3 5-Star hotels, Westerners taken hostage, 172 dead in India

[flyboy84]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: jai6638

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: cirrrocco

Originally posted by: freegeeks
Their elite commando units look like regular infantry units.

I'm sure that these units are doing everything to get the situation under control but they just look totally unprepared.

did you want them to look like overdressed US teams. They carried the essentials, NVG, Rifle, backup pistol, Grenades and freq hopping comm equipment.What else is needed????

I'm pretty sure those overdressed US teams you are talking about would not have needed 3 days to neutralize a bunch of terrorists

The US force, being the "superior military force" that it is, couldn't even find one man, Bin Laden! Most of his accomplices haven't been found either so stop pointing fingers.

There is no comparison with the search for Bin Laden and the suppression of these attacks. The lack of highly trained special forces/swat is readily apparent. Had something like this gone on for 3+ days in the US the government would be strung up by its collective testicles, especially considering how much we spend on police/defense.

I have to agree with you on this. My heart goes out to the victims (of all nationalities) of this brutal massacre. While I can imagine the difficulty in searching a tremendous hotel room by room for a small number of terrorist "pigs" as they were called earlier, finding a single man in over a huge, remote, desolate geographic area is a whole other story.

That being said, we should stop these recriminations and statements of "if this happened in America it wouldn't have taken 3 days to stop them." While I do agree that US Special Forces are among the finest in the world, it is always easier to be an armchair quarterback. This would have been a challenging situation for any force.

What we need now is to join in solidarity with the free democracies of the world to fight these terrorist enemies of civilization.

 

[Sam25]

Being an Indian myself I'm shocked and stunned at the events in Mumbai. The dastardly act carried out by the terrorists is unimaginable. Having stayed at Mumbai before it was shocking to see the carnage and death tolls rise, not to mention the heritage buildings being damaged to bits. I'm very proud of the Indian commandos who did their best in the said circumstances.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: jai6638

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: cirrrocco

Originally posted by: freegeeks
Their elite commando units look like regular infantry units.

I'm sure that these units are doing everything to get the situation under control but they just look totally unprepared.

did you want them to look like overdressed US teams. They carried the essentials, NVG, Rifle, backup pistol, Grenades and freq hopping comm equipment.What else is needed????

I'm pretty sure those overdressed US teams you are talking about would not have needed 3 days to neutralize a bunch of terrorists

The US force, being the "superior military force" that it is, couldn't even find one man, Bin Laden! Most of his accomplices haven't been found either so stop pointing fingers.

Finding a guy in remote regions who lives in caves and a SWAT team operation. yeah, same thing :roll:

 

[Farang]

U.S. forces may have taken even longer to clear the buildings. It isn't just a simple matter of going in and killing people, there are hostages as well and possibly booby traps in a giant hotel.

 

[cirrrocco]

I am sure the waco standoff got resolved in 60 hours.

anyway I feel cheap trying to keep doing this. As mentioned above by flyboy, the indian security apparatus needs a huge revamp. The problem is that even after three deadliest attacks in indian being in mumbai, they still dont have a proper game plan on how to approach situations like this.

I also agree with freegeeks that the indian police need better equipement, what I dont agree is his contention that NSG needs more equipment.

 

[cirrrocco]

Very cool video by one of the US citizens

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/vid...ris.ehrlich.mumbai.cnn

 

[Ozoned]

Me wonders if India has the ability to mine data from their stock market? To look at a possible financial motive to this attack. The whole thing just doesn't smell right.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: cirrrocco
Very cool video by one of the US citizens

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/vid...ris.ehrlich.mumbai.cnn

Awesome vid.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: BuckNaked


There is another still photo showing one of the terrorists moving through an outdoor area, finger indexed along side the receiver of the AK... a small detail but it shows an advanced level of training, more so than one would expect...

http://cache.boston.com/univer...11_28/m05_17178177.jpg

He was the only one to survive.

 

[BuckNaked]

As for the lack of proper equipment on behalf of the CT forces...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes...ticleshow/3776792.cms

MUMBAI: A multi-agency operation may have managed to make Mumbai terror-free but the last few days have exposed the incapability of Mumbai Police to tackle terrorism.

Experts feel it would be unfair to blame that entirely on the cop on the street, but we should look at what the government has done to equip the force to take on terrorists.

The government has promised to make Mumbai a safer place every time the city has faced terror. Senior ministers have repeatedly stressed that the force would be modernised and equipped with machines that would allow it to return terrorists' firepower. But most of those promises have remained on paper, even a cursory glance at the last few years' budgetary provisions reveal.

