$4,735 per foot. Thank you taxpayers!

[rudder]

Who said there would be no wasteful spending with all this stimulus money floating around. This is one of California's anticipated road projects to be completed with stimulus money.

$75 million to repave a 3-mile stretch of Interstate 710 in Los Angelese.

California road projects.

Does this seem excessive? I am not familiar with Interstate 710 so may be the DOT in California needs to build another road first to be able to pave this one. But $25 million per mile? I think Tennessee has some great interstates and they spend about $1 million per mile.

But I guess it is not as bad as Ohio wanting to spend $57 million to STUDY roads.

Text

So far it has not been approved at least.

I could hire a lot of people for $57 million. I thought the purpose of the stimulus money was to create jobs? To me this seems like a few consulting companies will make bank but won't help Ohio's unemployment rate much.

 

[babylon5]

Perhaps they use gold as top coating material?

Or they pay $200 dollars an hour to some lucky workers?

 

[trenchfoot]

<sarcasm> It's those damn unions I tell ya, It's those damn unions that's causing it. All those millions of illegals just standing around that can do the job for pennies on the dollar but the unions ain't having none of it. </sarcasm>

edit - If the job went to the lowest bidder, then that's that.

But if these projects are geared toward creating jobs and stimulating the economy, then it's a whole different story.

 

[Thump553]

Like the OP I know nothing about the cost of highway building. A quick google search turned up this , which mentions that highway costs in cities are far higher because of displacement costs, and mentions 710 as an example.

Be grateful it's not NYC-the article I linked mentioned $333 million per mile for one project there - in 1996.

Then again, there should be little or no displacement cost in a repaving project (assuming no widening), so who knows?

One extremely surprising article I read recently (I think in the local paper) indicated those wooden sound barriers (really reflectors) along the highway cost 1.5 million per mile. That's insane.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: tweaker2
<sarcasm> It's those damn unions I tell ya, It's those damn unions that's causing it. All those millions of illegals just standing around that can do the job for pennies on the dollar but the unions ain't having none of it. </sarcasm>

Prevailing wage, look it up.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: tweaker2
<sarcasm> It's those damn unions I tell ya, It's those damn unions that's causing it. All those millions of illegals just standing around that can do the job for pennies on the dollar but the unions ain't having none of it. </sarcasm>

Prevailing wage, look it up.

Yeah, government work tries to level the field, but I question how effective it truly is. I know some areas require a percentage residency.

 

[ElFenix]

how much is that a square foot?

 

[magomago]

I've driven on the 710 a few times and it isn't built in nice flat open areas. Usually I hit the 405/55/57/60 etc more so I can't provide details on 710. 25 million is a LOT, but you have to see how difficult it is with everything packed very closely. Of course the question is how much is really attributed to cost (as Thump brought up) and how much is just padding contractors (which most likely always happens).

If its clearing open the 5 on portions where you have nothing built around it....I'm sure its cheap.
If its trying to expand the 405 at virtually any point...good luck with trying to control the cost on that (and good luck trying to divert traffic and not make rush hour worse than it already is!)

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: tweaker2
<sarcasm> It's those damn unions I tell ya, It's those damn unions that's causing it. All those millions of illegals just standing around that can do the job for pennies on the dollar but the unions ain't having none of it. </sarcasm>

edit - If the job went to the lowest bidder, then that's that.

But if these projects are geared toward creating jobs and stimulating the economy, then it's a whole different story.

There are plenty of cheap, willing and legal hires that will work on these jobs.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: tweaker2
<sarcasm> It's those damn unions I tell ya, It's those damn unions that's causing it. All those millions of illegals just standing around that can do the job for pennies on the dollar but the unions ain't having none of it. </sarcasm>

edit - If the job went to the lowest bidder, then that's that.

But if these projects are geared toward creating jobs and stimulating the economy, then it's a whole different story.

There are plenty of cheap, willing and legal hires that will work on these jobs.

