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38 Leading Muslim Scholars release open letter to Pope Benedict....

M

magomago

Lifer
I just think its funny he doesn't read it now 😉 Maybe language translation is due then? We'll see...


http://www.islamicamagazine.com/online-...to-his-holiness-pope-benedict-xvi.html

scroll down and click on "Click here to view the full version of the letter"

Very well written letter. They spend their time pointing the Pope's mistakes when he commented on Islam, and then in the end they ensured that these 38 accept his apology. Its a mix of many different Muftis, professors at schools, and leaders in a few organizations.

Either way this is the type of response I enjoy infinitely more. Let us hope that Muslims remember the saying of Prophet Muhammed: "The ink of a scholar is worth more than the blood of a martyr"...or however it goes exactly 😉
 
A well written letter indeed. Very reasoned and respectful. Although I'm no expert on either Catholicism or Islam, I had no trouble reading/comprehending it's meaning. Hopefully Pope Benedict grasp it's true meaning and issue a real apology for his comments.

alzan
 
I have a question: did these prominent figures take a similar action, pressuring Shiaa and Sunni leaders in Iraq, as well as the leadership in Iran and Syria, to put an end to the secterian violence?

Call me a cynic, but to me it seems like they are putting a show....
 
Originally posted by: dna
I have a question: did these prominent figures take a similar action, pressuring Shiaa and Sunni leaders in Iraq, as well as the leadership in Iran and Syria, to put an end to the secterian violence?

Call me a cynic, but to me it seems like they are putting a show....
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Seeing as how, as far as I know, you are NOT a member of either the intelligence community or the leadership of any country in the Middle East, you probably have no idea what these leaders are talking about and with whom they are talking. The problems with sectarian violence in the Middle East can't be solved in an hour minus commercial breaks, things like this take time...if it "seems like they are putting on a show", my guess is that's because you are poorly informed and a little too biased by your anti-Muslim views. Perhaps they are full of crap, but if they AREN'T really working for peace in the Middle East, I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish here. The anti-west rhetoric is hugely important to the extremist cause (ask Osama), the good PR they might get in the West for doing this would not be worth the damage it would do to their relationship with the extremists...my gut feeling is that this represents a real effort on their part. Whether or not they will be able to do any good remains to be seen, but at least they are trying.
 
Not to take this too off topic: Find me WHERE any prominent religious figures are actively promoting sectarian violence in Iraq DNA.

The only ones I can think of are just POLITICIANS.

Even Ayatollah Sistani gave us and said he cannot do anymore, despite REPEATED PLEAS by one of the most authorative scholars on Islam to "stop that sh|t"

Even Moqtada Al Sadr wants a united Iraq, and his people in the parliment boycotted it because of the "federation" b.s.


The question isn't who is standing up to say "stop it" because MANY have called to the end of what is going on in Iraq...the question is how many are actively promoting what is going on in Iraq.
======================================

And yes, you must be very cynical to what amounts to potentially one of the most significant peices written by a group of Muslims to the Vatican this century and the past. I hope the pope's blunder sets up the scene for future dialogue where the debate of relgious theology can flourish in a Islamo-Christian or christo-islamic fashion (whichever you prefer 😉) the way it did in the past.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6050156.stm
 
I would like to know if these same 38 scholars are out there writing fatwas stating that killing in the name of Allah is not acceptable.

Look at all the time and effort put in by Muslims to counter the statements of the Pope and compare that to time spent on trying to combat terrorism within their own community.

The Pope wouldn't be making the comments he did if there was not a problem within Islam itself. Don't recall him attacking Hindus or Buddhas.

The moderate Muslims really need to ratchet up the anti-violence propaganda before it is too late and something even worse happens than 9-11 and Madrid and London.
Sooner or later some extreme Muslim group is going to get a hold of a WMD of some type and launch an attack killing many thousands of people and these same people writing letters to the Pope are going to be sitting around wondering why they are getting so much hatred from the west.

Post WW 2 the German?s and Japanese saw the atrocities that were committed in their names and went through a period of self reflection where they tried to understand why they could allow such awful things to happen. You see the lingering effects of that period today in the anti-hate laws in Germany and the aversion to Nuclear weapons in Japan.

