4Runner or GX460

[bigi]

Serious question.

Purpose - family car.

4 Runner Limited clocks at 48K, GX460 is 50-55K.

Anyone?

 

[jlee]

They're similar (based on the same chassis). The GX will be nicer and it comes with a 4.6l V8.

 

[dasherHampton]

What year GX460 are you looking at?

 

[NutBucket]

GX. More for your money and doesn't have the same ridiculous 4Runner tax.

 

[JCH13]

GX all the way. Especially if you get KDSS.

Have you driven both of them? My guess is that if you did, the decision would be easy.

 

[jlee]

GX all the way. Especially if you get KDSS.

Have you driven both of them? My guess is that if you did, the decision would be easy.

460's have KDSS standard, so no worries there

 

[NutBucket]

Real question, does KDSS have any advantage on paved roads?

 

[jlee]

Real question, does KDSS have any advantage on paved roads?

Yes, it's a massive improvement over traditional sway bars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLF6n3nMwww

 

[JCH13]

Real question, does KDSS have any advantage on paved roads?

Yes, it's a massive improvement over traditional sway bars.

XD

But seriously, it's tremendous. The KDSS sway bar is in the area of 2-3x the diameter (4-9x stiffness) of a fixed sway bar, resulting in much less body roll during turns compared to a fixed sway bar. KDSS will allow more articulation when you hit a pot hole or bump with just one wheel, so it is also smoother than a fixed sway bar. It's definitely the best of both worlds, and there's a damn good reason why Lexus made is standard on the 460. I drove a GX470 with and without KDSS and then bent over backwards to buy one with KDSS and was willing pay a 2-3k premium, it was that much better.

 

[dasherHampton]

I see where I erred here. I immediately thought GX470 for some reason.

Still - a new GX460 for $42000? I cant find one under 50 grand where I live.

 

[NutBucket]

2 or 3 years old off lease. That's what I'd buy instead of a new 4Runner.

I didn't realize the advantage of KDSS on road. Makes sense as it can effectively be stiffer than normal sway bar. Thanks!

Ironically I have test-driven a 460 but I guess without a frame of reference I just called the ride "tall body-on-frame SUV". My only comparison point is a late model Suburban.

 

[mindless1]

KDSS looks interesting and probably worthwhile for the first several years of ownership. After that point it seems like extra repair expense, not just complete failure but something you periodically need to replace to retain the performance, like shocks, and seems limiting (if not preventative) if you were to want to raise the vehicle for larger tire clearance.

Similarly you will probably find a lot more peer support for DIY repairs in a 4Runner forum, but more generic advice for the GX could also be found in other forums.

 

[jlee]

KDSS looks interesting and probably worthwhile for the first several years of ownership. After that point it seems like extra repair expense, not just complete failure but something you periodically need to replace to retain the performance, like shocks, and seems limiting (if not preventative) if you were to want to raise the vehicle for larger tire clearance.

Similarly you will probably find a lot more peer support for DIY repairs in a 4Runner forum, but more generic advice for the GX could also be found in other forums.

2005 with 198,9xx, zero KDSS problems.

 

[JCH13]

KDSS looks interesting and probably worthwhile for the first several years of ownership. After that point it seems like extra repair expense, not just complete failure but something you periodically need to replace to retain the performance, like shocks, and seems limiting (if not preventative) if you were to want to raise the vehicle for larger tire clearance.

Similarly you will probably find a lot more peer support for DIY repairs in a 4Runner forum, but more generic advice for the GX could also be found in other forums.

Mine is lifted and has slightly bigger tires (JLee's is lifted more, with bigger tires). 188k, no KDSS issues, and no evidence that the KDSS system has ever been touched. When lifting suspension the sway bar simply rotates, the KDSS cylinders are unaffected. It's a remarkably simply system with no noted maintenance points.

Also, as for community support, 4Runner and Landcruisers are so similar that a vast majority of that collective knowledge transfers over perfectly. GXOR is at 5,700+ members these days and generally has a good answer for technical questions and how-to write-ups. To say nothing of Club Lexus, which has something like 12k threads on 470s and 460s. There is also Ih8mud. The community support is out there for sure!

 

[mindless1]

2005 with 198,9xx, zero KDSS problems.

"Maybe", but as I wrote, it's a mechanical thing subject to wear like shocks, so it inevitably isn't going to work as well the older it gets, nor will any flexible joints, bushings, ball joints, etc in it.

That's not to suggest the 4Runner won't also need sway bar end links, bushings, etc. Anything lifted that goes off-road is going to need more than its share of refurbishment over time, but bushings and end links tend to only cost $25 DIY. What does that KDSS system's components cost? I'm suspecting in the neighborhood of $1K... though if you really like it then it's worth it spread over several years of use.

 

[jlee]

"Maybe", but as I wrote, it's a mechanical thing subject to wear like shocks, so it inevitably isn't going to work as well the older it gets, nor will any flexible joints, bushings, ball joints, etc in it.

That's not to suggest the 4Runner won't also need sway bar end links, bushings, etc. Anything lifted that goes off-road is going to need more than its share of refurbishment over time, but bushings and end links tend to only cost $25 DIY. What does that KDSS system's components cost? I'm suspecting in the neighborhood of $1K... though if you really like it then it's worth it spread over several years of use.

"Maybe" what? Do you know something about my truck that I don't?

Yes, if KDSS fails it is expensive. Regardless, I would pay to fix it in a heartbeat - it truly is that good.

If a system that is maintenance-free and trouble-free for 13 years and 200k miles is not acceptable to you, I'm not sure to what standard you're holding anything.