Put your money where your mouth is. Hire these people and then bid lowwer on the project.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: tweaker2
<sarcasm> It's those damn unions I tell ya, It's those damn unions that's causing it. All those millions of illegals just standing around that can do the job for pennies on the dollar but the unions ain't having none of it. </sarcasm>

edit - If the job went to the lowest bidder, then that's that.

But if these projects are geared toward creating jobs and stimulating the economy, then it's a whole different story.

There are plenty of cheap, willing and legal hires that will work on these jobs.

Put your money where your mouth is. Hire these people and then bid lowwer on the project.

It is pointless as the govt dictates the prevailing wage is the min wage one can pay for these types of contracts.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: magomago
I've driven on the 710 a few times and it isn't built in nice flat open areas. Usually I hit the 405/55/57/60 etc more so I can't provide details on 710. 25 million is a LOT, but you have to see how difficult it is with everything packed very closely. Of course the question is how much is really attributed to cost (as Thump brought up) and how much is just padding contractors (which most likely always happens).

If its clearing open the 5 on portions where you have nothing built around it....I'm sure its cheap.
If its trying to expand the 405 at virtually any point...good luck with trying to control the cost on that (and good luck trying to divert traffic and not make rush hour worse than it already is!)

the 405 is fucked beyond belief. They need to double decker that mofo. I live on the west side and my gf lives in riverside 60 miles away,, on fridays if I leave at 2:30pm I would get to her place at 6:30pm :disgust: I would idle to the i-10 I would then idle down to the 60 and then idle on the 60 to riverside. It sucks!! Wilshire blvd coming out of Santa Monica 45 minutes to go 3 blocks because of the 405. olympic is muuuuuch better

edit: I guess my point is we need all the road work we can get

 

[MotF Bane]

Change and hope!

 

[sactoking]

Based on what I've seen on other CalTrans projects I've underwritten, it's not too exorbitant. First off, 710 is not an Interstate, but it was built to those standards. That means wider roads and a thicker pour. Add in traffic mitigation and logistical nightmares. Those concerns will stretch the job out past 365CD, that's my guess. Add in material uncertainty for a job longer than 1 year. Add in extra bond costs for a job over 1 year.

Compare the cost/linear foot to CalTrans emergency repair contracts. Doing a 10 or 20 foot emergency repair on I-5 typically goes for a couple hundred thousand dollars.

 

[Fern]

I recently paid (along with a few neighbors) to have about 100' repaved in front of my house (private road we have to maintain).

It was like $2,000.

Somebody's making a killing in the repaving business. Somebody else is probably getting some fat campaign contributions.

Fern

 

[Gooberlx2]

Perhaps you ought to consider the square footage, not linear footage. According to google maps, it looks i-710 is 8 lanes, plus shoulders. Lets say it's 100 feet wide. (5280x3)x100 = 1,584,000 sqft. 75,000,000/1,584,000 = $47.3 / sqft. When you consider extra costs for median repairs, drainage, underground lines, etc...I dunno...it seems a lot more reasonable that way.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: Fern
I recently paid (along with a few neighbors) to have about 100' repaved in front of my house (private road we have to maintain).

It was like $2,000.

Somebody's making a killing in the repaving business. Somebody else is probably getting some fat campaign contributions.

Fern

Do you really know how much it is to pave high volume roads? How many inches of AC did you repave? Did you redo the subbase and subgrade? A high volume road with a ton of trucks running past it needs a damn good pavement structure.

I doubt they're actually reconstructing the whole thing from scratch, but pavements are not cheap and not easy to design.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: Fern
I recently paid (along with a few neighbors) to have about 100' repaved in front of my house (private road we have to maintain).

It was like $2,000.

Somebody's making a killing in the repaving business. Somebody else is probably getting some fat campaign contributions.

Fern

If the Cal DOT is anything like NJ DOT / PA DOT then the bidding process is an open bid with little to no chance of any collusion with anyone in the dept.

And contractors do make money but it is usually between 5 & 15% depending upon many factors. And these projects have a lot of costs which are not obvious to a casual observer. It's silly to compare repaving a private road with major roads. Almost everything is different.

Nobody is making a killing. They make money on volume. Even a 10% profit on 75 million is 7.5 million which is a decent amount of money. But there are costs to running a company that big which have to be borne out of that profit.

