"2nd Most Dangerous City In America" Lays Off Half Of Police/Fire Forces

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Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
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Well the rich Republicans there can help by spending their money on private security.

If not otherwise they can leave.

As for the others that don't have money, well Detroit is looking quite good after bulldozing a majority of the city.



lolwut?!?! Rich Republicans in CAMDEN!?!?!

HAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

Dude... stop it!! I can't breathe.. HAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAA!@!
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
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Why should the (non-Camden) citizens of NJ pay for Camden's problems?

Who will then pay for those peoples' problems?
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It would be nice to see Camden's budget. I would like to know what percentage of their total budget this shortfall represents.

If it's not a lot, it's questionable why they (seemingly) start with police and firefighters.

Would like to know what else is being also.

Cutting firefighters because of financial concerns seems particularly questionable. Prop insurance rates are likely to increase thereby offsetting any supposed benefit.

Assuming there is no wasts to cut (haha), across the board cuts minimizing the impact to any one city service would seem more common sense. So, looks like a political publicity stunt to me.

Fern



They didn't start with Police and Firefighters - Camden has been in bad, bad shape for a long time.


24% budget cut: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/loca...ity_to_brace_for_a_24_percent_budget_cut.html



Closing the Libraries: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/all_three_camden_libraries_fac.html


http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20101203_Camden_City_Council_approves_massive_layoffs.html


{edit} - Here's a .pdf of a budget analysis from 2007: http://www.camconnect.org/datalogue/camconnect_camden_budget_june2007.pdf

Please note the aid they receive from the State far exceeds what Camden generates for itself. Some $102.756M versus $33.580M - so for every dollar Camden generates for itself, it receives 2 from the State.
 
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Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
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I lived nearby up until two years ago.

I know the demographic

It will follow Detroit.



Ah - Then you knew what you wrote when you posted it! :awe:

Priceless!


And I agree with your assessment - Camden, NJ has been among the worst cities in the country for quite a long time.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
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I don't see where a partisan link has been established - Sure, Christie is a Republican. But the state Assembly and State Senate are both Democratically controlled. Absolutely, he's throwing around the weight of his office to force hard choices, but in the end Christie can't impose his will without the Assembly and Senate signing off on it. Not to mention Christie's predecessors are/were Democrats, too.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
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Why should the (non-Camden) citizens of NJ pay for Camden's problems?

Who will then pay for those peoples' problems?
--------------

It would be nice to see Camden's budget. I would like to know what percentage of their total budget this shortfall represents.

If it's not a lot, it's questionable why they (seemingly) start with police and firefighters.

Would like to know what else is being also.

Cutting firefighters because of financial concerns seems particularly questionable. Prop insurance rates are likely to increase thereby offsetting any supposed benefit.

Assuming there is no wasts to cut (haha), across the board cuts minimizing the impact to any one city service would seem more common sense. So, looks like a political publicity stunt to me.

Fern

Why should any tax money go from any person to any other place, ever then?

As best as I can tell, $69 million represents 40% of their budget from 2010 (~$177 million). As a percentage of their already cut 2011 budget of $138 million, it's approximately 50% of the city's funding.

So, laying off about half the city's police and firefighters would be pretty much in line with an across the board cut.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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Why should any tax money go from any person to any other place, ever then?

As best as I can tell, $69 million represents 40% of their budget from 2010 (~$177 million). As a percentage of their already cut 2011 budget of $138 million, it's approximately 50% of the city's funding.

So, laying off about half the city's police and firefighters would be pretty much in line with an across the board cut.

The article says:

Camden City Council, as expected, voted Thursday to lay off almost 400 workers, half of them police officers and firefighters, to bridge a $26.5 million deficit.

I was figuring about 16% based on financials from old years.

The $69 million is in "transitional aid". Whatever the heck that means.
-----------

I'll offer a different view too. It may be their police force needs cut. The county next to mine is far larger, but we have twice the police/sherrif's force. Our police/sherrif's influence with the county commissioners has been a source of complaint for years; whatever budget increase they want, they get.

Our population is primarily well-off retirees, the county next door is far younger etc. Retirees are hardly the type to require extra policing, most are asleep by 7pm.

Besides, police don't stop crime, they come afterwards to 'clean up' etc. And if this goes through it will be an interesting social experiment and we'll see how it affects the crime rate.

Fern
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
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Fern - My view on the matter is that the easy stuff was cut from their budgets a long time ago. As far as their police: Canden NJ has long "enjoyed" the reputation of having the highest crime rates in the nation.

