Just google DDR5 / boot / AM5

The problems here aren't solely related to AM5/DDR5.

The first post was due to a bent pin on the motherboard socket. That has been a problem since LGA has been in existence.

Your second post is about finding out what works best. AM5 and DDR5 are both first generation for AMD. There are quirks, but even this thread shows that 6000MHz on AM5 works on 99-100% of systems.

The third post required a BIOS update.

The 4th post is someone trying to run 4 sticks at fast XMP on Intel. It will run at rated speeds, not XMP.

Did you actually read any of these or just Google search and post some topics? They are the same questions and problems people had about building PCs before DDR5 and AM5 was available.

 

[Zeze]

The problems here aren't solely related to AM5/DDR5.

The first post was due to a bent pin on the motherboard socket. That has been a problem since LGA has been in existence.

Your second post is about finding out what works best. AM5 and DDR5 are both first generation for AMD. There are quirks, but even this thread shows that 6000MHz on AM5 works on 99-100% of systems.

The third post required a BIOS update.

The 4th post is someone trying to run 4 sticks at fast XMP on Intel. It will run at rated speeds, not XMP.

Did you actually read any of these or just Google search and post some topics? They are the same questions and problems people had about building PCs before DDR5 and AM5 was available.

Too lazy to dig up my history for the fully relevant threads posted by others. If you're not happy with me describing my PC issue as being 'common', then fine. It's 'not unknown'. Alright?

 

[lakedude]

Which motherboard and RAM? I used to have 32GB RAM (four sticks) in my Gigabyte Z77 mobo with i3-2100 (Sandy Bridge). It wasn't 100% stable and would sometimes reboot during light workloads like browsing or even just idle. Replaced the Sandy with i7-3770. I think it was much better after that. The Ivy Bridge memory controller must've been higher quality.

Biostar tz77, Corsair vengeance 1600mhz ddr3 4x4gb