Wow, there are some paranoid people around here. Also most of the people who say "1984 1984 1984" or "big brother", probably havent even read the book. Lets clear things first. You can only say 1984/"big brother" as an argument/reason if the government is the one who is going around and invading your privacy and the like. If you actually look at the situation, car manuf. are installing these to prevent false lawsuits against them for the air bag going off. You understand. Hey if i was in their shoes id like to make sure i had evidance that shows the car operated properly during an accident. Hence only the last few seconds are recorded.
For this information to be used against you, the prosecutor has to get the permission of the court for the info to be even entered into evidence. Ok now i do think you should be aware that these cars have them installed in the first place, but i havent shoped for a new car in a long time so i dont know if its in the fine print somewhere.
On a side note, a few others have echoed this point, but it bears repeating: "Driving is not a right, but a privilige!!" So if at some point the government does require all cars to have it, just remember that you can just walk your ass from point A to point B, or take public transp., or even drive like you should in the first place. You dont have the right to indanger other peoples safety.
well just my 2 cents
epic
ps english isnt my first language so forgive me for any grammar or spelling errors.
For this information to be used against you, the prosecutor has to get the permission of the court for the info to be even entered into evidence. Ok now i do think you should be aware that these cars have them installed in the first place, but i havent shoped for a new car in a long time so i dont know if its in the fine print somewhere.
On a side note, a few others have echoed this point, but it bears repeating: "Driving is not a right, but a privilige!!" So if at some point the government does require all cars to have it, just remember that you can just walk your ass from point A to point B, or take public transp., or even drive like you should in the first place. You dont have the right to indanger other peoples safety.
well just my 2 cents
epic
ps english isnt my first language so forgive me for any grammar or spelling errors.
yeah, i've known about this for some time. just another reason i will never buy an american car.
you know On-Star will gladly offer up your position and driving habits if asked by the authorities? if i ever get a car equipped with it (a possibility now that honda is offering them), i'll rip it out the day i drive it off the lot. warrenty be damned. on a side note, you can hack those things to be a free GPS unit you can hook up to your laptop.
those of you who are saying "well don't do anything bad and it doesn't matter" need to re-read 1984. that work of fiction is fast becoming our reality, and it isn't a good thing.
you know On-Star will gladly offer up your position and driving habits if asked by the authorities? if i ever get a car equipped with it (a possibility now that honda is offering them), i'll rip it out the day i drive it off the lot. warrenty be damned. on a side note, you can hack those things to be a free GPS unit you can hook up to your laptop.
those of you who are saying "well don't do anything bad and it doesn't matter" need to re-read 1984. that work of fiction is fast becoming our reality, and it isn't a good thing.
please move to china. or north korea. iran might be ok, even. america is not your country. i never thought i'd say this to anyone (because it's usually used as an excuse to push an unrelated agenda and has nothing to do with american's principles), but get out of the country. you don't deserve to breath the air here.
Shucks...I thought you were actually going somewhere.
You're either a complete and ignorant idiot or just too imature to figure that out yet.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. You were actually going somewhere at the beginning, but the rest of your argument is ambiguous at best.
I have no fear of these boxes because when they step over the line with them, a market will open up for hackers to modify them and it's all put back in balance again. I'll be able to purchase a "Black Box Mod Chip" on the 'net and save my ass when I was stupid. 
Yeah, thats a good way of showing me a point. Anyways, do what you want. Sooner or later all cars will have this, and all the better. You have no concept of 1984 or what it is trying to tell you. But if you think you know more than me, and that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, then go ahead.
I look forward to driving on the road knowing that at some point cars will have this in them. At some point id like to see a lower cap as to how fast a car can go. Also a way for the police to stop a car with a remote system would just be nice for me.
later,
epic
This may have already been posted, but this is a link to a list of all cars with the system... EDR (Error/Event Data Recorder)
list
it gets better....
It's a federal crime to disable it since its integral to your computer and will prolly mess up your airbags, etc....
list
it gets better....
It's a federal crime to disable it since its integral to your computer and will prolly mess up your airbags, etc....
Originally posted by: Ciber
Soon they will record the last 50k miles or more... Really not that difficult since it's all text, just drop 32 megs of ram in there.
Then they will have GPS and the GPS will be synchronized with stop lights and speed zones, so here you are driving home and you go over the speed limit without even realizing it, because you did not see the sign you just passed that says the speed limit is now 45 instead of 55. A week passes and you get your nice fine in the mail.
