3D Printers.

[Kaido]

Just saw a great 3D printed food commercial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijNAMpNTim8

Not that far off...they already have pancake printers, sugar printers, and NASA is working on flavor bar printers.

 

[sdifox]

I've work as a quality tech for 7 years and I'll confess that I have almost no experience in manufacturing plastics and alike substances as most of my experience comes from steel, and aluminum. Aside from products that have a mechanical or electrical function (which would most likely be made on a CNC), the lowest tolerances you'll see for most parts is around +/- 0.1mm (or .004 off the top of my head) and even then that is rare as .5 mm is much more typical. There do exist things don't go through a CNC with lower tolerances, but I assure you that tolerances aren't being held reliably and alot of waste is involved in the process.

As for my intrest in a 3D printer. I'd say that at this point it would probably be for quicker prototyping and learning. So I'd probably go for something basic that would come with a few advanced features to use as I get better. I'd probably look into a better one once I figure out what I'm doing.

So just go with Shapeway. You cannot afford a machine that will produce result that you can be happy with.

 

[Kaido]

So just go with Shapeway. You cannot afford a machine that will produce result that you can be happy with.

That was exactly my problem...it would have been just another trinket taking up space in my house rather than something actually useful. I always recommend Shapeways unless it's something you want to tinker with for fun (or actually have a use for, given that a single print can take like 8 hours).

 

[dave_the_nerd]

This is the thought process about 3d printers that I hate. There are about a thousand different types of plastic. There are engineers who design things out of certain plastics in certain ways because they've been educated in material science and design. Just 3d printing something that looks like something else does not make it equivalent. Is that blender lid made from a material that's rated as safe for food contact by the FDA? How's it going to hold up in your dishwasher? Is it going to crumble into your food because you washed it with the wrong detergent? Or is it going to start flaking over time, leaving garbage in your food?

People seem to think that if two widgets have the same dimensions, they are compatible. Um, no. If you're generally ecstatic with poor quality made in China knock off anything, then you'd probably be totally happy with 3d printed junk!

Do you really think 3D printer nerds aren't taking that into account, or are you actually unaware of all the different available materials, finishing processes, etc., and think that everything is made from PLA with 10% infill and no surface prep?

 

[DrPizza]

That's what they said about PCs 30 years ago and the internet 20 years ago respectively.

The thing is that for the average person, a 3D printer wouldn't be much more than a toy. This would at least be the case until when and if someone figures out a way to make it easy to design 3d printed objects in WYSIWYG kind of way. And even then I seriously doubt that WYSIWYG would deliver the kind of accuracy that you would need to create sophisticated designs that would function.

However, I think that 3D printers have enormous potential in the hands of a skilled individual.

Sure, "they" may have said that about PCs 30 years ago, but "they" weren't composed of people whose opinions meant anything. 30 years ago, I was helping a major manufacturing company computerize its lab, as well as integrate PCs into the business department and shipping/ordering departments. People were buying Apple IIs just to run Visicalc in the early 80s. By about 1984, Lotus 123 immediately overtook Visicalc in sales. So, only a moron 30 years ago wouldn't have realized the usefulness of PCs.

I view it as a potential money-saver.

Things like this: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1006834

Look around at how much stuff you have that's made out of plastic. If you can 3D model it, you can get a new one for the price of filament.

I've also used it to make little brackets, jigs, and adapters for some woodworking projects, case mods, etc. Replaced the corner brackets I lost from my strap clamp, made some limit switch holders for a CNC machine.

If you're not somebody who makes stuff regularly, I don't think a 3D printer will change that though.

It's ridiculous to think it's a money saver. From a materials engineering point of view, you're not going to 3-D print all these parts and have them serve the same purpose. A few posts up, someone has a link to the youtube video of a very large wrench being duplicated. Do you know how much torque a very large steel wrench is capable of? There's a reason manufacturers who mass produce wrenches make them out of steel - the same reason a garage buys Snap-on tools, and not Fisher Price tools.

This is the thought process about 3d printers that I hate. There are about a thousand different types of plastic. There are engineers who design things out of certain plastics in certain ways because they've been educated in material science and design. Just 3d printing something that looks like something else does not make it equivalent. Is that blender lid made from a material that's rated as safe for food contact by the FDA? How's it going to hold up in your dishwasher? Is it going to crumble into your food because you washed it with the wrong detergent? Or is it going to start flaking over time, leaving garbage in your food?