The Muslim community needs to go through the same type of self reflection and decide if what they see being done by the extremists is what they want the world to think of when it thinks of Islam. And if not, then they need to come up with a way to counter those types of actions.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I would like to know if these same 38 scholars are out there writing fatwas stating that killing in the name of Allah is not acceptable.

Look at all the time and effort put in by Muslims to counter the statements of the Pope and compare that to time spent on trying to combat terrorism within their own community.

The Pope wouldn't be making the comments he did if there was not a problem within Islam itself. Don't recall him attacking Hindus or Buddhas.
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Yeah? And maybe he's just a stupid jackass. No offense, but I'd like to do my OWN thinking thanks...there is reason I'm not longer a practicing Catholic.

Edit: Sorry, that was kind of harsh...but the idea that it MUST be true because the Pope said it is silly, irrationally believing anything religious leaders say is NOT a good way to get anything good to come out of a situation. That's one of the problems our enemies have...

The moderate Muslims really need to ratchet up the anti-violence propaganda before it is too late and something even worse happens than 9-11 and Madrid and London.
Sooner or later some extreme Muslim group is going to get a hold of a WMD of some type and launch an attack killing many thousands of people and these same people writing letters to the Pope are going to be sitting around wondering why they are getting so much hatred from the west.

Post WW 2 the German?s and Japanese saw the atrocities that were committed in their names and went through a period of self reflection where they tried to understand why they could allow such awful things to happen. You see the lingering effects of that period today in the anti-hate laws in Germany and the aversion to Nuclear weapons in Japan.

The Muslim community needs to go through the same type of self reflection and decide if what they see being done by the extremists is what they want the world to think of when it thinks of Islam. And if not, then they need to come up with a way to counter those types of actions.
Click to expand...

Read the letter again, it's a public statement of more moderate Islamic beliefs. Yeah, it's a letter educating the Pope on some mistake he made, but it ALSO has a lot of things refuting the common beliefs of the Muslim extremists. If they put it in a letter to the Pope, I suspect they are spreading such views around their own communities as well.

The problem here is that you expect to see live, "Fox News Alert" coverage of societal reflecting and growth, and because you DON'T see it, you assume it's not happening. You talk down to Muslims like they need your brilliant mind to come up with this idea, when I'd venture to guess most of the moderates are already thinking along these lines. Just because it doesn't happen immediatly and you can't see it on TV doesn't mean it's not happening. It's easy to sum up the huge changes in post-war Germany and Japan from 60 years in the future, my guess is that the perspective at the time was somewhat more limited.
 
Rain, I here by offer my "brilliant" mind up to use by Muslim scholars, and thanks for calling me brilliant 🙂

For the record I am not Catholic, don't even go to church. Didn't really dig into what the Pope said either, just saw the over the top reaction of so many people and thought what is wrong here.

There are some major problems in Islam that need to be dealt with. Christianity had these problems as well, but we sorted our way through them quite a while ago. No more witches burning at the stake and stuff like that.

Maybe you are right and we don't see the moderates and their influence, but maybe they are not making that much of an effort either. What we do know is what we see in polls in places like England, and those polls are scary.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Yeah? And maybe he's just a stupid jackass. No offense, but I'd like to do my OWN thinking thanks...there is reason I'm not longer a practicing Catholic.
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Que?
Maybe he is a stupid jackass, but what he "noticed" wasn't a ground breaking discovery -- remember the cartoons from Denmark? Plenty of people reached a similar conclusion.

An interesting aspect of this whole letter-buissines is how much coverage it will get in the Islamic world, and how much effort are they going to make in order to disseminate it. If their entire effort is summed up by a letter, written in English, and sent to the pope, then I dare say that their action can be easily dismissed as propaganda aimed at people in the West.
 
i am extremely dissapointed with most of the replies thus far. Something extremerly important is totally tossed aside and disredited. There were pages and pages of threads condemning and mocking Muslims, and when a VERY diverse group of scholarly muslims take the time to organize and craft a letter many of you deride it as a "show". Look at the variety of people signed...if this is a show, then us muslims go to great lenghts to lie *rolls eyes*.
Here they are engaging in dialogue, and many muslim-haters attempt to cast them aside, and then biatch about how only violence is heare- we are selectively choosing WHO to listen to.


