32nm and 45nm Process Technology Highlights

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
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The Industry Moves to High-K/Metal Gates

At IEDM 2008, the focus of the process technology session was the industry-wide transition to 32nm. There were five different papers on 32nm processes and every one relied on high-k dielectrics and metal gates to increase control over the channel and decrease leakage.

http://www.realworldtech.com/p...icleID=RWT072109003617
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
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Nice! Been waiting for them to do an update to their 2007 IEDM overview for a while now.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
Cheers IDC, updating now :)

Stumbled across the GTX 300 thread when looking to see if people had posted about the tape out... and stumbled across your link to the 2007 version and thought it would be interesting to post the update since it came out on Monday...
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
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Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't know if anyone else caught the implications of the graph in Figure 17 but to me it very nicely highlighted the actual "node" groupings once you strip away the marketing bull that node labels are used for.

Here's my interpretation of what that graph is really showing us: http://i272.photobucket.com/al...o_bucket/iedm08-17.png

I need to wait about 2-3 more years before I can argue for or against your statement.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
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91
Originally posted by: TuxDave
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't know if anyone else caught the implications of the graph in Figure 17 but to me it very nicely highlighted the actual "node" groupings once you strip away the marketing bull that node labels are used for.

Here's my interpretation of what that graph is really showing us: http://i272.photobucket.com/al...o_bucket/iedm08-17.png

I need to wait about 2-3 more years before I can argue for or against your statement.

What's to argue against?

Pick any two companies in this table and compare their column data for any given "process node" versus the other company's same process node versus the label itself.

Contacted gate pitch is there, so is min Lg. The process node label just tells you the specs for the xtors and BEOL for the IC is different from those xtors and BEOL for IC's fabbed under a different node label at the same company, its even worse of a label when it comes to conveying information as to how to compare the specs of the xtors and beol when comparing IC's between companies.

Unless someone tells you explicitly, you have absolutely no idea what the Lg min, min contacted gate pitch, min metal pitch, Ion, Ioff, Iddq, sram density, and every other metric of relevance there is for an integrated circuit built on Intel's 45nm node versus an integrated circuit built on AMD's 45nm node...and there is a reason this is true. Same thing when it comes to comparing a Toyota Camry to a Honda Accord...both are mid-sized 4-door sedans (e.g. 45nm node label) but beyond that classification you don't know anything about hp, torque, mpg, cabin room, airbag config, trunk space, etc based on the labels (camry and accord) or the product class (4-door mid-size sedan) given to both vehicles.

It gets even more crazy if you start comparing a 2008 Camry to a 2009 Accord...but no more so than trying to divine anything meaningful from a label comparison of a 65nm Phenom versus a 45nm Yorkfield.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: TuxDave
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't know if anyone else caught the implications of the graph in Figure 17 but to me it very nicely highlighted the actual "node" groupings once you strip away the marketing bull that node labels are used for.

Here's my interpretation of what that graph is really showing us: http://i272.photobucket.com/al...o_bucket/iedm08-17.png

I need to wait about 2-3 more years before I can argue for or against your statement.

What's to argue against?

Pick any two companies in this table and compare their column data for any given "process node" versus the other company's same process node versus the label itself.

Contacted gate pitch is there, so is min Lg. The process node label just tells you the specs for the xtors and BEOL for the IC is different from those xtors and BEOL for IC's fabbed under a different node label at the same company, its even worse of a label when it comes to conveying information as to how to compare the specs of the xtors and beol when comparing IC's between companies.

Unless someone tells you explicitly, you have absolutely no idea what the Lg min, min contacted gate pitch, min metal pitch, Ion, Ioff, Iddq, sram density, and every other metric of relevance there is for an integrated circuit built on Intel's 45nm node versus an integrated circuit built on AMD's 45nm node...and there is a reason this is true. Same thing when it comes to comparing a Toyota Camry to a Honda Accord...both are mid-sized 4-door sedans (e.g. 45nm node label) but beyond that classification you don't know anything about hp, torque, mpg, cabin room, airbag config, trunk space, etc based on the labels (camry and accord) or the product class (4-door mid-size sedan) given to both vehicles.

