36GB SATA HD or P4 3.0c?

[Overkast]

I'm building a new system and I have one of 2 choices to work within my budget:

1) Either I buy a P4 3.0c and get a single Western Digital 80GB HD (8MB) 7,200RPM IDE

or

2) I can get a P4 2.8c and use the saved $100+ to buy an additional Western Digital 36GB SATA HD @ 10,000RPM.

Any suggestions?

 

[SickBeast]

First choice.

If it were my system, I would be buying a 2.4C, some blazing fast memory, and a 120GB 8mb Maxtor.

Sounds like you're in for a lightning fast system.

 

[Overkast]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Sounds like you're in for a lightning fast system.

Yeah, I'm getting an ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe mobo with 1GB Mushkin 3500 Level 2 DDR... Hopefully my system is gonna be rockin!

Hell, if I wait until processor prices drop in a few weeks, I may be able to grab both the 3.0c AND the 36GB SATA HD.

That would be sweet.

 

[SickBeast]

The 36GB SATA is silly IMO.

Just wait until 10K RPM drives hit the mainstream with the rest of us. From what I've read, the raptor drives are hot and loud, and their capacity has alot to be desired.

Also, the 3.0C is a waste of money seeing as you're buying good memory. The 2.4C will have much better overclocking headroom and will save you at least $100 in the process. You could then put some of that $100 into a good HSF like the SLK-900U w/ a 92mm mid-speed fan.

Many people are uncomfortable with overclocking, but it's a delicate science. When done correctly you can save some money on hardware.

If you want me to be brutally honest, you should be going with AMD unless you do mission-critical video encoding.

 

[lchyi]

Raptors are not loud. Hot? I don't know really, I haven't opened up my case. But definitely not loud. They're a great drive and most people's bottlenecks are their hard drives. But if you're looking for speed, an alternative is to set up two 40gb in raid 0 mode and it's just as fast or faster. Plus you get more storage space than the measily 36gb Raptor. I have one and it serves as my "constantly used programs" hard drive and my 80gb acts as a media storage. It works really well and my computer's pretty blazin' fast without the 3.0ghz processor. I'd say, go for a lower speed proc (2.4C) and overclock it to 3.2ghz or so. Save yourself a couple hundred bucks.

 

[Johnbear007]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
The 36GB SATA is silly IMO.

Just wait until 10K RPM drives hit the mainstream with the rest of us. From what I've read, the raptor drives are hot and loud, and their capacity has alot to be desired.

Also, the 3.0C is a waste of money seeing as you're buying good memory. The 2.4C will have much better overclocking headroom and will save you at least $100 in the process. You could then put some of that $100 into a good HSF like the SLK-900U w/ a 92mm mid-speed fan.

Many people are uncomfortable with overclocking, but it's a delicate science. When done correctly you can save some money on hardware.

If you want me to be brutally honest, you should be going with AMD unless you do mission-critical video encoding.

]

By the time you pay for that heatsink and fan you almost have made up the difference in the processor speed prices

 

[SickBeast]

Yes, but what depreciates faster: heatsink or cpu?

He probably wouldn't even need better than stock cooling to have moderate overclocking success. My SK-7 and SLK-800 both work like a charm with 92mm delta fans on each of them.

In my eyes, a 2.4C+SLK-900 is a better option than a 3.0C.

 

[FPSguy]

2.4c

Overclock to 3Ghz with stock cooling

2 sticks of GEIL PC4000 memory

2 Raptors in a RAID array

I think that's faster than what you can get in AMD-land for the same amount of money, though I would be curious to see a comparison if an AMD fan wants to prove me wrong.

 

[RollWave]

raptors ARE loud. Read all the reviews...I wish i would've before I got mine. I compared the Raptor to 2 SATA 120gb Raid 0 and found no difference. The raid was just louder and had way less hard drive space

 

[Slammy1]

I also get disappointing performance from my Raptor. It's not really hot or loud, but it's definitely the loudest thing in my system. After defragging I opened the case and checked, but I do have it in front of my front intake.

 

[Jeff7181]

I own a Raptor and I don't think it's loud... I don't know what kinda of computers you have, but one case fan pretty much drowns out the sound of my Raptor... and the speed is not disappointing to me... I upgraded to it from a WD800JB. Games load quicker, file searches are quicker, Windows boots faster, and I installed Windows XP from the CD in 12 minutes. From the time I hit F6 to load the drivers to the time I was sitting at the desktop ready to go.
And... the Raptor is DEFINATELY NOT HOT. It sits right next to my WD800JB and the JB is hotter... not just by touch... but I measured it with my DMM and temperature probe. I don't remember the exact temps... but on average, the Raptor was 2 degrees C cooler in each place I measured on the casing.