You might think this is paranoia, but this is something that we can do today, easily.
Just something to think about.
They already do it with cameras tied in to radar guns.
MrChad
Lifer
- Aug 22, 2001
- 13,507
- 3
- 81
In the Florida case that was mentioned in the original post, it sounds like the black box was admitted as evidence in order to corroborate the testimony of the accident investigator (who had already determined that the defendant was driving almost 40 mph over his claimed speed). Would the black box be admissable under any other circumstances? Law enforcement had to obtain a search warrant to even get the box in the first place (link).
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Wish I still had my 69' scout.
Amused is 100% spot on. Our rights and freedoms have slowly but noticably been disappearing even over my short 33 year life ....but since the timeframe he discribed it's a very noticable tread for followers of history. This is another nail in the coffin by the nanny state. Not only does it violate 4th and 5th amendments it costs everyone more (undue burden on the poor most) for a vechile because of this box and airbags for that matter which adds over $1200 to each and every vehicle.
Couple things. It's not illegal to tamper with your own vechile, yet...only to have it done. Almost ALL GM's since 1995 have these drive recorders so watch out you may have to testify against yourself in the event of an accident for driving domestic. All Fords since 01' have them.
Amused is 100% spot on. Our rights and freedoms have slowly but noticably been disappearing even over my short 33 year life ....but since the timeframe he discribed it's a very noticable tread for followers of history. This is another nail in the coffin by the nanny state. Not only does it violate 4th and 5th amendments it costs everyone more (undue burden on the poor most) for a vechile because of this box and airbags for that matter which adds over $1200 to each and every vehicle.
Couple things. It's not illegal to tamper with your own vechile, yet...only to have it done. Almost ALL GM's since 1995 have these drive recorders so watch out you may have to testify against yourself in the event of an accident for driving domestic. All Fords since 01' have them.
Luckily our wonderful PATRIOT Act (not to be confused or associated [however it commonly is] with the actual word patriot, moreso nationalist) even forego's the requirement for a judge to issue many of these items... Simply a court clerk.
It's becoming very distrubing. Personally I think they're fine as long as the owner of the device has full control over disclosure of this information. Regardless of how people feel about the abuse aspect of this device, it's (for me) comes down to ownership and ability to opt-out. If you have no choice to opt-out of thise service, you should at least be able to control the dissemination (spelling sucks) of it's output. It's yours. Especially given the fact that you are FORCED to use it. It's not like a keylog on your computer... unless the keylog app were mandatory and unable to be uninstalled. And if that's the case, then yes, I would have a problem with that as well. What I type in my home, whether it be a letter to my brother, password data, or hell pr0n, it doesn't matter. I have an expectation of privact in my own HOME.
Which raises probably the most crucial and deciding aspect of this issue... Whether or not you have an expectation of privacy in your vehicle. I can see a valid reason why you would, however it also makes sense that actions taken in public, especially actions that are of your own choosing (driving as a privlegdge) do not afford one an expectation of privacy...
If you can expect privacy in your vehicle, then you should at least be allowed to not have the device installed. If you cannot expect privacy, then it doesn't really matter... That's the question to answer
Sorry for my rambling rant. And please please refrain from political stereotypes (the drugs reference implied at a liberal mindset). That's pitiful banter as far as I'm concerned, and to be frank, I think anyone that identifies themself as right or left wing are fairly insane... Okay, not INSANE, but well I just feel sorry for them cuz they're both wrong. Gotta meet in the middle folks
Cya!Right... I think the idea is illustrating a total of all of these types of items today. And they do exist today. It wasn't as bad in the 30's or whenever since these present-day items weren't around. The existance of a single bad thing for such a period of time doesn't make it "ok". Just shows how ignorant and tolerant of abuse towards our personal privacy we've become
I think I'm pro-black box in my car. I wont have a problem with it cause maybe, just maybe, it will make some of the morons out there drive safer, instead of running lights and stop signs, endanger not just themselves, but everyone else.
Imagine this: A guy that was just working OT, eager to get home to his wife and kids. Sees a red light and thinks its a small suburban intersection, no one ever comes here anyway. So he runs the light, then a split second pass the intersection smokes a kid that was going home alone from soccer pratice. He claims he has hit a stray dog and claims his insurance for damages to his car. Then a month later, maybe 2, it turns out that a senior citizen with bad eyes saw his car hit the kid. The guys lawyer managed to convince the jury that the old man thats nearly blind cant be taken seriously. So he gets away with manslaughter.