People seem to think that if two widgets have the same dimensions, they are compatible. Um, no. If you're generally ecstatic with poor quality made in China knock off anything, then you'd probably be totally happy with 3d printed junk!

Another thing is - how freaking careless are people that they are breaking things all the time? I think I've owned a blender for about... well forever. I've broken the lid on it exactly zero times. In fact, I'm struggling to think of the last time when I broke something that I would have wanted to print out a replacement. Hurray! I cracked a switch plate. Let's see, I could print out a new switchplate at a cost of several dollars in materials, plus a percentage of the original cost of the 3-D printer. Or, I could wait until tomorrow and buy a replacement for 50 cents or less. The beautiful thing about mass manufacturing - it brings down the price. You'll never compete on price on replacement parts, except for replacement parts that are proprietary and only manufactured by one company with a patent. That being the case, I have no doubt that if 3-D printing gets popular for replacing such over-priced replacement pieces, the only ones who are going to get the plans for printing those are the same people using Pirate Bay today - a very very small percentage of the overall population. Thus, 3-D printers will never be cheaper than just purchasing cheap mass produced parts, and it will be so difficult for the average person to get plans for non-widely available parts that it wouldn't be worth the bother to own a 3-D printer. The only people who will own them are 3-D hobbyists.

 

[DrPizza]

Do you really think 3D printer nerds aren't taking that into account, or are you actually unaware of all the different available materials, finishing processes, etc., and think that everything is made from PLA with 10% infill and no surface prep?

This is very true. But yet, it's another reason why 3-D printers aren't going to be a common household item beyond hobbyists. You're still not going to be able to match all of the characteristics and properties of many manufactured items. And, it's insane to think that the average homeowner is going to want to have all of these different types of raw materials available for some 3-D printer that can do a variety of different manufacturing processes.

 

[Brainonska511]

Another thing is - how freaking careless are people that they are breaking things all the time? I think I've owned a blender for about... well forever. I've broken the lid on it exactly zero times. In fact, I'm struggling to think of the last time when I broke something that I would have wanted to print out a replacement. Hurray! I cracked a switch plate. Let's see, I could print out a new switchplate at a cost of several dollars in materials, plus a percentage of the original cost of the 3-D printer. Or, I could wait until tomorrow and buy a replacement for 50 cents or less. The beautiful thing about mass manufacturing - it brings down the price. You'll never compete on price on replacement parts, except for replacement parts that are proprietary and only manufactured by one company with a patent. That being the case, I have no doubt that if 3-D printing gets popular for replacing such over-priced replacement pieces, the only ones who are going to get the plans for printing those are the same people using Pirate Bay today - a very very small percentage of the overall population. Thus, 3-D printers will never be cheaper than just purchasing cheap mass produced parts, and it will be so difficult for the average person to get plans for non-widely available parts that it wouldn't be worth the bother to own a 3-D printer. The only people who will own them are 3-D hobbyists.

The only time I've thought about getting a 3D printed part was when this plastic ring in my grinder that holds the top blade in place broke in half. But a call the next day to Bodum about buying a new ring led to them simply sending me a new top-blade assembly (blade + plastic holder ring) for free. I just can't see the current benefit of individual ownership of 3D printers.

This is the thought process about 3d printers that I hate. There are about a thousand different types of plastic. There are engineers who design things out of certain plastics in certain ways because they've been educated in material science and design. Just 3d printing something that looks like something else does not make it equivalent. Is that blender lid made from a material that's rated as safe for food contact by the FDA? How's it going to hold up in your dishwasher? Is it going to crumble into your food because you washed it with the wrong detergent? Or is it going to start flaking over time, leaving garbage in your food?

People seem to think that if two widgets have the same dimensions, they are compatible. Um, no. If you're generally ecstatic with poor quality made in China knock off anything, then you'd probably be totally happy with 3d printed junk!

http://cen.acs.org/articles/93/web/2015/11/3-D-Printed-Parts-Leach.html

Zebrafish exposed to disks printed with stereolithography lacked normal coloring, showed abnormal swelling, and died within a week, similarly to Oskui’s initial observations. In contrast, fish exposed to disks printed with fused deposition modeling mostly developed and survived similarly to controls.


Stereolithography-based printers use light to polymerize layers of a liquid resin usually containing acrylate and methacrylate monomers, a class of chemicals known to be toxic. The researchers hypothesize that monomers or short-chain polymers that are not fully polymerized could be leaching from the parts. Fused deposition modeling, on the other hand, builds parts from melted, fully polymerized material that then resolidifies.