Then again this is P&N...where only outlandish 1/2 truth b*llshit gets 100 replies and 300 views, ane anyone seriously wanting to engage in real debate is tossed aside.
 
Magomago, I don't think it was a show. I am sure they are very sincere in their beliefs.

But the problem here isn't the Pope. He is not the one holding riots all across Europe. Nor is he or his followers flying planes into buildings, setting off bombs on trains or busses or strapping bomb vests to themselves and walking into Wedding receptions in Jordan.

Maybe the Pope was mistaken in what he said.
But one things is 100% sure, the fanatical Muslims are 100% wrong when they engage in violent acts in the name of Allah.

That is the problem, the people who claim the right to kill in the name of god. Not the Pope making some statement that half of Europe won't even listen too.
 
Originally posted by: alzan
A well written letter indeed. Very reasoned and respectful. Although I'm no expert on either Catholicism or Islam, I had no trouble reading/comprehending it's meaning. Hopefully Pope Benedict grasp it's true meaning and issue a real apology for his comments.

alzan
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Or else they'll behead those who insult Islam?

No, this is entirely backwards. A religion of peace should speak through its actions and be peaceful, not inciting perpetual violence or issuing death threats. Other religions put up with defamation continuously. Islam can join the 21st century and at least not riot over a call for peace, as the Pope?s address was.
 
, the fanatical Muslims are 100% wrong when they engage in violent acts in the name of Allah
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Okay I agree. But people take this persona of the idiots who fly a plane into a building and apply it to

a) the religion
b) every follower


Issues such as the Mohammed cartoons, etc. are all exacberated by other groups who take advantage of Muslims to deflect criticism from themselves...and although we see and comment on this, we as a society cannot help to jump up and scream "ITS THE EBIL MUSLIM".

The pope was wrong in what he did by using flase arguments to attempt to cast Islam in a bad light. Condem Bin Laden all you want, you won't find massive protests.
Right now its more important to cater and "court" the Muslims to help build a unified future rather than keep talking about how "evil" (and even insulting...its amazing how so many people need to insult religion in general. This doesn't go for just Islam - but even the disrespect Christianity is giving is appalling) we are. Many Muslims are catious because of the events of 9/11 and what is building on itself poses more of a problem and scares us. When people, especially important figures such as the pope who claims he is THE ultimate authority on Catholic Christianity, continue to speak what is NOT true...it creates a problem.

Taking this to the bigger picture ProfJohn: unless we convince through actions that we are interested in dialogue and interaction with Muslims, they (majority of muslims) will eventually run to the radicals. The RADICALS are the one that does not want dialogue - they are the ones that want to create and emphasize as if this massive gap has and WILL always exist, despite the fact that even in today's "enlightened" times there have been socities that are more integrated than us when it comes to the two religions. And if we allow that image to take over, then we are playing directly in the hands of radicals.

When Muslims extend out for dialogue, we should take it. As as a "Western Muslim", I'm always going to try to make and connect that bridge...despite what radicals on BOTH sides want. So when people who have an influence write, as you put it, a sincere letter...we should be more concerned with more and more dialogue so that we can cast away both of our misconceptions of eachother.

Its like a relationship between a guy and girl...90% of the problems that arise is because one doesn't know what the hell the other is doing or thinking...and a sucessful relationship is one where communication channels are always open.
So when we see letters such as these written, we need to applaud and reinforce them postively so that when a situation arises...we see more letters and dialogue in return rather than people screaming angrily. But with a media that lives on fear and sensationalism, its a hard thing to do so we need to try extra hard.
 
Guys, this is what the Pope wanted. Civil discussion bridging the gaps between two different religious cultures.

I'll agree that this doesn't let anyone off the hook for their violent miscues, and that Islam today is in a very bad way and really needs to be fixed, but this is a step in the right direction. If we can get real communication between religious leaders, we could perhaps prevent an all-out war.

The Pope needs to understand a few things. First, that many Muslims consider him the head of the Western 'invasion' into their culture. They think he is what the Catholics say he is, a direct conduit to the Christian Lord, or as close to one as anyone else on this planet. And so they hold him responsible for many things, most of the time unfairly. And when the Pope says things that can easily be misinterpreted, then there's going to be problems. You have to be careful.