Now that story might be lacking in detail (and proper grammer/spelling), but you see my point. If they used the infomation from the black box, then the guy would have had a lot higher chance to be proven guilty and gotten what he deserved, even if it was only an accident.
If you REALLY want to know, all this Constitution BS, is well, BS if you ask me. That thing was drafted hundreds of years ago by a bunch of dead white guys, dont you think it kinda needs a little revision by now? Haha, The Constitution 2.0 anyone? People as a whole has change, and our needs has changed.
Yes, 1984 is pretty much a reality. WWI, WWII, the whole cold war era with korea, vietnam and cuba, not to mention the whole thing with latin america, AND the whole middle east thing, AND the beloved patriot/India thing, AND lets move more to the east with the China/Taiwan thing, and now theres the terrorists we have to deal with too. We are always in a constant state of war, or the constant blink of utter freaking destruction, thats just how we are. The public is aways held in check by fear, but who cares, its good for the economy anyway. Ever really heard the US presidents radio address? Sounds pretty damn close to 1984 proganda to me, just instead of telling us chocolate production is up by 500tons, Bush tells us employment is up by 20,000 jobs or the economy is improving, etc. Man, I can go on forever, but I'm not going to cause half of you have already shifted that 8minute attention span of yours to the porn thats being downloaded over your Kazaa; as I am about to do right now.
Imagine this: A guy that was just working OT, eager to get home to his wife and kids. Sees a red light and thinks its a small suburban intersection, no one ever comes here anyway. So he runs the light, then a split second pass the intersection smokes a kid that was going home alone from soccer pratice. He claims he has hit a stray dog and claims his insurance for damages to his car. Then a month later, maybe 2, it turns out that a senior citizen with bad eyes saw his car hit the kid. The guys lawyer managed to convince the jury that the old man thats nearly blind cant be taken seriously. So he gets away with manslaughter.
Now that story might be lacking in detail (and proper grammer/spelling), but you see my point. If they used the infomation from the black box, then the guy would have had a lot higher chance to be proven guilty and gotten what he deserved, even if it was only an accident.
If you REALLY want to know, all this Constitution BS, is well, BS if you ask me. That thing was drafted hundreds of years ago by a bunch of dead white guys, dont you think it kinda needs a little revision by now? Haha, The Constitution 2.0 anyone? People as a whole has change, and our needs has changed.
Yes, 1984 is pretty much a reality. WWI, WWII, the whole cold war era with korea, vietnam and cuba, not to mention the whole thing with latin america, AND the whole middle east thing, AND the beloved patriot/India thing, AND lets move more to the east with the China/Taiwan thing, and now theres the terrorists we have to deal with too. We are always in a constant state of war, or the constant blink of utter freaking destruction, thats just how we are. The public is aways held in check by fear, but who cares, its good for the economy anyway. Ever really heard the US presidents radio address? Sounds pretty damn close to 1984 proganda to me, just instead of telling us chocolate production is up by 500tons, Bush tells us employment is up by 20,000 jobs or the economy is improving, etc. Man, I can go on forever, but I'm not going to cause half of you have already shifted that 8minute attention span of yours to the porn thats being downloaded over your Kazaa; as I am about to do right now.
Although I agree an attitude like his is extremely naive, I still think it boils down more to whether or not we truly have an expectation of privacy on the road. And I'm just not quite sure yet. Sure it's your car, but you're interacting in an extremely public fashion, one that directly, immediately, and can potentially devastatingly affect other motorists and pedestrians. Participating in these types of activities requires some level of responsiblity.
Unfortunately, I'm not very impressed at the level of personal responsibility and consideration to safety (something that should be part of this core driving responsibility) the average motorist exhibits. At some point, we HAVE authorized and sanction action by our government to take steps to prevent this type of fairly universal personal neglect, if nothing else for the enhanced safety of the general law abiding and conscientious motorists. We generally use public safety officers, parking enforcement, etc... to do this.
Over the past few years, we've seen an increasing trend towards more technology and less humanity in our motor safety enforcement, specifically in traffic light cameras and these little "black" boxes. While there are definately arguments towards their usefullness, we also need to consider the downsides to these devices, specifically the lack of a reasonable ability to dispute their findings. This would be of less concern to me if we could really trust them 100%. Unfortunately, the overwhelming ignorance of our lawmakers, judge's, and possibly the average citizen towards the accuracy and precision (dictating overall usefullness) of these devices makes me a little uneasy if I were to ever be at the receiving-end of their data output. This isn't DNA we're talking about here...