Records show that the government has spent Rs 940 crore on "modernisation'' in the last eight years. But most of the money has been used for construction of new police stations, administrative buildings and buying luxury sedans for senior IPS officers. "We had adequate funds but never upgraded our firepower to tackle terror attacks. That was why we were helpless when terrorists attacked Mumbai on Wednesday,'' a senior IPS officer said, adding that 60% of the Rs 940 crore was spent on buildings and cars and very little on improving mobility or upgrading weapons and ammunition.

Officials say the home department's focus is on procuring luxury vehicles and accessories for top officers. Maharashtra has 22 additional DGPs and four DGPs. Every one has a luxury sedan. IGPs and SPs too have modern cars at their disposal and at least 20 such cars are at the disposal of the deputy CM himself. Some of them are used by him, the remaining are used by his staff. "Chinese-made beacons worth about Rs 30,000 had been fitted on many of these vehicles but could not be replaced after they stopped working as there was no warranty,'' an official added.

Officials expected the home department to draft a plan to buy bullet-proof cars for officers in sensitive posts, replace age-old weapons and procure more bullet-proof jackets for personnel. But none of that has happened. "We have no ammunition for training State Reserve Police Force officials and so most SRPF constables have absolutely no experience of using rifles. They use it when they are summoned to tackle a mob or to control riots,'' the IPS officer said.

A programme was drafted for getting AK-47s and replacing obsolete weapons two years ago but it was not followed up seriously. Maharashtra, as a result, is the only state in India where most cops embark on sensitive operations with old weapons.
Ditto for bullet-proof jackets; cops here would like to sample the scientifically designed Koeffler jackets that can protect the body from any type of bullet and are used by the NSG and other commando forces the world over. But it is another article on a long wish-list.

I am also looking for a good article they had on the delay in getting NSG forces to Mumbai....

Edit: Here it is...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes....cms?TOI_mostcommented

Why did NSG take 9 hrs to get there?
30 Nov 2008, 0508 hrs IST, TNN

NEW DELHI: The terrorists strike Mumbai at 9.30pm. Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh is in Kerala. He is briefed about the attack on the city?s
prime locations. By the time Deshmukh grasps the enormity of the situation, 90 minutes have gone by.

He rings Union home minister Shivraj Patil at 11pm and asks for NSG commandos. "How many men?" Patil asks. "200," says the CM. Patil calls NSG chief J K Dutt and tells him to send 200 battle-ready commandos to Mumbai.

Most of the NSG men have to be roused from sleep. They don their uniforms, strap on safety gear, collect ammo and firearms. It is discovered that the only plane that can take 200 men, the IL 76, is not in Delhi but Chandigarh. Precious minutes are ticking by.

The IL 76 pilot is woken, the plane refuelled. It reaches Delhi at 2am. By the time the commandos get in and the plane takes off, four-and-a-half hours have elapsed. Experts say that unless a response is mounted within 30 minutes of an attack, the enemy can assume key defensive positions.

It takes the aircraft almost three hours to land at Mumbai airport. Unlike the Boeing and Airbus, IL 76 is a slow plane. By the time the NSG commandos board the waiting buses it is 5.25am.

The buses take another 40 minutes to reach the designated place in south Mumbai where the commandos are briefed, divided into different groups and sent out on their mission.

By the time they start their operation, it is 7am ? in other words, nine-and-a-half hours after the terror strike.

Many lives might have been saved had this delay not happened. The obvious question is why is the NSG stationed only in Delhi. When Indian cities are vulnerable to terror attacks, why is there no commando force like the NSG, or its units, in every city?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes...rticleshow/3776975.cms

Ex-soldier trained terrorists, says Kasab
1 Dec 2008, 0226 hrs IST, S Ahmed Ali, TNN

MUMBAI: "There were 24 of us who took one-year training in camps organised by Laskar-e-Taiba (LeT) at Mansera and Muzzarafabad in Punjab province of Pakistan. Ten of us were later handpicked for the Mumbai operation,'' said Ajmal Amir Kasab during interrogations.

According to sources, Kasab, 21, the only terrorist arrested by the Mumbai police, told his interrogators that Abdul Rahman, an ex-soldier popularly called Chacha, had given them training.

The sources said Kasab explained that the training was divided into seven phases. "He said the first phase was of ?very hard physical training? of three months which included running 10 to 15 km. The next three months were for marine training like swimming, surfing, diving and boating in high seas. The rest included arms and ammunition training,'' said a source.

