27 EU Leaders Agree on Theresa May's Brexit Withdrawal Deal

Triloby

Senior member
Mar 18, 2016
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46334649

And to the amazement of absolutely no one, nobody likes the deal at all. Both the British public and their MP's are quite unhappy with May's shitty deal, and the EU would rather wish that the UK didn't leave at all.

Even if the EU approves of it, it doesn't sound like UK Parliament will accept it. But if they don't accept it, then they're basically stuck without a deal at all. Which will be even worse than May's already-godawful deal.

What an absolute shit show all around...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,430
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Politics in the age of the internet where the fear can be used as a weapon by foreign states to cause people across the world to believe anything. The 1 percent want people in their own countries to be that way and have trained them so and now their own countries will fall to the weak-mindedness they wanted instilled. Democracies will fall because their people have forgotten how to think.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,708
9,571
136
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46334649

And to the amazement of absolutely no one, nobody likes the deal at all. Both the British public and their MP's are quite unhappy with May's shitty deal, and the EU would rather wish that the UK didn't leave at all.

Even if the EU approves of it, it doesn't sound like UK Parliament will accept it. But if they don't accept it, then they're basically stuck without a deal at all. Which will be even worse than May's already-godawful deal.

What an absolute shit show all around...

Or go back to the EU and hope they'll allow the rescinding of the Article 50 letter.

What annoys me the most about this deal is that it gives Eurosceptics/Brexiteers a new lease of life in their mission to constantly whinge about the EU, because with this proposal we'll actually have the scenario they claimed Brexit was supposed to fix.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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Asked if the UK would be better off than if it stayed in, he said the country would not be "significantly worse or better off but it does mean we get our independence back".

:laughing:
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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They are probably going to lose Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, maybe even Scotland. But hey, they showed them Europeans.
 
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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
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is it safe to say the people who voted for Brexit are not the ones who actually have to negotiate it?
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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Seems like honestly at this stage of the game foolish pride has taken charge over common sense.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
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They keep driving towards that cliff, negotiating on who gets to steer, and who gets to ride shotgun.

Fucking morons.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
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I RTFA but it didn't really go into details on why this particular deal is so bad other than some generalities: the leave group says it doesn't leave enough and the stay group says it leaves too much.

Can anyone shed a bit more light on what's going on here?
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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is it safe to say the people who voted for Brexit are not the ones who actually have to negotiate it?

Every time the Brexiteers have been given influential posts in the government (such as Brexit secretary / foreign secretary), they did a lot of whining, very little suggesting, and then resigned.

Boris Johnson's last high profile opinion piece omitted the issue of the Northern Ireland border altogether despite the fact that it was the stopping point in the negotiations.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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I RTFA but it didn't really go into details on why this particular deal is so bad other than some generalities: the leave group says it doesn't leave enough and the stay group says it leaves too much.

Can anyone shed a bit more light on what's going on here?

Full EU membership rides on four freedoms: Free movement of people, capital, goods and services. A full EU member gets a say in EU lawmaking, and in order to facilitate the freedoms, EU standards and legislation have to be in place so that quality of say goods meets a common standard. As a full member you can't pick and choose which of the freedoms you want.

The UK was a full EU member but we kept our own currency. We also had a veto allowing us to torpedo just about any proposal we didn't like. Pretty freaking sweet deal.

However, the UK has never taken EU politics seriously. EU politics almost never reach UK mainstream media except for right-wing idiots to complain about rules regarding bendy bananas and act like we have no say when in fact ring wingers prefer to complain about the EU rather than participate in it and forge relationships in the EU that benefit us and the EU as a whole. The only times when the UK would try to negotiate with the EU was to demand more privileges and our proposals would get shot down every time.

IMO the UK has suffered from 'British empire' thinking way past its sell-by date: If there's a notion of getting something for nothing, the UK loves it.

So after 30 years of the right wing media sources telling us that the EU wants to steal our babies and replace them with horrid foreign ones, the previous PM (in a desperate gambit to win the 2015 election) promised a referendum on EU membership, then on winning the election proceeded to run an utterly unspirited 'remain' campaign with lots of vague allusions that we'll be sorry to leave ladedadeda, meanwhile the leave campaign continued the rhetoric of the last 30 years along with the positive-sounding "take back our country" message and got a very narrow majority of the electorate.

The argument for 'Leave' was basically along the lines of that we have no say in EU politics (which was incorrect), that even more horrid foreigners will be allowed into the EU (FUD), and we need to "take back control of our borders" despite the fact that we could choose to control our borders more if we wanted to, but the fact remains that big businesses love to have cheaper employment that comes from immigration.

So the current deal basically says we will have no say over EU rules but we have to abide by them in order to trade with the EU. Yes, no more horrid EU foreigners coming in willy-nilly, but frankly most of them are white (or near enough not to matter), and the horrid foreigners that 9/10 Brexiteers complain about are not white and not from the EU so logically nothing changes as a result of us leaving the EU for them.

Also, the current deal deprives us of our 'financial passport' which has to do with the UK financial industry and freely trading in Europe that makes up about 20% of our economy, so we're throwing them under the bus as well.

The reason why there are so few deals on the table for us is the Northern Ireland border. N.I and Ireland share a land border and as a result of the Good Friday Agreement (to stop the hostilities between north and south), that has to stop being a border of any real importance. N.I is part of the UK so in leaving the EU we either have to jettison N.I from the UK (and since the conservatives paid £2bn to a Northern Ireland political party in exchange for propping up the minority conservative government here, that's not really an option if they want to get this deal through UK parliament), or we have to have a relationship with the EU which is compatible with a soft border between N.I and Ireland.

Of course, the N.I border was mentioned during the referendum campaign, but as a footnote and the Brexiteers told the electorate that they had had enough of experts so stop listening to pretty much all the economists telling the public that Brexit is an insanely bad idea, and that any other criticisms are nothing more than the FUD being circulated by the Dark Lord and his nefarious plan called "Project Fear".

It is utter insanity. I had been hoping against all reason that the conservative government was going to go through a massive song-and-dance to then conclude that Brexit is an insanely bad idea and constitutes a loss on pretty much every front, but seemingly May (who was a very quiet Remainer btw) is announcing full steam ahead despite everything. My only hopes now are one or both of these possibilities:

1 - Parliament grows a spine and tells the government to get fucked.
2 - Lacking a mandate (and/or feeling cold feet), the government resorts to another referendum.

I'm sceptical about Parliament because the Labour/opposition party is hopelessly divided by Jeremy Corbyn being pro Brexit and his party being mostly anti Brexit, the Scottish National Party are often abstaining from votes that aren't strictly about Scotland, and the conservatives are still kowtowing to wingnuts like the Christian fundamentalist Jacob Rees-Mogg (who is against abortion for any reason) and the British version of Donald Trump-lite being Boris Johnson.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,044
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Um...

https://trib.al/XBpvEsc

The U.K. could suffer the worst economic slump since at least World War II if Prime Minister Theresa May fails to get her Brexit plan past lawmakers and the country crashes out of the European Union without a deal.

The stark warning from the Bank of England sees the economy shrinking by 8 percent within a year and property prices plunging almost a third under a worst-case scenario. For context, the peak to trough drop in U.K. GDP in the financial crisis was just over 6 percent.

Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 11.56.00 AM.png

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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,708
9,571
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https://www.theguardian.com/society...t-set-to-relax-restrictions-on-non-eu-doctors

