45% of Americans think the Obama plan has a death panel provision... among other lies

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Fern
100% agree (I've been wanting to make this point but you beat me to it).

Those of you complaining about slime machines, astroturf and town hall meetings etc perpetrating lies might wanna look at the actual poll. Here See question 14a. Almost nobody who's seen coverage of these town halls was influenced, or think anyone else has been influenced. So, if it's not town halls etc, what is it?

Please, don't resort to the same dishonest tactics as some of your peers. It's a straw man argument. Nobody is suggesting the town hall meetings are the only source of disinformation. You even point out others in your second sentence ... and then pretend they aren't there when you refer to that one narrow question in the poll. As I've said twice already in this thread:

• "That's a bogus argument on multiple levels. First, the slime machine doesn't need to control the media to spread lies far and wide. Any open microphone with a camera running will do. Be prominent (Palin, Grassley), make a controversial statement (because the corporate media knows controversy is great for ratings), and odds are good your propaganda point will get national exposure. Throw in a dishonest ad campaign and a little viral marketing via your army of obedient stooges and voila, your lies are popping up everywhere. Pretty soon the sheeple starting bleating them over and over in unison, certain they're true because they've heard them many times.
  
  "More than that, your premise that the GOP doesn't control the media is disingenuous. We can argue about the extent to which they control the MSM overall, but there is no argument that Fox 'News' and AM talk radio are dominated by the right. They are a tremendous pulpit from which the RNC can catapult its propaganda to the faithful, a seemingly gullible group that has historically done a poor job of separating truth from partisan bullsh@t."

The town hall meetings are only one small piece of a larger campaign against reforming health care in America.

What's generating the high numbers behind these so-called myths is a widespread lack of trust in Congress. Jeez, think of Congress's abysmal approval ratings. Where else could somebody possibly believe we'd willingly hand over such a huge and important thing as health care to a entity with such crappy ratings?
[ ... ]
It's primarily about a lack of trust in Congress.

Fern

That might be plausible except initial support for reform was high, even given our distrust of Congress. Support didn't really drop until the smear campaign got rolling.

What you and your peers are too hard headed to understand, is your statement of "The town hall meetings are only one small piece of a larger campaign against reforming health care in America." is actually correct if you add a few words: The town hall meetings are only one small piece of a larger campaign against reforming health care in America as the Democrats are proposing.

Just because the majority of the country is against when the Dems proposed does NOT mean we are against reform.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Pens1566

Originally posted by: dammitgibs
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...lth_care_end_of_life_2

Senators exclude end-of-life provision from bill

Silly Senators why would you remove something that's not there in the first place?

Really? Still think it says that grandma's plug can be pulled? Ugh ...

For the 2389402938402985th time, the section allowed reimbursement for voluntary power of attorney and living will consultations. I'm wasting time typing this out though. :disgust:

hey, maybe grandma should just take a pill? Ya, know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo

liars (and people that condone lying) shouldn't be allowed to post on the boards.

If that was the case this would be a conservative forum

Maybe in bizarro world.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Fern
100% agree (I've been wanting to make this point but you beat me to it).

Those of you complaining about slime machines, astroturf and town hall meetings etc perpetrating lies might wanna look at the actual poll. Here See question 14a. Almost nobody who's seen coverage of these town halls was influenced, or think anyone else has been influenced. So, if it's not town halls etc, what is it?

Please, don't resort to the same dishonest tactics as some of your peers. It's a straw man argument. Nobody is suggesting the town hall meetings are the only source of disinformation. You even point out others in your second sentence ... and then pretend they aren't there when you refer to that one narrow question in the poll. As I've said twice already in this thread:

• "That's a bogus argument on multiple levels. First, the slime machine doesn't need to control the media to spread lies far and wide. Any open microphone with a camera running will do. Be prominent (Palin, Grassley), make a controversial statement (because the corporate media knows controversy is great for ratings), and odds are good your propaganda point will get national exposure. Throw in a dishonest ad campaign and a little viral marketing via your army of obedient stooges and voila, your lies are popping up everywhere. Pretty soon the sheeple starting bleating them over and over in unison, certain they're true because they've heard them many times.
  