It gets even more crazy if you start comparing a 2008 Camry to a 2009 Accord...but no more so than trying to divine anything meaningful from a label comparison of a 65nm Phenom versus a 45nm Yorkfield.

I guess you don't remember our previous argument where we disputed if there was any physical meaning behind the process nodes. In that argument I agreed that there is very little information being transferred in these "node labels" but simply from my own experience, there is a 1:1 match between a drawn physical feature and the process node.
 

deputc26

Senior member
Nov 7, 2008
548
1
76
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't know if anyone else caught the implications of the graph in Figure 17 but to me it very nicely highlighted the actual "node" groupings once you strip away the marketing bull that node labels are used for.

Here's my interpretation of what that graph is really showing us: http://i272.photobucket.com/al...o_bucket/iedm08-17.png

Very interesting, I find it odd that IBM's 32nm Bulk process falls in your 45nm label and IBM's 45nm SOI process falls in your 32nm classification. It's also interesting that Intel's 32nm node is nearly identical to IBM's 32nm SOI node. Is it safe to assume that AMD/GloFlo will mirror IBM on this chart?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: deputc26
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't know if anyone else caught the implications of the graph in Figure 17 but to me it very nicely highlighted the actual "node" groupings once you strip away the marketing bull that node labels are used for.

Here's my interpretation of what that graph is really showing us: http://i272.photobucket.com/al...o_bucket/iedm08-17.png

Very interesting, I find it odd that IBM's 32nm Bulk process falls in your 45nm label and IBM's 45nm SOI process falls in your 32nm classification. It's also interesting that Intel's 32nm node is nearly identical to IBM's 32nm SOI node. Is it safe to assume that AMD/GloFlo will mirror IBM on this chart?

Yeah you got to look at fig 18 to understand the disparity between IBM's 45nm and 32nm SOI - one is optimized for performance at the expense of areal scaling (hint: 45nm is BIG) while the other is expected to maintain performance while shrinking the physical size of the circuits.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't know if anyone else caught the implications of the graph in Figure 17 but to me it very nicely highlighted the actual "node" groupings once you strip away the marketing bull that node labels are used for.

Here's my interpretation of what that graph is really showing us: http://i272.photobucket.com/al...o_bucket/iedm08-17.png

Except you ignore the graph lower on the page that more accurately depicts how node size is determined. The first graph deals with performance (I think) and the 2nd graph with size.
You seem to have a better grasp of what this article is saying than I do though.

And basically, Intel's 65nm performs as well as nearly all the 45nm nodes (except IBM's experimental), their 45nm node outperforms TSMC 32nm (which is being abandoned for the same performance but slightly smaller 28nm node) and IBM's 32nm bulk, but by 32nm SOI, IBM (and thus likely AMD) will have caught up to Intel's process tech.

Pretty disappointing, if my interpretation is correct, that IBM/AMD are 1 generation behind Intel, even when on the same process level, so the majority of the time they were two generations behind.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: Fox5
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't know if anyone else caught the implications of the graph in Figure 17 but to me it very nicely highlighted the actual "node" groupings once you strip away the marketing bull that node labels are used for.

Here's my interpretation of what that graph is really showing us: http://i272.photobucket.com/al...o_bucket/iedm08-17.png

Except you ignore the graph lower on the page that more accurately depicts how node size is determined. The first graph deals with performance (I think) and the 2nd graph with size.
You seem to have a better grasp of what this article is saying than I do though.

And basically, Intel's 65nm performs as well as nearly all the 45nm nodes (except IBM's experimental), their 45nm node outperforms TSMC 32nm (which is being abandoned for the same performance but slightly smaller 28nm node) and IBM's 32nm bulk, but by 32nm SOI, IBM (and thus likely AMD) will have caught up to Intel's process tech.