#2 most dangerous now, apparently http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_dangerous_cities

Wiki isn't the greatest source, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey

Although once a thriving center for manufacturing and industry, Camden is perhaps best known for its struggles with urban dysfunction. Three Camden mayors have been jailed for corruption, the most recent being Milton Milan in 2000. Since 2005 the school system and police department have been operated by the State of New Jersey; the takeover will expire in 2012. In 2009, Camden had the highest crime rate in the U.S. with 2,333 violent crimes per 100,000 people while the national average was 455 per 100,000. Camden public schools spend $17,000 per student per year yet only two thirds of the students graduate. Two out of every five residents are below the national poverty line.


There's more detailed Financial information above, though it's 3 years old.


My prediction is that if we thought the crime rate was bad now...
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Craig - Even Anarchist420 is capable of opening a new thread when he wants to post something not related to an existing thread.

I am sorry you have to have that explained to you.

It is 'related'. You are not an honest person, and so I'm ok if you think otherwise, rather than explaining it to you further. If someone else has a question, they can say so.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
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Craig - You want to complain about national issues and toss shit at the Republicans over whatever it is you're upset about today... Feel free to open a new thread.

If you have something meaningful to post about Camden NJ's budget crisis, then this is the place.

There is no clearer way to explain it.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
They didn't start with Police and Firefighters - Camden has been in bad, bad shape for a long time.


24% budget cut: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/loca...ity_to_brace_for_a_24_percent_budget_cut.html



Closing the Libraries: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/all_three_camden_libraries_fac.html


http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20101203_Camden_City_Council_approves_massive_layoffs.html


{edit} - Here's a .pdf of a budget analysis from 2007: http://www.camconnect.org/datalogue/camconnect_camden_budget_june2007.pdf

Please note the aid they receive from the State far exceeds what Camden generates for itself. Some $102.756M versus $33.580M - so for every dollar Camden generates for itself, it receives 2 from the State.

That's very interesting, thanks! One bizarre point is that a city that (in 2006, a pretty good year) generates $33,580,000 in total revenue also spends $110,340,000 in salaries and benefits. I'm unsure why the City Council even gets paid; a random selection from the nearest housing project could do as well for a quarter the cost!

Camden is a perfect example of what happens when the tick-to-dog ratio exceeds 1:1 - very bad for the dog! (One bright point for liberals - look at how many guns Camden is taking off the streets!) Still, I can't feel much sympathy for the unions, who demanded and received yearly raises including retroactive payments for the three years of negotiations. If you demand salaries that break your employer, expect to not have a job. Some other fun facts: Forty-seven fire department captains were paid more than $100,000, and the average fire department pay was almost $90,000 - and these don't include benefits.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,952
8,007
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Why does a local gov't have to rely on a state gov't for support?

Ownership.
It can't be by the people for the people. It has to be by the state for the state. There is a semblance of free individuality if they live within their means. That is why they rely on the higher ups.

The local gov't has its own budget. If it can't meet that budget, it needs to cut. Why does everyone have to keep getting bailed out for poor planning? Cutting the police force is one step. They also cut other jobs from what I understand. Was it in their budget to count on state aid?

Of course it was. For example, the state of California (and almost all the others) would not even function without the dole of the centralized gov. They would have bankrupted themselves LONG ago. They exist today on the Federal Gov's debt. This is intentional.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
NJ is, and has been for nearly all of living memory, a Democratic controlled state.

NJ is a STATE, and your talking points regarding Federal Taxation do not apply

NJ has a BALANCED BUDGET provision in the State Constitution: When there isn't enough money in State coffers, then budgets and support to local/county government has to be cut BY LAW

How many times do I have to repeat this before you f*cktards get it?

Question for you and some of the other posters: Why are you so completely Incapable of viewing these things outside the prism of your own twisted vision of Partisanship?

You need to realize you are talking to a brick wall.

shouting-at-brick-wall-pinktag.jpg
 

jrodson69

Member
Nov 26, 2009
69
0
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That's very interesting, thanks! One bizarre point is that a city that (in 2006, a pretty good year) generates $33,580,000 in total revenue also spends $110,340,000 in salaries and benefits. I'm unsure why the City Council even gets paid; a random selection from the nearest housing project could do as well for a quarter the cost!

That's truly mind-blowing. Only a city ran by liberals could be so far gone. Thanks for digging up the numbers, Camden is even more of a shit hole than I thought!
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
136
It's not small government, it's really big liberal city government making cuts to vital services instead of cutting bloated liberal city waste programs.

Have you ever been to Camden?

Its a fking bombed out shithole that makes Baghdad look like a vacation resort. The cops are even scared to go around the neighborhoods openly.

Why is it broke? Because you can't tax rubble.

Camden has a nice waterfront, which it didn't have the money to buy for itself, and I'd bet most of the revenues come from there. 1 block away is a crumbling hellscape of what resembles a once fine city. Picture Fallout 3.

The only other reason to ever go to Camden is to get shot or buy drugs.