After the training was over, they were sent to Mumbai for a "short internship'', Kasab is believed to have told the cops. This was the period when the accused did the reccee of the city and even went to the five star hotels (Taj and Oberoi), the sources said.
Sources said the Mumbai operation plot was planned in Karachi some six months ago. Joint commissioner of police (crime) Rakesh Maria said,"We are closely working with the all the central agencies who have earlier handled such situations.''

In a fresh development in the investigations, the Mumbai police called up their Gujarat counterparts to enquire about whether the terrorists used Amar Narayan, the skipper of the fishing trawler used by them, as a mole. Narayan was detained by Pakistan for three months for illegally entering into the Pak waters.

Police are now taking the help of top technical experts to break into the details of the GPS system and the satellite phone which they recovered from a terrorist at the Taj hotel. This GPS helped them to navigate the sea route from Karachi to Mumbai via Porbander, cops said.

The police have launched a manhunt for the few locals who have given the terrorists logistic support in the operation.

'No Regrets..."

http://broadband.indiatimes.co...howvideo/3776751.cms

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: BuckNaked
As for the lack of proper equipment on behalf of the CT forces...

....

This is why we should not blame the terrorists this time. The fundamental problem is the way the Indian political system is structured. Most of the power is concentrated in the hands of state and central level politicians. These guys get elected with the rural vote mainly but have charge of the urban areas. City municipal governments are toothless bodies set up mainly to siphon off money from resources allocated for the city's services. That is why there are pot-holed streets in front of multi-million dollar buildings that would put many structures in the West to shame. Same goes for policing which, as I said earlier, is basically a shake-down operation that efficiently funnels bribes upwards that are collected from breaking laws that are deliberately written such that you cannot get anything done if you follow them. A city like Mumbai is begging for a state-level government so that it can solve the problems only it knows how and not some minister sitting in Delhi or in the Chief Minister's chair.

Indians cities run on a wing and a prayer and the last remaining shred of decency in the common man. Unfortunately, they don't have the power of political numbers to bring about the required change. And no one is willing to bell the political restructuring cat such that urban areas are brought to political par with rural areas. So the more things change, the more they will remain the same. And let us wait in dread for the next attack when (not if) it comes.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: tvarad

Originally posted by: BuckNaked
As for the lack of proper equipment on behalf of the CT forces...

....

This is why we should not blame the terrorists this time.

Sorry, I couldn't read anything after that. Are you one of those freaks that thinks Counterstrike should be blamed for school shootings? Or if and when you have kids you force powerful stimulants down their throat because they got a bad grade?

Blame ends with the people who plan/fund/commit the act.

 

[kalster]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122809281744967855.html

This the best article I have read so far covering this whole mayhem. I cant get over the disturbing images that have been shown on the TV in the past few days.

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: tvarad

Originally posted by: BuckNaked
As for the lack of proper equipment on behalf of the CT forces...

....

This is why we should not blame the terrorists this time.

Sorry, I couldn't read anything after that. Are you one of those freaks that thinks Counterstrike should be blamed for school shootings? Or if and when you have kids you force powerful stimulants down their throat because they got a bad grade?

Blame ends with the people who plan/fund/commit the act.

+1 (for as many times as it takes!)

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: tvarad
This is why we should not blame the terrorists this time.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: tvarad

Originally posted by: BuckNaked
As for the lack of proper equipment on behalf of the CT forces...

....

This is why we should not blame the terrorists this time. The fundamental problem is the way the Indian political system is structured. Most of the power is concentrated in the hands of state and central level politicians. These guys get elected with the rural vote mainly but have charge of the urban areas. City municipal governments are toothless bodies set up mainly to siphon off money from resources allocated for the city's services. That is why there are pot-holed streets in front of multi-million dollar buildings that would put many structures in the West to shame. Same goes for policing which, as I said earlier, is basically a shake-down operation that efficiently funnels bribes upwards that are collected from breaking laws that are deliberately written such that you cannot get anything done if you follow them. A city like Mumbai is begging for a state-level government so that it can solve the problems only it knows how and not some minister sitting in Delhi or in the Chief Minister's chair.

Indians cities run on a wing and a prayer and the last remaining shred of decency in the common man. Unfortunately, they don't have the power of political numbers to bring about the required change. And no one is willing to bell the political restructuring cat such that urban areas are brought to political par with rural areas. So the more things change, the more they will remain the same. And let us wait in dread for the next attack when (not if) it comes.