I was paying attention to a trial in California a few years ago where AOL-based email corrospondance was being submitted as evidence an individual murdered their spouse. It almost enraged me that they were getting away with this kind of stuff! The prosecution had an AOL exec spouting out how they log session times, information, etc... and sounded extremely convincing to what I would perceive an average juror to be. I hope there was someone with half a tech brain on the jury though... Even if you count out the most obvious (easily revoked) method of sending misleading email headers, they assume the person's logon password was required at every signon, even though it's most likely it was cached and anyone with physical access to the box could convincingly impersonate the accused. Even cancelling all of that, email are simple text documents. At my various places of employment, too many people view these things as typed memo's. They're not. You can manipulate even legitimate email with extreme ease. I digress, however this is a classic example (IMO) at technology misleading, confusing, and enstilling a false perception of confidence in accuracy and reliability in the general public.
These devices offer us the same challenge. There is never 100% in the technology industry. Never. Unfortunately, due to public reliance in their abilities, the technology cannot lie. And while it may not intentionally or maliciously falsefy its' data, corrupt law enforcement officials, prosecutor's, buggy programming, faulty sensory equipment, and possibly other things I can't come up with at 2AM are all factor's that concern me greatly about using this data to punish people.
The subject case of the guy in the GrandAm is a perfect example of this. Traditionally, we have relied on a proven basis of physics to help understand the dynamics of an accident. We have relied on this as a proven and reliable science in our courts. However using this same science, an estimated speed of 98 MPH was recorded, however the "technology" reported 16 MPH faster than our best "human" estimates. So who's right? We aren't talking 2-4% difference in opinion here, which could be a different interpretation of the data. We're talking a 16% difference. The argument could be made that the box recorded a speed as "high" as 114. Maybe that was several seconds earlier right? Nope. As I understand it, these boxes are only capable of recording the last 2-3 seconds prior to an impact. We're talking about the CRASH only, not what he was doing 1/4 of a mile up the road (granted, at his speed only 10 sec or so away). So what are we to believe now? That our best science has been incorrect by 15%? If that's the case, we have quite a few speeding tickets and judgements that need to be corrected as anyone involved in a crash who's reported going 35 in a 30, really was obeying the speed limit. So... which is it?
I can tell you which one they most likely used in their case against the guy. The black box. Why? Because technology doesn't lie. True, but that doesn't mean it's right...
Anyway, I am so freaking tired I have GOT to go to sleep now! The base questions as I've said so many times already (and what I really believe) is: Do we have an expectation of privacy in our vehicle's on a public road interacting with the general public? Answer this, and the rest is moot... Well, besides the whole 15% science discrepency thing... It's not like they're using different physic's books when they calculate this stuff right?
Cheers!
Homerboy
Lifer
- Mar 1, 2000
- 30,856
- 4,974
- 126
This isnt the greatest analogy in the world as my keystrokes really cant kill or harm other people now can it? (minus hacking into NORAD I guess).
My keyboard strokes, are a personal item. How fast I am driving on a public street SHOULD BE publicly accessable information. Now if the black box is recording I stopped at the grocery store 10 times this week, and the porn store 100 times, thats a dif story.
I assume that people against these black boxes in cars are also against them in commercial airliners? Or private planes? Would only make sense...
The analogy isn't the best in the world simply because you could have a different level of expectations at home opposed to a vehicle. What the possible consequences are are a lot less significant. Why? Because although keystrokes may be less harmful in such a violent and immediate sense as a car crash is, there is still, as with vehicles, the ability for gross "misuse". For instant, pedofile's who chat with little pre-teen boys and girls and tries to meet with them. Although this is not as "visual" as a car crash, it can still have devastating effects. There would be several examples.
