3DXpoint (Intel/Micron) usage beyond DIMMs?

[cbn]

SSDs have been the first usage and I know Intel is offering 3DXpoint as system memory in its upcoming Servers. (Cascade lake is the first Xeon that supports Optane DIMMs)......but where else to do you think 3D Xpoint will be used?

Maybe as a replacement for DRAM in Hybrid Memory Cube?

P.S. Apparently this technology (when used for DIMMs) does need some actual dram available somewhere in the system to work correctly. On on an Intel processor (using 3DXpoint DIMMs) this would happen via a small amount of eDRAM on the processor package.

 

[cbn]

U.2 SSHDs using 3DXpoint?

P.S. While it is true than NAND could also be used for a U.2 SSHD, it would take quite a bit of it (depending on the quality) to saturate sequential read not only for PCIe 3.0 x 4.... but also PCIe 4.0 x 4 and PCIe 5.0 x 4 (looming on the horizon).

https://www.nextplatform.com/2017/07/14/system-bottleneck-shifts-pci-express/

 

[cbn]

Here is some info from the following AMD 2017 Research Paper (which looks farther into the future of HPC APUs) --> http://www.computermachines.org/joe/publications/pdfs/hpca2017_exascale_apu.pdf

Looking through that Paper I noticed AMD wants to supplement the estimated 256 GB of on die HBM-type memory (per node) with off package Hybrid Memory cubes (which use DRAM) as well as (in some cases) Non-volatile memory devices:

2) External-memory Network: The exascale target for per-node memory capacity is at least 1TB, which exceeds our in-package projections by a factor of four. As such, the ENA must augment the in-package memory with additional external memory. The ENA makes use of Memory Networks that consist of multiple memory modules interconnected with point-to-point links (as opposed to bus-based topologies for DDR) [29], [30]. A current example of this kind of memory approach is the Hybrid Memory Cube, which uses 3D-stacked DRAM inside each module, and the modules communicate with high-speed serial interfaces [31]

Depending on the exact needs of the supercomputer customer, the external-memory network could consist of a mix of both DRAM and non-volatile memory (NVM) devices. NVM provides higher densities and therefore could be useful in scenarios where very large problem sizes are important, or they could be used to reduce the total ENA board-level component count by meeting a given capacity target with fewer higher-capacity packages. The trade-off is that the NVMs are typically slower, consume more dynamic power (especially for writes), and may suffer from write endurance issues that could impact the system’s MTTF.

This seems like one good application for Hybrid Memory Cube with 3DXpoint rather than DRAM.

 

[whm1974]

I'm wondering just what Intel and Micro are doing with 3D Xpoint at the moment, are they planning on using it for SSDs anytime soon? Seriously Intel should have released a large U.2 drive and PCIe x4 M.2 stick at prices competitive with Flash SSDs in the first place.

 

[cbn]

I'm wondering just what Intel and Micro are doing with 3D Xpoint at the moment, are they planning on using it for SSDs anytime soon? Seriously Intel should have released a large U.2 drive and PCIe x4 M.2 stick at prices competitive with Flash SSDs in the first place.

Well, they do have 16GB and 32GB M.2280 PCIe 3.0 x 2 SSDs (these meant for accelerating hard drives):

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11210/the-intel-optane-memory-ssd-review-32gb-of-kaby-lake-caching

And they did release the DC P4800X for Enterprise:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1120...ep-dive-into-3d-xpoint-enterprise-performance.

 

[Billy Tallis]

I'm wondering just what Intel and Micro are doing with 3D Xpoint at the moment, are they planning on using it for SSDs anytime soon? Seriously Intel should have released a large U.2 drive and PCIe x4 M.2 stick at prices competitive with Flash SSDs in the first place.

3D XPoint produces about the same quantity of GB per wafer as 20nm planar NAND flash, except 3D XPoint uses a more complicated manufacturing process with materials that haven't been commonly used for memory manufacturing before. It's fundamentally impossible for first-generation 3D XPoint to be cost competitive with current 3D NAND flash memory on a per GB basis. And that's assuming yields are good, and ignoring that the higher performance means there would be much higher demand for 3D XPoint than flash if its price ever got close to flash.

 

[whm1974]

Well thanks for pointing that out.

 

[dullard]

I'm wondering just what Intel and Micro are doing with 3D Xpoint at the moment, are they planning on using it for SSDs anytime soon? Seriously Intel should have released a large U.2 drive and PCIe x4 M.2 stick at prices competitive with Flash SSDs in the first place.

Intel released a cheap low-end version and an expensive server version when Optane first came out. But, they left out a gaping hole the middle, where much of us computer forum readers would like drives to be. Intel has hinted at U.2 Optane drives, but hasn't released one yet. Then with the Coffee Lake (barely more than paper) launch, the 300 series have all been listed as "next gen" Optane support: http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/...ee-Lake-and-300-Series-Platform-Details_3.jpg But there was no information as to what is this "next gen" Optane.

But in the last two weeks, there are now rumors of an Intel Optane announcement on October 27. https://www.tweaktown.com/news/59462/intel-launch-second-gen-optane-900p-ssds-very-soon/index.html Here is another link: http://www.pcgameshardware.de/SSD-H...0P-480-GB-Citizencon-1240048/galerie/2796550/ I sure hope it is an Optane based SSD for enthusiast conusmers like the rumors suggest.

 

[Billy Tallis]

But in the last two weeks, there are now rumors of an Intel Optane announcement on October 27. https://www.tweaktown.com/news/59462/intel-launch-second-gen-optane-900p-ssds-very-soon/index.html Here is another link: http://www.pcgameshardware.de/SSD-H...0P-480-GB-Citizencon-1240048/galerie/2796550/ I sure hope it is an Optane based SSD for enthusiast conusmers like the rumors suggest.

Intel did confirm this spring that there would be a "consumer" Optane SSD counterpart to the DC P4800X, planned initially for Q3. So that's a bit overdue. "Next Gen Intel Optane memory" could also refer to a newer M.2 caching drive with a PCIe x4 interface instead of x2.

 

[cbn]

16GB (or 32GB) USB Thumb drive?

Would be interesting to use with Microsoft ReadyBoost considering the QD1 4K read is so high with NVMe:

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/is-readyboost-still-an-effective-tool-in-windows-10/

Once ReadyBoost is enabled, it keeps tabs on hard disk operations and will only go into action reading and delivering files from its copy of the cache when doing so will boost performance. For example, during sequential read operations, ReadyBoost will allow SuperFetch to use the cache on the hard disk, since the hard disk can outperform flash-based drives for these types of read operations. During nonsequential read operations, ReadyBoost will essentially redirect SuperFetch to use the cache on the flash-based drive.

To ensure the safety, integrity, and efficiency of the ReadyBoost system, Microsoft added several safeguards. To begin with, the data on device is automatically encrypted using the Advanced Encryption Standard—AES 128. So if you lose the device, you won't have to worry about someone getting access to data. While the operating system will actually work from the cache on the device, all the data in the cache is mirrored on the hard disk. Therefore, if you inadvertently remove the device while it's in use by ReadyBoost, the operating system will immediately fall back to the cache on the hard disk and pick up where it left off.

Ideally it would be "FIT Size" so it could even work (mobile) with laptops: