27 EU Leaders Agree on Theresa May's Brexit Withdrawal Deal

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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,973
7,891
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Robin Williams once described Parliament as Congress but with a two drink minimum.

Well they do have their own (tax-payer-subsidized) bar.

They need to swallow their pride and do a second referendum. It's humiliating, but destroying your country is not an option.

It's not that it's humiliating, it's that it will enrage a significant proportion of the population/electorate. They might not riot, but God knows who they might start voting for.

This is such a fiasco. And not the least of it is, even if by some miracle the UK reverses Brexit without significant civil unrest or permanent damage to democracy, we will still be in an EU that has no idea how to deal with Poland and Hungary abandoning the rule of law, and an Italy that is openly defying EU rules. While even France and Germany vote for fascists in significant numbers.

We are fighting to stay in the frying pan and avoid toppling into the fire.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
I am not sufficiently informed to have a basic understanding of what happened besides May being crushed. Yes I know what Brexit is and the complications (on a good day) of implementing it, but does this mean it's dead? Is May out? Does Brexit go on no matter what or will there be another referendum? What does it all mean for moving forward?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
I am not sufficiently informed to have a basic understanding of what happened besides May being crushed. Yes I know what Brexit is and the complications (on a good day) of implementing it, but does this mean it's dead? Is May out? Does Brexit go on no matter what or will there be another referendum? What does it all mean for moving forward?

My understanding is that:

May will face another vote of confidence.

Brexit is not "dead".

May is opposed to another referendum. I doubt whether there is enough support for another referendum even if she is defeated.

At this point could be a "hard" Brexit or, as remote as it seems, another deal with the other EU members.

I think the real deadline for Brexit is in 2020. If so there's still a long way to go before it's resoved.

Fern
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
My understanding, in no way fixed in cement, that Brexit is is a Russian Psyoperation to destabilize NATO and destroy European unity.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
136
Knowing something is a bad idea and will cause enormous suffering but doggedly determining to do it anyway because of a nonbinding referendum is the most British thing ever.
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,581
472
126
My understanding, in no way fixed in cement, that Brexit is is a Russian Psyoperation to destabilize NATO and destroy European unity.

Brexit is still happening but PM May's lack of a deal means that the process for the U.K. will have uncertainties which their Market likely will not like and it also makes her more vulnerable.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,284
5,055
136
All because the Brits are too stubborn to say sorry we messed up can we start over.
They voted on it. It was just about as democratic as these things get. Clusterfuck or not, it's what the people decided.
Why bother having a democracy if they're going to keep having votes till they they get the one they want? At that point, pull the plug, put the queen in charge and let her decide what the right move is.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
136
They voted on it. It was just about as democratic as these things get. Clusterfuck or not, it's what the people decided.
Why bother having a democracy if they're going to keep having votes till they they get the one they want? At that point, pull the plug, put the queen in charge and let her decide what the right move is.

There’s decent evidence that the people have decided they made a mistake.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/06/bri...stay-in-eu-want-second-referendum---poll.html

I mean if people voted for something, found out it was a bad idea, and still had time to fix their mistake it would be insane to decide not to do that, right?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
My understanding, in no way fixed in cement, that Brexit is is a Russian Psyoperation to destabilize NATO and destroy European unity.

Like Trumpism, only different. Destabilizing the democracies of the West to cut 'em down to size.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,284
5,055
136
There’s decent evidence that the people have decided they made a mistake.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/06/bri...stay-in-eu-want-second-referendum---poll.html

I mean if people voted for something, found out it was a bad idea, and still had time to fix their mistake it would be insane to decide not to do that, right?
I guess so.
I don't know enough about brexit to have a valid opinion. But the UK has historically done pretty well for itself. They also kept the door open just a crack by never adopting the Euro.

This kind of mess is also why I'm not a fan of direct democracy. It's based on the assumption that ten thousand stupid people will make better decisions than one stupid person.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
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I guess so.
I don't know enough about brexit to have a valid opinion. But the UK has historically done pretty well for itself. They also kept the door open just a crack by never adopting the Euro.

This kind of mess is also why I'm not a fan of direct democracy. It's based on the assumption that ten thousand stupid people will make better decisions than one stupid person.

I’ve generally viewed it as a competition between the corrupt few and the retarded many.

Never adopting the Euro was just a smart economic move regardless of whether or not they stay in the EU. Regardless, the UK has an opportunity to reverse a big mistake and it seems likely the average person wants to. There’s no reason to shoot your dick off just to express fealty to a dumb decision you made a few years back.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
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Knowing something is a bad idea and will cause enormous suffering but doggedly determining to do it anyway because of a nonbinding referendum is the most British thing ever.
At some point, the British people need to wake up to how much this is costing them. The leave vote by itself cost them 30% of the pound's value. The actual Brexit means billions lost in foreign investment and billions more in new taxes.
IMO this vote reflected that. The MPs don't want their names attached to something that they know the voters will be pissed about later.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
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I like that. Though I'm sure you're aware that you and I are looking at it from opposing points of view.

I think it’s a politically agnostic point of view. Politicians are often corrupt and voters are generally ignorant and illogical.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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My understanding is that:

May will face another vote of confidence.

Brexit is not "dead".

May is opposed to another referendum. I doubt whether there is enough support for another referendum even if she is defeated.

At this point could be a "hard" Brexit or, as remote as it seems, another deal with the other EU members.

I think the real deadline for Brexit is in 2020. If so there's still a long way to go before it's resoved.

Fern

Support for another referendum:

"More than half of Britons (53%) would support holding a referendum asking between Brexit on the terms of the draft deal negotiated by the government, Brexit without a deal or remaining in the EU, while 36% would oppose it."

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-data-poll-53-of-british-public-want-second-eu-referendum-11584278

and effective March 29 Britain will be no longer part of the EU and that will trigger the, roughly, 20 month transition period.

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/18/6584...ing-may-says-britain-could-prolong-transition
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,577
9,268
136
Have to say as an ignorant American watcher, the House of Commons is extremely entertaining. Our government proceedings are generally like watching paint dry; even the most dramatic thing I can think of recently (McCain's thumbs down of the GOP medical "reform") didn't really cause a fuss. Normally someone can strip nude and light themselves on fire and the other Congressmen don't pay them any attention; they make speeches to nobody but the camera.

Love Speaker Bercow :)

Trust me, the routine gets really fucking tiresome when you see old men who are supposed to be helping run the country act like a bunch of fucking school kids every time they show up.

If you're interested in political slapstick, then looking up how the Japanese parliament/congress/whatever sometimes functions should be an eye-opener.

---

IMO (perhaps this is me being in the middle of the shit and hoping for the best), no-deal Brexit stands no chance of happening (unless some truly bizarre event comes out of the woodwork), and now we're heading towards a second referendum.

Theresa May might be against it, but frankly she's running out of options, and despite her being against it, more of her ministers are talking about it. I'm a big believer in how the comedy series 'Yes, Minister' portrayed politicians as people who only do things that win votes and anything else is "courageous" (in a negative light, because it's unlikely to win votes and is more likely to make them less popular and/or backfire). A no-deal Brexit stands a good chance of blasting the tory party into a party that's not even big enough to be the main opposition party, because as soon as people start not being able to get food or their prescriptions, people get uncivilised really fucking quickly, and it won't be forgotten for decades to come. That's just aside from the tory party being comprised of something like two-thirds remain voters, who will probably defect rather than continue to swim the wrong way up shit creek.

The second referendum is the best way to hand this steaming pile of shite back to the people and this time do a proper job of campaigning for remain. One thing I'm unsure about with a second referendum though is how the question would be asked. Logically it would have three options: "May's deal", "No deal", and "Remain", yet surely Leavers would be fragmented into the first two options and so reducing the likelihood of any Brexit. I'd be surprised if that happens, yet May's deal isn't even popular amongst Brexiteers. I suppose it could just be May's deal and remain being the only two options.

Jeremy Corbyn is really pissing me off now. Not only is he a Leaver running a party of almost exclusively Remainers and so therefore giving the main opposition party a lack of focus with regard to Brexit, but he's now also pushing for a general election at the time that we need to get Brexit nailed down (preferably into a coffin).
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,577
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Knowing something is a bad idea and will cause enormous suffering but doggedly determining to do it anyway because of a nonbinding referendum is the most British thing ever.

Please don't say that. I hope we're not that fucking stupid.
 

Triloby

Senior member
Mar 18, 2016
585
273
136
Jeremy Corbyn is really pissing me off now. Not only is he a Leaver running a party of almost exclusively Remainers and so therefore giving the main opposition party a lack of focus with regard to Brexit, but he's now also pushing for a general election at the time that we need to get Brexit nailed down (preferably into a coffin).

I'll admit that I kinda liked it when Jeremy came out ahead during the snap election. Nowadays, I find him to be completely worthless. Despite his bluster about how he can negotiate a better Brexit than May ever could, I haven't seen him do shit about it. I'd go so far to say that almost all British Eurosceptics are useless cowards and idiots that refuse to take any responsibility, or initiative to make Brexit happen the way they want it to. Then again, it's easy to see why they won't even do that.

Now I can see why people have no confidence in both the Labour and Tory parties anymore. As long as Jeremy is still around waving around his Eurosceptic dick at everyone else, I don't see how he'll be any better than May in regards to Brexit. And I don't even like May to begin with.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,577
9,268
136
I voted for Labour in the 2017 election because I thought that he was far more of a 'man of the people' who was happy to be as outspoken as he was in the right as well as a breath of fresh (and apparently honest) air for British politics, but Brexit seems to be something he's entirely unsuited for. I think he knows it but doesn't want to let go of power now he finally has it, so he's trying this nonsensical routine of pretending that Brexit mostly doesn't exist except as a stick to hit May with.

The Guardian's latest take on his position:
"Jeremy Corbyn has promised to “change our country for the better” in an upbeat party political broadcast, launched in the hope of an imminent general election, that fails to mention Brexit."

I mean, how do you do that? When you're positioning your party for yet another general election?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,335
7,987
136
I voted for Labour in the 2017 election because I thought that he was far more of a 'man of the people' who was happy to be as outspoken as he was in the right as well as a breath of fresh (and apparently honest) air for British politics, but Brexit seems to be something he's entirely unsuited for. I think he knows it but doesn't want to let go of power now he finally has it, so he's trying this nonsensical routine of pretending that Brexit mostly doesn't exist except as a stick to hit May with.

The Guardian's latest take on his position:
"Jeremy Corbyn has promised to “change our country for the better” in an upbeat party political broadcast, launched in the hope of an imminent general election, that fails to mention Brexit."

I mean, how do you do that? When you're positioning your party for yet another general election?
Hes been pretty useless about it but you shouldn't be surprised by that. Its just not something that hes interested in, he sees EU rules as a barrier to some of the more socialist policies that he wants to enact.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,577
9,268
136
Hes been pretty useless about it but you shouldn't be surprised by that. Its just not something that hes interested in, he sees EU rules as a barrier to some of the more socialist policies that he wants to enact.

Quite possibly, though while I was still impressed with him his opinion on Brexit early on was that his main priority would be to protect the rights and interests of the workers, which seemed in line with his general aims in politics.
 

Triloby

Senior member
Mar 18, 2016
585
273
136
I voted for Labour in the 2017 election because I thought that he was far more of a 'man of the people' who was happy to be as outspoken as he was in the right as well as a breath of fresh (and apparently honest) air for British politics, but Brexit seems to be something he's entirely unsuited for. I think he knows it but doesn't want to let go of power now he finally has it, so he's trying this nonsensical routine of pretending that Brexit mostly doesn't exist except as a stick to hit May with.

In other words, he turned out to be a major disappointment. Can't say I'm surprised in that regard. I get the feeling that he's already realized that trying to make his ideal Brexit situation (a unicorn farting rainbows) happen in the first place is just too much work to begin with.

At the end of the day, I still see him as just another Leaver, but with the undesirable fact that he's still the leader of the Labour party and everyone there wants the exact opposite of what Jeremy wants.
 
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