 

[glenn1]

The state is going bankrupt anyway and I don't give a shit. The rest of the country should write them off likewise.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: rudder
Who said there would be no wasteful spending with all this stimulus money floating around. This is one of California's anticipated road projects to be completed with stimulus money.

$75 million to repave a 3-mile stretch of Interstate 710 in Los Angelese.

California road projects.

Does this seem excessive? I am not familiar with Interstate 710 so may be the DOT in California needs to build another road first to be able to pave this one. But $25 million per mile? I think Tennessee has some great interstates and they spend about $1 million per mile.

But I guess it is not as bad as Ohio wanting to spend $57 million to STUDY roads.

Text

So far it has not been approved at least.

I could hire a lot of people for $57 million. I thought the purpose of the stimulus money was to create jobs? To me this seems like a few consulting companies will make bank but won't help Ohio's unemployment rate much.

I see you've met my wet steaming pile of shit friend. His name is "Stimulus."

Welcome to the party... btw, we're all getting together for tea tomorrow. You should join us.

 

[ohnoes]

A few things...

1) This project has not been let yet, but is scheduled for May. Not sure where LA times got their info, but Caltrans has it estimated at $40-60M, although the latest letting schedule has it around $64M.

2) This is only the programmed amount, and not actual bid or awarded amount; when the contract is actually awarded, the amount will most likely be lower.

3) When DOTs plan projects, they have either in-house or external engineers design the project and build an estimate based on raw materials, labor, Right of Way acquisitions (buying land), etc. I.e. It isn't a random amount pulled out of thin air, but rather calculated through software tools.

4) Factors such as right of way, utility relocations, etc. can really skew a project's price. Since this is downtown LA, I'd guess that those factors may be part of the reason for the high cost.

5) If you look at the limited project details which provide estimates on raw materials needed, the cost for just materials are coming out to ~$20M. Factor in that this is a 3 year project, and it's not too far of a stretch to think its a 40-60M project, especially when you include inflation.


Bottom line is that a lot of variables affect road construction, and things aren't as absurd as they seem at first. Of course, that's not to say things are always done correctly or on budget (big dig comes to mind).

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: ohnoes
A few things...

1) This project has not been let yet, but is scheduled for May. Not sure where LA times got their info, but Caltrans has it estimated at $40-60M, although the latest letting schedule has it around $64M.

2) This is only the programmed amount, and not actual bid or awarded amount; when the contract is actually awarded, the amount will most likely be lower.

3) When DOTs plan projects, they have either in-house or external engineers design the project and build an estimate based on raw materials, labor, Right of Way acquisitions (buying land), etc. I.e. It isn't a random amount pulled out of thin air, but rather calculated through software tools.

4) Factors such as right of way, utility relocations, etc. can really skew a project's price. Since this is downtown LA, I'd guess that those factors may be part of the reason for the high cost.

5) If you look at the limited project details which provide estimates on raw materials needed, the cost for those are coming out to ~$20M. Factor in that this is a 3 year project, and it's not too far of a stretch to think its a 40-60M project, especially when you include inflation.


Bottom line is that a lot of variables affect road construction, and things aren't as absurd as they seem at first. Of course, that's not to say things are always done correctly or on budget (big dig comes to mind).

3 years to pave 3 miles? I guess that's how unions roll.

I do agree with you about the materials costs. With California's tax rate, even concrete can be expensive.

 

[ohnoes]

:shrug:... most dot road projects operate on timeline of years. If you look at any of their scheduling templates, they're generally quite long. And they're not just repaving the road, they're also widening it. At any rate, this is only phase 2 of a larger project.

 

[ohnoes]

Actually, I don't know when the last time they did the estimate or what they used, but the way these estimating tools generally operate is by using historical bid prices for raw materials, and so they could be off if Caltrans didn't account for the recent drops in raw materials cost. If they didn't, the actual bids could come in much lower.

 

[Thump553]

ohnoes: Thanks for bringing some knowledge and expertise to this thread. Its a lot more valuable than our speculations.