 

[Overkast]

Well honestly, I've never overclocked or built my own rig before. This will be my first rig I ever build, and I was considering overclocking my processor for months. But then I started reading up on all these people who were overclocking their processors and the processor would die on them after like 6 months (probably due to exposure to excessive voltage over lengths of time).

I want my chips to last longer than 6 months because I can't guarantee that I'll be ready to buy an new processor in that period of time.

OC'ing is great for peeps who don't mind abusing their CPUs and getting new ones like hot cakes, but that's not my style. I'd rather have my hardware last the MFG warranty's tenure IF NEED BE.

Also, I'd rather buy Intel than AMD because my rig needs be be both a workstation AND a gaming unit. AMDs are great for the gaming aspect, but working earns me money... thus it is the more important quality of the two for me. I believe Intel is the better choice for my needs (although I'm always open for a good debate!).

Also Also, Anandtech actually did an article on Mushkin L2 3500 DDR and discovered that it is actually the best RAM you can buy if you are NOT going to overclock your CPU. It had the higest performance ratings running at standard speeds pretty much across the board. This is why I chose the RAM I chose.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Overkast
Well honestly, I've never overclocked or built my own rig before. This will be my first rig I ever build, and I was considering overclocking my processor for months. But then I started reading up on all these people who were overclocking their processors and the processor would die on them after like 6 months (probably due to exposure to excessive voltage over lengths of time).

I want my chips to last longer than 6 months because I can't guarantee that I'll be ready to buy an new processor in that period of time.

**Unless you feed your chip an absurd amount of voltage or do something silly, it will chug away long into its obsolescence.

OC'ing is great for peeps who don't mind abusing their CPUs and getting new ones like hot cakes, but that's not my style. I'd rather have my hardware last the MFG warranty's tenure IF NEED BE.

**Abuse? Hold on a second...if the chip runs 50% faster on stock voltage and maintains the same temperature as that of a stock chip, how is it abuse? How long were you planning to keep this P4, 12 years or so?

Also, I'd rather buy Intel than AMD because my rig needs be be both a workstation AND a gaming unit. AMDs are great for the gaming aspect, but working earns me money... thus it is the more important quality of the two for me. I believe Intel is the better choice for my needs (although I'm always open for a good debate!).

**How could you possibly suggest that an Athlon based computer would be an inferior workstation to a P4? What kind of applications will you be running? If it's no more than word, excel, autocad, and some engineering and rendering applications, AMD is a FAR better option. If, on the other hand, you plan on encoding divx 5 days a week while running photoshop and some sound editing while you're at it, the P4 may be the better choice. For gaming, it is very hard to beat an Nforce2/2500+ combination, AND you can save some money on memory. Even if you occasionally encode divx, the Athlon will get the job done. People seem to think that since they can afford the Mercedes of computer chips that they should just flock out and buy them. AMD is finally getting some brand recognition, but most people seem like they're stuck in the Endless Realm of Intel.

Also, Anandtech actually did an article on Mushkin L2 3500 DDR and discovered that it is actually the best RAM you can buy if you are NOT going to overclock your CPU. It had the higest performance ratings running at standard speeds pretty much across the board. This is why I chose the RAM I chose.

Again, expensive memory. You could get 2 sticks of 512mb samsung PC3200 and still be fine in AMD-land.

Also, what's with all of these raptors? They're nothing special, they spin 30% faster and store less data. Why not get 2 120gig SATA maxtors and run them in a Raid-0 array? You'll lose data security, but I'm 99% sure that this type of setup would annihilate the WD-dinosaur.

This concludes your friendly debate.

Maybe intel is the way to go for your first machine. I'm just biased against them

 

[MDE]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I own a Raptor and I don't think it's loud... I don't know what kinda of computers you have, but one case fan pretty much drowns out the sound of my Raptor... and the speed is not disappointing to me... I upgraded to it from a WD800JB. Games load quicker, file searches are quicker, Windows boots faster, and I installed Windows XP from the CD in 12 minutes. From the time I hit F6 to load the drivers to the time I was sitting at the desktop ready to go.
And... the Raptor is DEFINATELY NOT HOT. It sits right next to my WD800JB and the JB is hotter... not just by touch... but I measured it with my DMM and temperature probe. I don't remember the exact temps... but on average, the Raptor was 2 degrees C cooler in each place I measured on the casing.