Pretty disappointing, if my interpretation is correct, that IBM/AMD are 1 generation behind Intel, even when on the same process level, so the majority of the time they were two generations behind.

I'm not ignoring it, Figure 18 is your areal scaling entitlement...this goes to determine cost-structure (that is cost of manufacturing, not retail cost to the consumer) at the IDM's side of the equation to first order.

Fig 17 is your performance entitlement, which goes to determine the performance structure at the consumer's side of the equation to first order.

I'm just pointing out the obvious here in that anyone producing IC's which are competing in the marketplace on the performance characteristics of the IC is really creating their nodes with Fig 17 in mind. Your AMD vs. Intel situation.

Whereas anyone producing IC's which are competing in the marketplace based on the commodity aspects of the product (ram, flash, mobile phone chips, anything low-power arm-based these days) is going to be concerned with maximizing the cost-scaling of their node's entitlement.

At Texas Instruments we actually developed three "sub-nodes" for every major node label. For example at 65nm we had a low-power mobile node which we used for producing cellphone chips and the like. Performance was a secondary concern here, cost was primary, so we aggressively pursued the areal scaling factor at the expense of not improving performance over the preceding 90nm node.

In contrast to this we had a high-performance sub-node which was developed solely to produce SUN's microprocessors on. Cost was a secondary concern here, performance being the primary metric of success. Sram cellsize was nearly 70% larger for this same "65nm" node process flow, the difference being the larger sram could actually operate at GHz speeds whereas the headline grabbing super small sram cell that was touted in the media wasn't really designed to operate any faster than about 400MHz.

(our third flow was kind of a middle of the road flow for highspeed DSP's that still needed to operate with sub-25W TDPs)

My point in highlighting the groupings as shown in Fig 17 is that all these folks are attempting to create the perception that their "node labels" as attached to their products somehow makes them comparable in performance in some manner and that it is merely the timeline gap that exists between the release of the nodes that differentiates these company's process technologies.

When GF'ies talks about "closing the gap" to Intel and they only refer to the timeline gap it hardly answers the question we really want to have answered, which is will the chips made with the node be performance competitive assuming the architecture differences were negated? Or are they going to close the gap simply by releasing an even weaker performing process technology and just slap a new node label on it?
 

deputc26

Senior member
Nov 7, 2008
548
1
76
". Intel also reported the smallest contacted gate pitch to date, 112.5nm, ahead of competing 32nm processes and TSMC?s 28nm process." I really wish these companies wouldn't cheat on node labels, clearly TSMC's "28nm" process should be called a 32nm process, though I suppose SRAM cell size falls into the former category...
Also given Intel's 32nm contacted gate pitch of 112.5nm and IBM's 32nm contacted gate pitch of 126nm. Is it safe to assume that even on the same advertised node Intel will have a 126^2/112.5^2 = 25% advantage in areal density over IBM/AMD. I understand it's not that simple but I also believe contacted gate pitch is the best indication of areal density. Also 126nm was for IBM's bulk process, for their SOI process contacted gate pitch is 130nm widening the theoretical gap to 33.5%.

edit: Added a missing "of"
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
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Originally posted by: deputc26
". Intel also reported the smallest contacted gate pitch to date, 112.5nm, ahead of competing 32nm processes and TSMC?s 28nm process." I really wish these companies wouldn't cheat on node labels, clearly TSMC's "28nm" process should be called a 32nm process, though I suppose SRAM cell size falls into the former category...
Also given Intel's 32nm contacted gate pitch of 112.5nm and IBM's 32nm contacted gate pitch of 126nm. Is it safe to assume that even on the same advertised node Intel will have a 126^2/112.5^2 = 25% advantage in areal density over IBM/AMD. I understand it's not that simple but I also believe contacted gate pitch is the best indication areal density. Also 126nm was for IBM's bulk process, for their SOI process contacted gate pitch is 130nm widening the theoretical gap to 33.5%.

It's not really cheating, there is no legal or technical definition of the term "node". The fact that anyone can call any node they want as anything they want is entirely true.