In an effort to reduce the toxic effects of stereolithography-printed pieces by completing polymerization, the team exposed the printed parts to ultraviolet light for an hour, and found that this mostly obviated the toxic effects on the zebrafish. The findings are too preliminary to draw conclusions about human toxicity, Grover says, but they indicate that 3-D printing waste should be carefully managed to prevent harm to ecosystems.

Yep. Gotta be careful about what you're going to use with food. At least in preliminary tests with zebrafish, there seems to be a small amount of cause to be suspicious of using home-printed materials for replacing kitchen parts.

 

[gorobei]

3d printing is still relatively nascent.
new polymers and metal mediums, traditional small volume casting techniques, along with improving laser systems like the glowforge will likely yield some far more radical version of 3d printing in a decade. future processes will have far better structural properties that will obsolete any delamination issues with sla or fdm.

i came across an podcast interview with the shapeways people, they cover some of the future prospects. they are a little optimistic about average joe learning to be able to learn 3d modeling much less learn how to compensate for the slicing and printing process.
https://soundcloud.com/a16z/3d-printing-final

as far as real world applications, there's a yt vid on a guy printing up a replacement gear/screw for a 20 year old motorcycle speedometer link. while novel shapes/inventions are the current use, replacements for low volume or no longer produced mass market parts will be one of the bigger markets. the replacement gear was printed in nylon and seems to have held up, though he hasnt made any vids with a long term update.

with metal sintering printing and subsequent laser subtractive manufacturing, there is no reason custom parts for niche uses wont take off in a decade or less. it wont be in every home, but there will be plenty of kinko's type local service stores for most aspiring types.

 

[l0cke]

The only time I've thought about getting a 3D printed part was when this plastic ring in my grinder that holds the top blade in place broke in half. But a call the next day to Bodum about buying a new ring led to them simply sending me a new top-blade assembly (blade + plastic holder ring) for free. I just can't see the current benefit of individual ownership of 3D printers.



http://cen.acs.org/articles/93/web/2015/11/3-D-Printed-Parts-Leach.html
Yep. Gotta be careful about what you're going to use with food. At least in preliminary tests with zebrafish, there seems to be a small amount of cause to be suspicious of using home-printed materials for replacing kitchen parts.

Eh, that article specifically mentions parts printed with stereolithography are toxic while parts printed with fused deposition modeling aren't. A majority of hobby 3D printers are FDM. I definitely still wouldn't 3D print food items though.

 

[Triumph]

Do you really think 3D printer nerds aren't taking that into account, or are you actually unaware of all the different available materials, finishing processes, etc., and think that everything is made from PLA with 10% infill and no surface prep?

No. No I don't. Because who the hell is this random guy that uploaded a part to a Makerbot (the lowest of the low quality 3d printers) share site? What are his credentials for anything? Just look at the image for a second. You can see the jagged edges on the part. All that effort when he could've just went to Walmart and bought one for 5 bucks?

 

[Rakehellion]

I view it as a potential money-saver.

Things like this: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1006834

Look around at how much stuff you have that's made out of plastic. If you can 3D model it, you can get a new one for the price of filament.

I've also used it to make little brackets, jigs, and adapters for some woodworking projects, case mods, etc. Replaced the corner brackets I lost from my strap clamp, made some limit switch holders for a CNC machine.

If you're not somebody who makes stuff regularly, I don't think a 3D printer will change that though.

Filament is expensive as hell. 3D printers are even more so.

 

[Rakehellion]

I've work as a quality tech for 7 years and I'll confess that I have almost no experience in manufacturing plastics and alike substances as most of my experience comes from steel, and aluminum. Aside from products that have a mechanical or electrical function (which would most likely be made on a CNC), the lowest tolerances you'll see for most parts is around +/- 0.1mm (or .004 off the top of my head) and even then that is rare as .5 mm is much more typical. There do exist things don't go through a CNC with lower tolerances, but I assure you that tolerances aren't being held reliably and alot of waste is involved in the process.

As for my intrest in a 3D printer. I'd say that at this point it would probably be for quicker prototyping and learning. So I'd probably go for something basic that would come with a few advanced features to use as I get better. I'd probably look into a better one once I figure out what I'm doing.

What would I want to print that doesn't have a mechanical function?

 

[Greenman]

Lot of different things. I'm a hobbyist in general, but I'd also see it as a learning tool.


There are very few things that are mass produced that actually need that level of accuracy and not everything we need is made of metal. You are very close minded. That being said, I hope I die before I get old.