These Muslim scholars also need to understand something. Firstly, that they don't represent the entirety of Islam. They can have their opinions and say on the matter, and their peaceful motions are great, but that's not near where Islam begins and ends. Many people operate under the name of Islam, and those people are legitimately part of the religion, whether these guys like it or not. So they can't just wash their hands of these people, eliminating responsibility the way Bush so likes to do when he calls countries he just doesn't want to deal with part of some 'axis of evil'. The Muslim community as a whole needs to take responsibility into their own hands and clean house. Yes, we know Islam is a religion of peace and whatnot, and that's not the issue. The issue is that no one is attempting to do anything about it. And when you place so much emphasis on something another person said, that doesn't effect anyone in any way imaginable, it just makes you look cheap, because you haven't really done anything about things that actually matter.

So, if we can get this kind of discussion going between people who can really make a difference, we can avert catastrophe. So I look at this letter as a starting point. No, it's not going to win a Nobel Peace prize (it's pretty self-serving), but at least it's a gesture to communicate which doesn't involve rioting and burning effigies.
 
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: magomago
When Muslims extend out for dialogue, we should take it.
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Tell that to Jack Straw.
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You mean like here? :

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=52&threadid=1939423&enterthread=y


Originally posted by: f95toli
Maybe it is worth pointing out that many muslim organizations here in the UK have WELCOMED the debatte, which does not neccesarily mean that they agree with HOW Straw started it (he could have expressed himself in a better way).

Now, the only problem with moderate muslims is that you can't sell newspapers or attract viewers if you report what they say; even if they happen to represent the majority (which they do in this); BBC has been reporting what the moderates are saying but the rags (tabloids) are doing their best to dig up the extreme views as usual and unfortunately the tabloids do have a lot of influence.

It is also worth noting that the veil is NOT a traditional muslim headdress, it has of course been used for a long time but its use used to be connected to culture/ethinicity, not religion. As far as I remember the "connection" between Islam and the veil as very recent; it became popular in Afghanistan around 1900 (members the king's harem started wearing it). In fact the veil is MORE popular now than it was just a few years ago.
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Aisengard: You make some interesting points


The Pope needs to understand a few things. First, that many Muslims consider him the head of the Western 'invasion' into their culture.
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I've never noticed that. Every Muslim I know was fond of Pope John Paul. We don't acknowledge him as ANY direct connection to God, but to say he wasn't a wise man is not something I've seen personally. Even the older generation (my parent's generation) had something good to say about him.
To sayu that there are not people who absolutely despise the pope is simply not true. I'm sure somewhere there are people whose eyes turn dark red and they being to hunger for blood when they hear the word...but I don't think it constitues a majority 😉

The "invasion" into their culture would probably be the white man's burden image that some people profess: that we need to go in and "Teach" them how to be modern and civilzed because they are all "backwards". As a westerner myself I entirely resent that logic.


These Muslim scholars also need to understand something. Firstly, that they don't represent the entirety of Islam. They can have their opinions and say on the matter, and their peaceful motions are great, but that's not near where Islam begins and ends.
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Then why cannot it go the OTHER WAY. I'm not looking at you specifically, and I'm talking in general. Why is it that we hear statements that "These Grand Muftis, religious leaders, and major institutes are not representative of Islam as a whole" but on the flip side we have people say that the actions of other idiots are representative of Islam. Is that not a double standard?

The issue is that no one is attempting to do anything about it.
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But when you speak of this, you speak as if it is a major problem~ as if over 20% of the world is an armed insurrection right now. When everyone around me and the majority of Muslims are peaceful, how can we control that few tenths of a percent? What they do is so foreign I'm not even attached to the least bit of their actions that why should I be going up and protesting massively at something that I could never understand.

In reality these types of discussion even constitute as dialogue...and its much better to actually engage in real discussion like we do now; as opposed to people who run in make a quick outlandish statement and jettison. If anything, I'm less that people who will actually talk to me will kill me than those who aren't interested in talking even if we disagree
 
Originally posted by: magomago
Aisengard: You make some interesting points


The Pope needs to understand a few things. First, that many Muslims consider him the head of the Western 'invasion' into their culture.
Click to expand...