I'm in the same boat except I upgraded from an 80GB Maxtor. Raptor installed XP in 15 minutes and is noticeably faster. RAID will only make it sweeter. My Raptor is just warm to the touch, I don't know where people go off saying that they're blazing fireballs. Lastly, it IS NOT LOUD. There's no whine, just a slight whirr. Come on it's spinning at 10,000 RPM people, it isn't going to be dead silent.

 

[orion7144]

Originally posted by: MonkeyDriveExpress

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I own a Raptor and I don't think it's loud... I don't know what kinda of computers you have, but one case fan pretty much drowns out the sound of my Raptor... and the speed is not disappointing to me... I upgraded to it from a WD800JB. Games load quicker, file searches are quicker, Windows boots faster, and I installed Windows XP from the CD in 12 minutes. From the time I hit F6 to load the drivers to the time I was sitting at the desktop ready to go.
And... the Raptor is DEFINATELY NOT HOT. It sits right next to my WD800JB and the JB is hotter... not just by touch... but I measured it with my DMM and temperature probe. I don't remember the exact temps... but on average, the Raptor was 2 degrees C cooler in each place I measured on the casing.

I'm in the same boat except I upgraded from an 80GB Maxtor. Raptor installed XP in 15 minutes and is noticeably faster. RAID will only make it sweeter. My Raptor is just warm to the touch, I don't know where people go off saying that they're blazing fireballs. Lastly, it IS NOT LOUD. There's no whine, just a slight whirr. Come on it's spinning at 10,000 RPM people, it isn't going to be dead silent.

Two raptors in RAID fly.. <10min to install WinXP Pro. There is no way 2 40gigs in RAID 0 will outperform the Raptor. Especially if they are in RAID 0.

I do agree that you should get the 2.4C instead.

 

[Overkast]

How are raptors for playing games? I hear they're not ideal for game playing. Is that true?

 

[beatle]

Raptors are currently the best bang for your buck in the realm of harddrives. I went from a Maxtor DM9 to a Raptor and never looked back. Even with a RAID 0 array of 7200 rpm drives, you're still stuck with the slow seek times.

 

[Mickey21]

Good gawd the crap being posted in here from hearsay. If you dont have the drives, and never dealt with them, please lose the review comment. You're helping no one. I dont mean to offend anyone but from personal extensive usage on my own accord, I can say the drives are extremely fast when compared to any other IDE drive configuration. My current configuration is :

P4 2.66ES watercooled (runs from 3.0 - 3.4+)
ABIT IC7-G
Dual Channel Corsair DDR 400 C2 Platinum (512MB X 2)
Dual SATA Raptor 36GB drives in RAID0
Maxtor 160GB
Dual WD 120GB drives in RAID0
Antec 400W PSU Black Mid Tower Case

Drives in real world performance show 107-108MB/s sustained average reads in throughput. No other IDE RAID configuration can really compete with that. My previous WD 120GB 8MB cache drives couldnt get 75% of that speed. The onboard Intel SATA RAID0 configuration is very efficient. Performed better than using the SI addon-board solution either. When I host LAN party events and people are pulling the game images from my box, it is really nice to get as much speed through the gigabit NIC as I can push so we can get with the gaming.

I say ditch the 2.8C for the 2.4C as well
buy TWO Raptor drives for the RAID0 effect.

That 2.4C will usually be able to pull very close to what the 3.0C will be able to do anyways. If you werent going to overclock, than this would all be a non-issue.

The Raptors are not too loud or hot. I actually cant feel a difference between the 120GB drives and the Raptor drives at all, especially since the Raptors have heat fins on them to help dissipate any additional heat that may come. As far as the noise from a drive? What performance drive doesnt make noise? It is definitely not unbearable. If your drive is quiet it is also most likely a poor performer. You my friend sound like you want to make a kiss @ss system, otherwise why would you ask the advice? After in RAID0 70GB of space is not paltry. You can always add "STORAGE" drives to the system later, they are a dime a dozen almost literally. If you want speed and value, get the Raptors, if you want to store your 70's porn and misc movies, well than you might want to look at some slower "storage" drives. If you want to game, get the Raptors. I dont know where this "not ideal for game playing" mentallity came from. But it is totally off....

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Overkast
How are raptors for playing games? I hear they're not ideal for game playing. Is that true?