  "More than that, your premise that the GOP doesn't control the media is disingenuous. We can argue about the extent to which they control the MSM overall, but there is no argument that Fox 'News' and AM talk radio are dominated by the right. They are a tremendous pulpit from which the RNC can catapult its propaganda to the faithful, a seemingly gullible group that has historically done a poor job of separating truth from partisan bullsh@t."

The town hall meetings are only one small piece of a larger campaign against reforming health care in America.

What's generating the high numbers behind these so-called myths is a widespread lack of trust in Congress. Jeez, think of Congress's abysmal approval ratings. Where else could somebody possibly believe we'd willingly hand over such a huge and important thing as health care to a entity with such crappy ratings?
[ ... ]
It's primarily about a lack of trust in Congress.

Fern

That might be plausible except initial support for reform was high, even given our distrust of Congress. Support didn't really drop until the smear campaign got rolling.

What you and your peers are too hard headed to understand, is your statement of "The town hall meetings are only one small piece of a larger campaign against reforming health care in America." is actually correct if you add a few words: The town hall meetings are only one small piece of a larger campaign against reforming health care in America as the Democrats are proposing.

Just because the majority of the country is against when the Dems proposed does NOT mean we are against reform.

The majority voted for him because of his health reform. The vocal crazy minority that voted against him and have no problem comparing him to Hitler are just going insane now.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

The majority voted for him because of his health reform. The vocal crazy minority that voted against him and have no problem comparing him to Hitler are just going insane now.

No, they voted for him because he wasn't a Republican and if the Republicans don't get a fresh face to run against him in 2012 they'll vote for him again because he's not a Republican.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

The majority voted for him because of his health reform. The vocal crazy minority that voted against him and have no problem comparing him to Hitler are just going insane now.

No, they voted for him because he wasn't a Republican and if the Republicans don't get a fresh face to run against him in 2012 they'll vote for him again because he's not a Republican.

This. People need to stop reading too much into why Obama was elected. You just summed it up as well as it can possibly be summed up.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Atreus21
In my opinion, the Death Panel discussion was unimportant, even if it was inaccurate. The rampant protest that resulted conveyed to me the fact that the opposition was motivated by principle, not because of any specific factor in the UHC discussion.

The principle among conservatives is that government expansion for any reason at any time is to be met with suspicion as a default. And at a time when we're already spending ourselves into Rapture, I think conservatives believed the UHC adoption was not only too much, but ridiculous even to be thinking under the current conditions. It's simply too much expansion, too fast.

And for me that's a good thing. I like sticking to principles. UHC, even if it works, is a step in the wrong direction, because private enterprise works. Think of a benevolent dictatorship. Maybe it works, but you're using the weapon of the enemy, and therefore playing with fire.

I think the 45 million people without any healthcare and the majority of people who declared bankruptcy because of medical bills despite having medical insurance might disagree with that.

Correction: 45 million people without any health insurance. And who among them are voluntarily so?

Doesn't matter. We still pay for their ERs.

And how about a moral obligation? Ever hear of that? Or should our money only be spent on killing "enemies"?

Republicans have this irrational deep-seeded loathing for the idea that someone other than themselves might be getting some kind of small benefit from their tax dollars. It's kind of funny, actually.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
What you and your peers are too hard headed to understand, is your statement of "The town hall meetings are only one small piece of a larger campaign against reforming health care in America." is actually correct if you add a few words: The town hall meetings are only one small piece of a larger campaign against reforming health care in America as the Democrats are proposing.

Just because the majority of the country is against when the Dems proposed does NOT mean we are against reform.