But it isn't so different in other industries. Go to home depot and buy a 2x4 wood board, it won't measure out to be 2inches by 4inches even though it is labeled as being a 2"x4" board on the sticker that hangs in front of the wood pile.

Likewise on the auto industry. You don't have to wait until 2010 to buy the new 2010 Toyota Camry. And come 2011 you will still be able to buy brand new 2010 Toyota Camry. And just because one car manufacturer calls their car a 2010 model doesn't mean it compares in any way, shape or form with another car manufacturer's 2010 model.

But that isn't to say that these process technology guys aren't abusing ever-so-slightly the node labels given that they clearly understand the market connotations of the nodes themselves being late to market relative to their competition.

As for the specifics of the numbers, the math you are looking into regarding areal densities and so on based on contacted pitches and sram...it is extremely difficult to reduce the metrics of performance for a transistor down to simple enough terms with which you could then make meaningful comparisons.

Smaller sram doesn't mean much if it also can't be clocked as high as needed or if it is so small that it actually is on the verge of being unmanufacturable from a process-control standpoint and as such the yields end up being abysmal.

There are tradeoffs that go into every single metric of success for an IC, from design thru process tech. Which is in large part the reason why no two companies have identical specs for their transistors at the same node regardless the timeline delta between the release of those nodes.

For 22nm for example the Ivy Bridge and Haswell design teams are making requests to the Intel 22nm development team to deliver certain performance specs that will enable them to design features into their products that the AMD designers working on 22nm BD shrink (whatever it is called internally) simply don't need or require the GF 22nm development engineers to develop and deliver.

That doesn't mean GF's 22nm is less than Intel's, it just means it will be optimized with a set of different constraints in place versus the constraints in place around the optimization of Intel's 22nm process tech.

At the end of the day what matters to us, and to the chip makers too, is that when we go to newegg to buy a cpu come Dec 2011 that both Intel and AMD have 22nm cpu's available and shipping and that each performance class has a competitor.

We don't want to see 22nm Ivy Bridge owning the high-end performance market for a year before AMD releases their 22nm competitor, and we don't want to see GF's release 22nm node at the same time as Intel only to find out that the resultant products are so slow that they only compete with the mid to low-end range of Intel's offerings at the time.

The areal density advantages really only matter in those cases where "all else is equal"...as then areal advantage translates into cost advantage (smaller die, higher yield, lower cost) or can be leveraged into a performance advantage (same size die, same size yield, more sram cache, higher performance).

But if you have an areal advantage that comes only with a distinct performance disadvantage (low clockspeeds) or a distinct manufacturing disadvantage (high level of litho reworks, increases cost - or higher level of parametric yield loss due to process variability) then one would hope you did that on purpose because you intend to fabricate IC's that are going to compete in a marketspace where high performance is not a gross-margins enabler (such as the mobile phone market).
 

deputc26

Senior member
Nov 7, 2008
548
1
76
I know it's not officially cheating but most consumers that see 28nm will assume that the 28nm product will be "better" than the 32nm product all other things being equal (This is what I thought until I read your discussion with taltimir) even though TSMC isn't really competing directly with Intel (until Larabee) this muddies the waters and confuses the consumer. The 2x4 being a 1/2" shy on both dimensions has been an industry standard for a long time (though you can buy them "rough"), this is like CanFor "2x4s" being sized differently than Falcon Lumber "2x4s". I'm sure there are many other industries that use similar practices and to an industry insider such as yourself I'm sure the discrepancies are just a given, but the average consumer will wind up making purchase decisions based on faulty assumptions due to the less-than-consistant nomenclature.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Oh I am absolutely with you on the marketing abuse aspects of node labels, precisely as you laid it out.

And its not just the consumers who get duped into a value perception by the process node labels, so to are the shareholders and analysts who are grappling with placing some kind of tangible value on the output of the process technology's team with respect to the budget they've commanded for the prior 4yrs.