Nope, it's completely false... the hard drive has absolutely nothing to do with gaming performance except when loading the game... and my Raptor loads BF1942 in 2/3 the time it took my WD800JB.

These people who tell you Raptors are loud, and performance isn't anything to get excited about don't own one, so don't listen to them... I own one, hell, I bought a refurbished one from newegg for $102.75 and people got their shorts in a knot saying it was going to die, and never buy refurbished hard drives or CD-ROM drives or anything with moving parts... well guess what... I've had it installed and running 24/7 since July 25th and it's not broken... newegg said on their site it wouldn't come with the 5 year warranty... I checked the S/N on WD's website, and they're right, it came with 5 years and 3 months =)

And for those of you bitching about the storage space... a Raptor's intended use is not to store gigabytes of your girl on girl pr0n you downloaded from kazaa... get a crappy 200 GB Maxtor drive for that... the Raptor is designed to be used as a boot drive to put Windows on, put your frequently used programs on... I mean shyt... if you can fill up 36 GB with Windows and programs, you are in the minority... I don't know anybody who can fill 36 GB with JUST PROGRAMS.

As for the performance... Average seek times on it are 8.5 milliseconds, and an average transfer rate of 48 MB per second, minimum of 31 MB per second, and a maximum of 78 MB per second. CPU utilization was 7.5% You may be able to set up a RAID 0 configuration and exceed those transfer rates... but I guarantee, you'll never see those kinda seek times.

What bugs me most is when people refer to the Raptor as a 36 GB SATA drive... neither of those are what's important about the drive and distinguish it from other drives... IT'S A HARD DRIVE WITH A SPINDLE SPEED OF 10,000 RPM

 

[boshuter]

I came very close to getting rid of my 73gig 10k scsi and going with 2 raptors, the slow seek times is what finally decided me against them. I ended up going with 2 36gig 15k scsi drives and have no regrets. You can find benchmarks or reviews to make anything you want look good. You are not going to get a non biased opinion by asking people what they recommend in most cases. Just do a LOT of research and make your best decision, if you are not happy with it, get rid of it and try something else. Right now I'm happy with the performance of my 2 scsi's, but knowing how I am, I would be willing to bet that within a short period of time I'll be looking for a scsi raid card for my drives...... IT NEVER ENDS..

 

[Overkast]

Thanks for putting me in my place guys.

Mickey, try not to get upset with me here. I have been doing a TON of research lately. In doing so, it's possible that I am mixing up my facts and thus asking the wrong questions. I'm still new to this stuff. I just convinced myself about 3 months ago to build my own rig for the first time. It took me a few months before that to make that decision.

I'm trying to be responsible about my decision making regarding how I structure my new system, and everyone's feedback is another little piece of knowledge in my cranium database that helps me along the way. I'm not sure WHERE exactly I may have heard that "Raptors don't play games well", but I can tell you that I AM doing my research from some pretty credible sources (including here). I usually don't ask questions out of heresay, or at least I try not to. But notice how detailed of a reply I got from you? THAT'S EXACTLY the type of input I need from people to avoid asking those types of questions, so thank you for helping me even though you were frustrated about it.

Hopefully, you can further appreciate that I am a "natively-bred Mac using Graphic Designer" who has a passion for PCs as well. I'm doing this stuff all by myself and learning it as I go, and the amount of knowledge I've gained just from 3 months of doing my research bettered me in more ways than most Graphic Designers would ever understand. Not only do I "use" a computer to get my job done, but now I know what makes it tick. To me, my computers are no longer just tools... they're theoretically living, breathing animals.

So this is why it's important for me to ask questions like "Do Raptors handle games well?"... because I care enough to know.

Sorry for talking your ear off, but I just feel like you needed to know where I was coming from here.

 

[MDE]

No problem at all. We were all once in your boat (and some are apparently still in that boat or missed it completely).

 

[Soulkeeper]

those western digital raptor drives are nice

 

[Overkast]

I talked to the MIS guy at work today and discussed RAID 0, 1, and 0+1 configurations.

He told me that what my company does is they configure drives in RAID 5 configurations for everything. It's a sweet idea, and I think I'm going to do it for my new machine now. Instead of having 2 Raptors and 1 Special Edition 80GB, I'm just gonna configure 3 Raptors in RAID 5.

Then again, is RAID 5 even possible in desktop PCs, or is it strictly a server capability?

 

[MDE]

You need a RAID card that can do RAID 5. I wouldn't even think of using software RAID.