No matter how much you try to change the subject and dance away from the truth, the poll from the OP shows that what a great many people oppose is not the Dems' actual proposal, but the perverted caricature spread by the right-wing slime machine. As has been pointed out several times in this thread (and always ignored by the anti's), the majority of Americans still support the Dems' plan when given a sketch of the actual plan. There is also a significant minority who oppose the current proposal because it has been watered-down in a misguided attempt to compromise with the right. They want nothing less than full UHC.

I agree there is a lot of lip service from some on the right saying, "Oh yes! We want reform too." What I don't see, however, are serious, comprehensive alternative proposals that truly address the growing crisis. Instead, I hear attack after attack, mostly blatant fear-mongering full of lies and disinformation, with very little interest in actually moving the discussion forward.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
<snip>
I agree there is a lot of lip service from some on the right saying, "Oh yes! We want reform too." What I don't see, however, are serious, comprehensive alternative proposals that truly address the growing crisis. Instead, I hear attack after attack, mostly blatant fear-mongering full of lies and disinformation, with very little interest in actually moving the discussion forward.

That's because you're not paying attention and painting republicans in a bad light because it makes you feel better.

Patient's choice act of 2009

Sen. Coburn is the sponser, he is also one of the very few doctors on congress so I'd trust his opinion.

 

[Pens1566]

HA! Was going to post the following before even reading it :

Let me guess, tax cuts?

So predictable ....

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
<snip>
I agree there is a lot of lip service from some on the right saying, "Oh yes! We want reform too." What I don't see, however, are serious, comprehensive alternative proposals that truly address the growing crisis. Instead, I hear attack after attack, mostly blatant fear-mongering full of lies and disinformation, with very little interest in actually moving the discussion forward.

That's because you're not paying attention and painting republicans in a bad light because it makes you feel better.

On the contrary, I'm painting some Republicans in a bad light due to their behavior, specifically the fear-mongering lies and disinformation they are using to attack the Dems' health proposals. This is called "accountability" for one's actions.

Patient's choice act of 2009

Sen. Coburn is the sponser, he is also one of the very few doctors on congress so I'd trust his opinion.

Interesting. I saw a brief discussion about it a week or so ago ... before they resumed their bitch-a-thon. I'm frankly skeptical since it claims to solve America's health care problems better than the Dems' proposals while not costing us a single extra cent of tax money, and I note it avoids most of the hard issues with vague happy phrases and a lot of "each state can set its own innovative ..." Nonetheless, perhaps you should start a thread on it and explain its virtues, subject it to the sort of scrutiny given to the Dems' proposals. Perhaps the Republican slime machine should be promoting this plan as aggressively as they've been smearing the Dems, with public appearances, a big ad campaign, hours of coverage every day by the entertainers at Fox and on talk radio, Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: e-mails, etc. So far their (and your) focus has been almost exclusively attacks ... which is what I pointed out in the paragraph you quoted.

 

[sandorski]

John Stewart interviewed the woman who started the whole "Death Panel"(note: she didn't coin the term, but was the person whom others based their coining of the term on) controversy. She was clearly disgusted/afraid of the provision, but when pressed on it kept giving her Interpretation of what it said, seemingly avoiding just reading it like Stewart asked her to. She had the whole Bill printed out and repeatedly went looking for it, but kept removing her hand from the page so she'd have to look for it again...even when it was in front of her face she'd start a spiel of what it said rather than reading it. Eventually she found it, John took it from her then read the passage. Surprise/Shock it didn't say anything near what she kept implying.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

And how about a moral obligation? Ever hear of that? Or should our money only be spent on killing "enemies"?

An obligation isn't moral if you don't have a choice about it.

Please show me were that is written . Let me tell ya something, When you pay your taxes willingly or not . YOU are paying upkeep of the American World police force(Military)

You know this you are aware of this . Your as guility as any other in the deaths and human suffering it brings . YOU ARE RESPONSIABLE for were your money goes . YOU are NONE other than. YOU!

Can somebody interpret this for me?