The only people living there are those too poor to GTFO (ie blacks.)
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
I wonder what the Republican plan is to fix Camden now that NJ is a Republican state.
Perhaps another round of tax cuts will fix the problem? Cut off people's welfare, that will surely help them get jobs?
When I said that police and fire were bankrupting cities many refused to believe me.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
Christie cut off their finances-$69 million worth. Direct result is police layoffs. Neat political trick-the syncopants will blame the "liberal" city government, praise the so-called fiscally responsible governor and most voters outside of Camden won't give a sh*t because it saves them money and they would never go to Camden anyway.

Long term effect-Camden continues to decline, lose jobs, increased public costs for welfare, medicare, court system and prisons-but people won't see those effects until Christie is long gone on his presidential run.

A big part of the problem is national in scope, with our split between cities and suburbs. Cities-any city-is being strangled when the lion's share of its taxbase flees to the suburbs. An effect of the automobile culture we have never properly addressed.
Or perhaps automobile culture is properly addressing some of governance problems created by leeches in urban governments. Cities don't have a right to a tax base. They don't even have an a priori right to exist. They exist to serve the people, and if they don't then they ought to die.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
I wonder what the Republican plan is to fix Camden now that NJ is a Republican state.

Huh? Republican state? Are you high on something again? There hasn't been a republican senator from NJ since 1972. One republican governor doesn't make the state "republican", it's a solidly "blue" east coast state. Further, the state doesn't run the city, it's up to the city leadership to come up with a plan to save that city.

There is no republican plan to fix that city, since there probably is no fixing that city. Most of the intelligent people left the city long ago. Anyone who had options left the city long ago, what remains is the people who have no alternatives. They keep electing corrupt and stupid leaders. That city is doomed, it needs to be razed to start over.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
I wonder what the Republican plan is to fix Camden now that NJ is a Republican state.
Perhaps another round of tax cuts will fix the problem? Cut off people's welfare, that will surely help them get jobs?
When I said that police and fire were bankrupting cities many refused to believe me.

Yeah - Just like California is "Republican" because Swartezenegger has an (R) by his name right?

NJ is, and has been for nearly all of living memory, a Democratic controlled state.

NJ has a BALANCED BUDGET provision in the State Constitution: When there isn't enough money in State coffers, then budgets and support to local/county government has to be cut BY LAW

How many times do I have to repeat this before you 'tards get it?

Question for you and some of the other posters: Why are you so completely Incapable of viewing these things outside the prism of your own twisted vision of Partisanship?



The City of Camden has been democratically controlled for nearly all of living memory.
The City of Camden has also been a sh*t hole for nearly all of living memory.


Wiki isn't the greatest source, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey

Although once a thriving center for manufacturing and industry, Camden is perhaps best known for its struggles with urban dysfunction. Three Camden mayors have been jailed for corruption, the most recent being Milton Milan in 2000. Since 2005 the school system and police department have been operated by the State of New Jersey; the takeover will expire in 2012. In 2009, Camden had the highest crime rate in the U.S. with 2,333 violent crimes per 100,000 people while the national average was 455 per 100,000. Camden public schools spend $17,000 per student per year yet only two thirds of the students graduate. Two out of every five residents are below the national poverty line.


http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/

NJ Senate: Democratically controlled for decades
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/members/senchart.asp


NJ Assembly: Also Democratically Controlled for Decades
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/members/aseating.asp


Governor's Office: Chris Christie is a Republican, and started his term this year (2010)

43 Alfred E. Driscoll 1947–1954 - Republican Governor
44 Robert B. Meyner 1954–1962 - Democrat Governor
45 Richard J. Hughes 1962–1970 - Democrat Governor
46 William T. Cahill 1970–1974 - Republican Governor
47 Brendan T. Byrne 1974–1982 - Democrat Governor
48 Thomas H. Kean 1982–1990 - Republican Governor
49 James J. Florio 1990–1994 - Democrat Governor
50 Christine Todd Whitman1 1994–2001 - Republican Governor
51 Donald DiFrancesco2 2001–2002 - Republican Governor
John Farmer Jr. 2002 Republican - Acting Governor
John O. Bennett 2002 Republican - Acting Governor
Richard Codey 2002 - Democrat Acting Governor
52 James E. McGreevey3 2002–2004 - Democrat Governor
53 Richard Codey4 2004–2006 - Democrat Governor
54 Jon S. Corzine 2006-2010 - Democrat Governor
55 Christopher S. Christie 2010- Republican Governor



But thank you for amusing us with yet another attempt at Partisan blamesmanship. Must be convenient to walk around with a ready excuse for everything.


..and yes - I'm annoyed at having to quote, and re~quote information that's already been posted in this thread. Thanks for taking the time to read before replying.
 
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