Not a single thing you just said excuses these kind of terrorist attacks. India may have problems, as do most countries, but killing random people is NOT a natural outcome of any "fundamental problems". Nobody made the terrorists kill people, even if they had reason to be upset, they alone made the decision to deal with their problems by becoming terrorists. A reasonable person would deal with societal issues in any number of other ways, the problem here isn't the society the terrorists live in, it's how they decided to react to it.

That said, I think your "reasons" amount to nothing more than terrorist propaganda. India certainly has some political issues, but the biggest driver of terrorism seems to be religious division, a topic which I can't help but notice you totally ignored...probably because fighting against a corrupt government sounds more noble than killing a bunch of random people for cultural reasons.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: tvarad
This is why we should not blame the terrorists this time.

 

[Whitecloak]

Muslim council refuses to bury terrorists killed in encounter

Mumbai (PTI): In a strong condemnation of the terror attack on the city, the Muslim Council has decided not to permit the burial of the bodies of the nine terrorists who were gunned down by the NSG commandos.

The council is likely to send out a message to all the cemeteries in India that none of the bodies should be buried on Indian soil.

In 2003, a Pakistani national was killed in an encounter and was buried in a cemetery in Mumbai. This time, however, some of the Muslim bodies have decided not to allow the burial of the terrorists considering the gravity of the terror attack.

Congress MLA Bhai Jagtap said that some Muslim organisations had approached him demanding that the terrorists should not be buried in any cemetery in India.

"I am trying to get in touch with senior government and police officials and will forward the message to them," Jagtap said.

The council authorities have handed over a letter to the Marine Letters cemetry, where the bodies were supposed to have been buried.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Whitecloak
Muslim council refuses to bury terrorists killed in encounter

Mumbai (PTI): In a strong condemnation of the terror attack on the city, the Muslim Council has decided not to permit the burial of the bodies of the nine terrorists who were gunned down by the NSG commandos.

The council is likely to send out a message to all the cemeteries in India that none of the bodies should be buried on Indian soil.

In 2003, a Pakistani national was killed in an encounter and was buried in a cemetery in Mumbai. This time, however, some of the Muslim bodies have decided not to allow the burial of the terrorists considering the gravity of the terror attack.

Congress MLA Bhai Jagtap said that some Muslim organisations had approached him demanding that the terrorists should not be buried in any cemetery in India.

"I am trying to get in touch with senior government and police officials and will forward the message to them," Jagtap said.

The council authorities have handed over a letter to the Marine Letters cemetry, where the bodies were supposed to have been buried.

You know what, feed those bodies to pigs. Find a pig pen and throw them in all mashed up with some veggies.

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: tvarad
This is why we should not blame the terrorists this time.

The point I was trying to make is that these attacks were very preventable and the effects minimized when they happened if the govt. at both the state and central level had taken the lessons of 9/11, London and Madrid bombings as well as the myriad terror attacks on India itself. This is a colossal failure of both intelligence gathering and rapid response. It would be like the U.S. govt. caught off-guard if a 9/11 happened again.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Arun Jaitley, a senior member of India?s opposition party known as the Bhaartiya Janata Party or BJP, called on India to follow the model of the United States after September 11, 2001.

Originally posted by: ARUN JAITLEY We must follow the example of what United States did after 9/11. We are more vulnerable them and we must be a tough state and not a soft state. Out intelligence network, our security response, our legal framework all need an overhaul and all need a strengthening. When all of them see the political establishment is weak on terrorism, each one of them collapses. That?s where the basic change is required.

I wonder who they'll invade first.

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Not a single thing you just said excuses these kind of terrorist attacks.

Your missing my point. I am not condoning the attacks. I am saying that they were eminently preventable with better intelligence or their effects minimized through rapid response if the Indian Govt. had heeded the lessons of previous terror attacks and prepared for them. That is what the U.S., Britain, Spain have done after their experience with terrorism. Indians, especially those who live in cities, are livid at the government which is pretty much non-existent in their lives when it comes to delivering the services that their taxes pay for, foremost of which is providing security. The father of one of the commandos who was killed by the terrorists refused to meet with a chief minister, blaming them for his son's death. He even threatened to commit suicide if the minister entered the house. That's unheard of in India where deference to authority is ingrained and that's how pissed off everyone is.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: RESmonkey
^ Well, it would be minimized if people would just give up on their retarded religions.

don't blame religion for the actions of extremists.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
don't blame religion for the actions of extremists.

A chosen religion is a very prominent and defining facet of one's character; so, it absolutely must be considered and included in any analysis.

With so many variables at play, it really has nothing to do with "blame;" and everything to do with understanding one's enemies -- especially their motivations. After all, to truly end this global mess, we need to eliminate those specific motivations and the conditions in which they fester.