I've never noticed that. Every Muslim I know was fond of Pope John Paul. We don't acknowledge him as ANY direct connection to God, but to say he wasn't a wise man is not something I've seen personally. Even the older generation (my parent's generation) had something good to say about him.
To sayu that there are not people who absolutely despise the pope is simply not true. I'm sure somewhere there are people whose eyes turn dark red and they being to hunger for blood when they hear the word...but I don't think it constitues a majority 😉
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Okay, I should have said that there are people who view him that way. And their numbers are not insignificant, so you have to be careful.

The "invasion" into their culture would probably be the white man's burden image that some people profess: that we need to go in and "Teach" them how to be modern and civilzed because they are all "backwards". As a westerner myself I entirely resent that logic.
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I'm not apologizing for the Western 'invaders'. I think Iraq was a terrible mistake, and while there's been other things that I regret the West doing, these past couple of years have really ratcheted up the hate and chaos.

These Muslim scholars also need to understand something. Firstly, that they don't represent the entirety of Islam. They can have their opinions and say on the matter, and their peaceful motions are great, but that's not near where Islam begins and ends.
Click to expand...

Then why cannot it go the OTHER WAY. I'm not looking at you specifically, and I'm talking in general. Why is it that we hear statements that "These Grand Muftis, religious leaders, and major institutes are not representative of Islam as a whole" but on the flip side we have people say that the actions of other idiots are representative of Islam. Is that not a double standard?
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that they're representative of Islam as a whole, and I've never said that and I never will. What I'm saying is that it is part of Islam, whether the people who say Islam is a religion of peace like it or not. And denying that is irresponsible at best.

The issue is that no one is attempting to do anything about it.
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But when you speak of this, you speak as if it is a major problem~ as if over 20% of the world is an armed insurrection right now. When everyone around me and the majority of Muslims are peaceful, how can we control that few tenths of a percent? What they do is so foreign I'm not even attached to the least bit of their actions that why should I be going up and protesting massively at something that I could never understand.
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It's just the attitude of people who continue to say that Islam is a religion of peace verbatim, and write off the loonies as something other than Islam. They aren't.

Just like the Americans have to acknowledge their President, whether they like him or not, or the white man has to acknowledge racism, whether they like it or not, or whether Republicans should be offended when in many people's views their party is synonymous with corruption. Everyone has to realize that things are being done in their name. Americans are doing their part to argue against Bush and his cronies, but we realize we are not going to be well-liked in places like the Middle East or Europe unless (maybe) we continually pronounce our displeasure with the Administration. The white man had to realize he is going to be associated with racism back in the 60s and 70s. He doesn't (or shouldn't) say "well, I don't believe in it so I don't have to do anything about it".

Muslims are part of a religion that is currently being used wrongly by bad people. So don't get your panties in such a bunch when people associate bad things with Islam.

In reality these types of discussion even constitute as dialogue...and its much better to actually engage in real discussion like we do now; as opposed to people who run in make a quick outlandish statement and jettison. If anything, I'm less that people who will actually talk to me will kill me than those who aren't interested in talking even if we disagree
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're saying here.
 
Originally posted by: Aisengard



It's just the attitude of people who continue to say that Islam is a religion of peace verbatim, and write off the loonies as something other than Islam. They aren't.

Just like the Americans have to acknowledge their President, whether they like him or not, or the white man has to acknowledge racism, whether they like it or not, or whether Republicans should be offended when in many people's views their party is synonymous with corruption. Everyone has to realize that things are being done in their name. Americans are doing their part to argue against Bush and his cronies, but we realize we are not going to be well-liked in places like the Middle East or Europe unless (maybe) we continually pronounce our displeasure with the Administration. The white man had to realize he is going to be associated with racism back in the 60s and 70s. He doesn't (or shouldn't) say "well, I don't believe in it so I don't have to do anything about it".

Muslims are part of a religion that is currently being used wrongly by bad people. So don't get your panties in such a bunch when people associate bad things with Islam.
Click to expand...

Quote for agreement.

It's unfair that entire groups, whether it's a race, political parties, got viewed in not so positive light just because 'some' members within those groups done wrong. You might not be able to do anything about those bad members, but trying to deny their existence within your group, when they keep using your group's name in public, how can you not expect people form some opinion? People are not statues. Ideally people always make logical decision, but that is not the reality.
 