They may be a personal item, however the Internet is a public forum/network just as our roads are public. What they carry are simply different
A better example than a keylogging program would be an actual physical black box connected at your ISP that keeps a record of all data you pass through it. Should this be publically available information too? I don't think so personally. But there's an argument for it, it's being argued constantly in fact. I am curious about your stated limits in acceptance for a device like this... If it records speed, fine. If it records location, not fine. It's location, along with speed, part of this public access idea you support? If the streets are public, and that makes your actions accountable, and recordable on them, why would location be restricted while speed isn't? You can't really have your cake and eat it too (I don't even know what that means, but it seems to be appropriate?). If the argument is that WHERE you go is not anyone else's business and that speed/braking data is useful because it can be used to determined what happened in an accident, that's a bad bad reason. Imagine how many hit-and-run cases would be closed (all of them?) if we were able to record a vehicle's location! Just enter a time and place into a query and blam! You know that it was Mr. Green on State St. with the Land Rover Of course, hopefully those things never mess up. It'd be horrible if you were driving somewhere and it just happened to wig out for a few minutes and hop you over a street. Who knows if that could happen. It might be possible? if you're vehicle isn't able to view a GPS sat, but there are some sort of reflective structure that gets your signal and blasts it up to space. The signal would appear to be coming from the building, moving as you do, even though you're not really "there". This might sound like a stretch, it could be, I don't know. But I'm not sure anyone else here does either? Even if that's impossible, it still doesn't change the fact that you can't justify speed recording and not other things like location, maybe some kind of sleepyness analysis (technology I've seen actually demo'd on TV). What would be better than to get a ticket because some wireless app notified the closest law enforcement officer you're dozing off? You better hope THAT technology is 100% reliable...
Commercial airlines? No, that shouldn't even be an issue. Someone that has a problem with that is plain crazy IMO. And this isn't some kind of terrorist threat reaction. As far as I'm concerned, Ridge can stuff those colors, well, it ain't pretty. It's simply that unlike an average vehicle, a airliner isn't tied specifically to you. If it goes to fast, oh well. If it gets to its' destination... umm, good. If it doesn't, the OWNER of the aircraft will probably want to know where it flew off to. Regardless, it wouldn't be able to record personally identifyable information about YOU. If it did, then yeah, people should start to question it. Video recording, possibly okay, since you've already got 100 other people recording with their own eyes. Video analysis and preemptive action? Not okay. Heart rate monitor's to determine if someone is "likely" to freak out, throw up, or blow the thing up, not okay. Again, it comes down to expectation of privacy
I'm like a broken record. It's like mind-control. You say it enough and people might actually start to believe it. Screw that it's true and the real issue, say it enough and it BECOMES truth. I mean look at Bush And sorry, please don't label that left-winged. I feel the same about democrat politicians. It's just easier and more passionate right now since the right control so much, well and the fact Bush is by and large an insane liar.Now as far as PERSONAL aircraft are concerned, that's a little trickier. The reason? Because it's more elitest currently. And yeah, that does make a difference. Whether actually or just socially, it doesn't matter. It simply IS and that's what we have to deal with. I think the main difference to support devices like these in aircraft opposed to land-favoring craft is the inherit ease of screwing up. I'd imagine it's a lot easier to get off track in your twin-prop trying to follow the imaginary white and yellow lines in the sky than it is to veer off course (under full mental capacity, ie. no freaking CELL phone glued to your ear) in a car. And I'm willing to bet you that 9 times out of 10, those people really REALLY want whatever information they can get to be recorded or otherwise so they can figure out how they're going to remain alive. Besides, my God, if you have some jet crash smack on into a mountain, I'm pretty dang sure the person owning that plane is going to want to know what the hell happened? The manufacturer might not of course
The difference here is the black box device is more likely than not going to be the only piece of reckage that CAN be used to determine what happened.That there my friend is the ultimate difference and something I touched on in my previous post. We have a tried and true? scientific method for analyzing an auto crash. We can do it! In the same light the GrandAm example is a champion for showing their usefullness in a real test example, we seem to overlook something. Our own real analysis shows the guy was insane too! 333% over the speed limit! By golly, it doesn't seem like we even NEED these devices. Our own scientist's are already doing a bang up job. In this case, maybe personal freedom and a right to privacy can take precedence (again, horrible spelling perhaps) over a duplication of services these black boxes claim to provide. And if we argue they should replace our human element efforts, phew. You're really in for a mess of hurt for a whole lot of civil cases against person's, the government, and who knows what else.
An aircraft however, I am not aware of a reliable, or even estimatable method investigator's can use to determine that this heap of scrap was going 200 MPH opposed to 280MPH when it hit the side of the mountain. All they know it, well it used to be a LearJet XXX or whatever. But that's only because they were able to piece together the 10 pieces of fuselage that had the aircraft lettering embedded on them. You know, if we ever get to the point that most automobile accidents annihilate a license plate into 10 pieces, I think it may be time to reconsider this whole black box idea. Hell, it'd be time to reconsider transportation.
I guess I am sorta opposed to these critters. Amazingly I wasn't until I started typing/thinking more about it. When I originally read an article outlining the same GrandAm accident in my C&D magazine, I thought those guys were being a little over-reactive. But now I understand why
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