Edit: Oops, not quite maintenance free. I preventatively replaced the sway bar bushings when I installed my aftermarket suspension.

 

[mindless1]

^ jlee you could say any suspension is maintenance free for 13 years and 200K miles(except shocks and struts) but the fact is, it WILL wear and will need replaced eventually. There's no getting around that, unless something else sends it to a junkyard before that happens.

Would you know if it doesn't work as well as it did from the factory? It would be a lot easier to push on a bumper to test shocks or struts, than to test lbs-force vs sway to determine how degraded it is right now.

Everything *works* until it fails. Have you had to replace your control arm bushings, ball joints, tie rods, etc? Those too, will need replaced at some point unless you're only babying it on pothole-less roads.

It may not matter to you, but it is a difference, especially to people who keep vehicles as long as possible, or end up passing them along to their children (young or older) who then inherit the associated repairs.

 

[jlee]

^ jlee you could say any suspension is maintenance free for 13 years and 200K miles(except shocks and struts) but the fact is, it WILL wear and will need replaced eventually. There's no getting around that, unless something else sends it to a junkyard before that happens.

Would you know if it doesn't work as well as it did from the factory? It would be a lot easier to push on a bumper to test shocks or struts, than to test lbs-force vs sway to determine how degraded it is right now.

Everything *works* until it fails. Have you had to replace your control arm bushings, ball joints, tie rods, etc? Those too, will need replaced at some point unless you're only babying it on pothole-less roads.

It may not matter to you, but it is a difference, especially to people who keep vehicles as long as possible, or end up passing them along to their children (young or older) who then inherit the associated repairs.

Considering it's a hydraulic system with pressure monitors that will throw a computer code if it is not performing correctly, yes I would know.

 

[mindless1]

^ Nobody is debating that a thing works until it breaks.

I am pointing out that when it does break, it's going to cost a lot more to fix.

It is something to consider when buying a used vehicle, unless you don't plan to own it for long. If it has been considered and is still desirable based on your good experience, great, BUT, it is still an additional expense eventually.

However, no you don't know it is working as well as it did on day one, merely because you don't have a fluid leak. Shocks, hydraulic steering racks, brakes, etc, can and do degrade without any leaking.

 

[mindless1]

If a system that is maintenance-free and trouble-free for 13 years and 200k miles is not acceptable to you, I'm not sure to what standard you're holding anything.

The standard I'm holding it to is that over the lifetime of the vehicle, odds are it's going to need repaired. I accept this for the suspension components of any off-road capable vehicle.

I don't send vehicles to the junkyard at 13 yrs or 200K mi, and I don't buy vehicles with expensive-to-repair suspensions at 13 yrs or 200k mi either, so what remains is not does it still work now, but what liability is it in the future to whoever owns it when it does fail.

You're welcome to disagree, ignore, etc, but repair costs are a valid concern when buying used vehicles.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Well, the 4Runner Limited is certainly the better looking of the two but I’d probably go for the Lexus as it is a little nicer. Fuel economy will be horrible on both with maybe a slight edge to the Toyota over the Lexus.

I can’t imagine why anyone would not want KDSS. For the benefits to both on-road and off-road capability it seems well worth getting.

 

[JCH13]

The standard I'm holding it to is that over the lifetime of the vehicle, odds are it's going to need repaired. I accept this for the suspension components of any off-road capable vehicle.

I don't send vehicles to the junkyard at 13 yrs or 200K mi, and I don't buy vehicles with expensive-to-repair suspensions at 13 yrs or 200k mi either, so what remains is not does it still work now, but what liability is it in the future to whoever owns it when it does fail.

You're welcome to disagree, ignore, etc, but repair costs are a valid concern when buying used vehicles.

The debate you're pushing is a matter of degree. Perhaps a valid concern, but useless to argue over without data. With the GX rocking a reliability rating of 100 from LTQI with significantly higher than average mileage, I think that it is safe to say the GX generally holds up very well with time and mileage.

OP is looking at getting a 2-3 year used GX460, say with 30k on it, so if they were able to get 140-170k trouble-free miles from KDSS... well... that seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[jlee]

The standard I'm holding it to is that over the lifetime of the vehicle, odds are it's going to need repaired. I accept this for the suspension components of any off-road capable vehicle.

I don't send vehicles to the junkyard at 13 yrs or 200K mi, and I don't buy vehicles with expensive-to-repair suspensions at 13 yrs or 200k mi either, so what remains is not does it still work now, but what liability is it in the future to whoever owns it when it does fail.

You're welcome to disagree, ignore, etc, but repair costs are a valid concern when buying used vehicles.

The average lifespan for a vehicle is 13-17 years. At 13,476 miles per year, the average car will make it between 175k and 229k miles before it's all done. My current mileage puts me in the middle of an average vehicle lifetime with no problems. Most cars would be junked by now or sometime in the next 30k miles / four years. And even still, the performance benefits are so significant that I would have it even if it required maintenance or repair.

You're right, something is going to break eventually. From what I generally see, KDSS will last longer than Subaru's n/a engines, Honda's automatic transmissions, BMW's E46 subframes, or Mazda's body panels in the salt belt.

 

[bigi]

...

OP is looking at getting a 2-3 year used GX460, say with 30k on it, so if they were able to get 140-170k trouble-free miles from KDSS... well... that seems pretty reasonable to me.

No, I am considering getting a new GX460.

 

[jlee]

No, I am considering getting a new GX460.

And all this time I thought the numbers in the OP were mileage...oops. Have you test driven them both?

As a tangent...the Lexus dealership experience is generally superb. Service/etc is the best I have experienced at a dealer.