Originally posted by: babylon5
Originally posted by: Aisengard



It's just the attitude of people who continue to say that Islam is a religion of peace verbatim, and write off the loonies as something other than Islam. They aren't.

Just like the Americans have to acknowledge their President, whether they like him or not, or the white man has to acknowledge racism, whether they like it or not, or whether Republicans should be offended when in many people's views their party is synonymous with corruption. Everyone has to realize that things are being done in their name. Americans are doing their part to argue against Bush and his cronies, but we realize we are not going to be well-liked in places like the Middle East or Europe unless (maybe) we continually pronounce our displeasure with the Administration. The white man had to realize he is going to be associated with racism back in the 60s and 70s. He doesn't (or shouldn't) say "well, I don't believe in it so I don't have to do anything about it".

Muslims are part of a religion that is currently being used wrongly by bad people. So don't get your panties in such a bunch when people associate bad things with Islam.
Click to expand...

Quote for agreement.

It's unfair that entire groups, whether it's a race, political parties, got viewed in not so positive light just because 'some' members within those groups done wrong. You might not be able to do anything about those bad members, but trying to deny their existence within your group, when they keep using your group's name in public, how can you not expect people form some opinion? People are not statues. Ideally people always make logical decision, but that is not the reality.
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Exactly, but people make logical decisions when there is not so much propaganda against muslims. You always hear of the car bombing going off, the suicide attacks, and the negative things that are going on in a world that is 180 degrees different from ours. When so much light is shown on the negative side of things, the scales are tipped unfavorably for muslims, and people make decisions that are based on what Fox reports.


 
Rainsford --
Yeah? And maybe he's just a stupid jackass. No offense, but I'd like to do my OWN thinking thanks...there is reason I'm not longer a practicing Catholic.
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I hardly doubt thats the reason your not a practicing Catholic!! But suffice to say thats between you and whatever God you believe in...

Since when is the Pope not allowed to comment on things that impact the world??

Did the Pope use the terminology all Catholics....or was there an assumption that the pope is talking for all catholics? NOT!!
 
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Rainsford --
Yeah? And maybe he's just a stupid jackass. No offense, but I'd like to do my OWN thinking thanks...there is reason I'm not longer a practicing Catholic.
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I hardly doubt thats the reason your not a practicing Catholic!! But suffice to say thats between you and whatever God you believe in...

Since when is the Pope not allowed to comment on things that impact the world??

Did the Pope use the terminology all Catholics....or was there an assumption that the pope is talking for all catholics? NOT!!
Click to expand...

My comment was less about what the Pope said or did not say than ProfJohn's reaction to the statement, suggesting that since the Pope made a comment "attacking" Muslims, clearly there must be a fundamental problem with Islam itself. As for my reasons for no longer being a practicing Catholic, you're right, my reasons are my own...but the attitude of my fellow Catholics played a MAJOR part in my decision. It wasn't the religion so much as the attitude towards the religion held by the followers, my objection here is very similar.

Of course I might be making too big a fuss over a comment made by someone who thinks practitioners of Buddhism are called "Buddhas".
 
Originally posted by: magomago
i am extremely dissapointed with most of the replies thus far. Something extremerly important is totally tossed aside and disredited. There were pages and pages of threads condemning and mocking Muslims, and when a VERY diverse group of scholarly muslims take the time to organize and craft a letter many of you deride it as a "show". Look at the variety of people signed...if this is a show, then us muslims go to great lenghts to lie *rolls eyes*.
Here they are engaging in dialogue, and many muslim-haters attempt to cast them aside, and then biatch about how only violence is heare- we are selectively choosing WHO to listen to.


Then again this is P&N...where only outlandish 1/2 truth b*llshit gets 100 replies and 300 views, ane anyone seriously wanting to engage in real debate is tossed aside.
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You just figuring that out? You've got a enough flyover-state idiots to stop a thread in its tracks.
FWIW, I respect their decision to craft a letter, but I do agree they could do more to guide Muslims away from the scimitar and toward peace. Why not issue fatwas condemning the WTC attacks? With all of the major Muslim scholars as signatories, it would carry weight.
 
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