Be careful what you wish for.

I remodel houses. I'm a plumber, an electrician, a carpenter. I'm pretty good at structural concrete, and a very good framer. I do most of the repairs on my vehicles and equipment, I customize my motorcycle a bit. I'm also a tool junkie, I own lots of gear. If I thought a 3d printer would help in my daily endeavors I would place the order this morning, a couple thousand dollars for a piece of equipment is a small investment. But I can't think of one single time that it would be worth having. They make small plastic assembly's slowly. For prototyping small parts I can see utility, for producing one offs and novelty junk I can see value. But those are limited applications, for most people 3d printers are a cool toy, and will continue to be a toy for some time.

 

[dullard]

I'll add myself to the naysayers. 3D printing MAY become highly useful to most people, or it may become the next 3D TV (a nice novelty).

1) 3D printing is not very accurate. The resolution is usually crap, and if the resolution is good, then the necessary machine time alone generally makes it too expensive to run. Making 1-off parts has in an intrinsic expense that mass production never will have. Sure, they can increase the speed and resolution in the next 30 years, but it will never have the cost advantage of mass production.

2) Layers of something are never the exact same as a single piece, even if the material is the same. Try 3D printing a cup to hold water with most 3D printers. It'll leak like a sieve as the small channels between layers wick water with capillary action. So, then you usually need secondary actions to fuse/melt/polish/paint/seal etc. the 3D printing to make it appear and function closer to the original. All of which are expensive and slow. Or think about the many cases where a single crystal is needed (silicon for computer chips for example) not many layers of that crystal. Or think about mechanical strength of layers vs. a solid piece. Or think about plastic molecular weight differences (you can't always get melt temperature within your 3D printing needs for a specific plastic without going to a different molecular weight), etc. These are not problems that are easily overcome.

3) Even if the 3D printing process wasn't a problem, you probably can't get the materials. Try actually obtaining the different resins for the thousands/millions of materials that you'll need. Want a nice really clear plastic (commonly cyclic olefin copolymer)? I've yet to find a supplier that will sell in volumes of less than a full train car. That'll be fun sitting in your basement (has to be protected from UV light and moisture so you won't be storing that train car in your backyard). This can be overcome, but you need to destroy the whole material supply business model first.

4) Finally, I spent months of time designing several key parts of my equipment. Do you honestly think that I'm going to post online the 3D drawings for you to print from? Hell no. That'll be $50k first.

I do use 3D printing to do a quick design test. Or nothing helps marketing more than 3D printing that instrument case for $2000 (raw plastic filament price, not including machine time or wear/tear) so they can put their hands on a proposed design. Or I've used 3D printing to make a positive mold in order to make the negative mold that will be used in production (after many secondary operations to correct the terrible 3D printing surface texture). But, I never currently use 3D printing in production. Not yet at least.

 

[Triumph]

But but...there's 3d printed parts on the space station!!!

 

[dave_the_nerd]

But but...there's 3d printed parts on the space station!!!

3D printed space stuff is to normal 3D printed stuff as a Space Shuttle is to a bottle rocket.

 

[Spacehead]

They've already started work on printing moving parts as well. If you have a few minutes, this is a really nice video on how they 3D-print a (large) adjustable wrench:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ-aWFYT_SU

Same company - same guy was on This Old House & built a mock-up of part of an addition for the remodel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PuNSD1SHPc

I've work as a quality tech for 7 years and I'll confess that I have almost no experience in manufacturing plastics and alike substances as most of my experience comes from steel, and aluminum. Aside from products that have a mechanical or electrical function (which would most likely be made on a CNC), the lowest tolerances you'll see for most parts is around +/- 0.1mm (or .004 off the top of my head) and even then that is rare as .5 mm is much more typical. There do exist things don't go through a CNC with lower tolerances, but I assure you that tolerances aren't being held reliably and alot of waste is involved in the process.

If you're talking about parts to make plastic molds you need way closer tolerances than that. +/- .0002 inch & we do it all day long on a surface grinder, not on a CNC mill. Even die cast mold parts are closer tolerance than what you said.

 

[Michael]

In general, 3D printing seems OK for toys like this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1679800548/dragonlocktm-28mm-scale-dungeon-gaming-terrain

And there are a lot of printers well under $500 these days that are fairly functional.

So if you want a little side hobby and are interested in such things, then it seems fine to me. I have not found any "mainstream" printers that are really plug and play and do not require a lot of maintenance and tinkering, though.

Michael

 

[MongGrel]

NM