Between Theresa May's "hostile environment" (ie. putting out the 'not so welcome wagon' for immigrants), Brexit (making any people from the EU extremely wary about coming to work in the UK, the Windrush scandal (also by Theresa May, Caribbean immigrants in the sixties were told if they came to live here they'd be allowed to stay, then TM's department destroyed the remaining records of their arrival and tried to ship them all home), talk about a perfect storm for the NHS. When beginning this post I was going to suggest that the government offer British citizenship for free for any qualified doctor who works as that role for the NHS for say a few years, but knowing this government, they'd probably find a way to 'Windrush' the evidence of that citizenship.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,092
136
I really wish that some kind of deal would just get finalized so they and split and get it over with. The people of the UK voted in favor of it. Just give them what they asked for and we'll see how it all works out for them. I've got a feeling the UK will vote to apply for re-admittance into the EU within 10 years of the split but first they need to see the results of their decision. Dragging out this transition is just prolonging what I think will be the inevitable realisization of what a terrible choice UK voters made.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,049
7,976
136
I really wish that some kind of deal would just get finalized so they and split and get it over with. The people of the UK voted in favor of it. Just give them what they asked for and we'll see how it all works out for them. I've got a feeling the UK will vote to apply for re-admittance into the EU within 10 years of the split but first they need to see the results of their decision. Dragging out this transition is just prolonging what I think will be the inevitable realisization of what a terrible choice UK voters made.

Not really "the people of the UK" though. 52%, a bare majority, of those who voted. And spread very unevenly around the country as well. That's like saying "the people of the US voted for Trump". The problem in both cases is there doesn't appear to _be_ a single 'people' when it comes to the issue at hand. Maybe even in a wider sense? That may be the bigger problem, perhaps? Also it's become clear those who voted 'leave' didn't all mean the same thing by that vote, they appear to have wanted different outcomes, and the vote as Cameron's government framed it, didn't really say exactly what people would be voting for. Can't believe that idiot is making noises about returning to politics, much of this is his fault.

(And I still think it's possible the EU may fall apart anyway, because of all the other fractures within it...but I think we should have hung around to participate in that fight)
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,708
9,571
136
I really wish that some kind of deal would just get finalized so they and split and get it over with. The people of the UK voted in favor of it. Just give them what they asked for and we'll see how it all works out for them. I've got a feeling the UK will vote to apply for re-admittance into the EU within 10 years of the split but first they need to see the results of their decision. Dragging out this transition is just prolonging what I think will be the inevitable realisization of what a terrible choice UK voters made.

It doesn't work like that, and the results can be seen already: When this shit idea doesn't go according to plan*, instead of acknowledging that one voted for it in lieu of actually listening to experts and making a decision in a mature and sensible manner, one needs to find someone to blame. Theresa May is that person. The Brexiteers who quit have been talking about how she needs to negotiate better and stop letting the EU walk all over the UK, rather than doing their jobs and making sensible suggestions for how the UK's desires could be negotiated more effectively.

* - ahem.

Of course some of this situation is Theresa May's fault. She chose to be PM when the job description of 'negotiate Brexit' couldn't be any plainer, she keeps kowtowing to Brexiteer extremists, she's not open and honest with the people because she thinks that might affect her perception of her own popularity/power. Instead of growing a spine and saying that she's negotiated to the best of her ability and this is the best deal she could get but that it's a shit deal and she recommends rescinding Article 50 asap, and that she would happily stand aside for someone else who thinks they can negotiate a better deal than her, she is applying lipstick to the Brexit pig and telling us that this is a good deal. Then like other Brexiteers, she will quit as soon as her ego will allow it and retire abroad.

If say 'no deal' happens, the economy tanks and unemployment goes through the roof, Brexiteers absolutely will not blame Brexit. It'll be TM's fault, then the government's fault, then the EU's fault; possibly in that order or its reverse. Rather than its failure being scrutinised, Brexit will be brushed under the carpet as much as the Iraq II 'second dossier' was, no-one will be held accountable.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
I really wish that some kind of deal would just get finalized so they and split and get it over with. The people of the UK voted in favor of it. Just give them what they asked for and we'll see how it all works out for them. I've got a feeling the UK will vote to apply for re-admittance into the EU within 10 years of the split but first they need to see the results of their decision. Dragging out this transition is just prolonging what I think will be the inevitable realisization of what a terrible choice UK voters made.

It's pretty much impossible to give those people what they voted for, as they have no idea what it is they voted for in the first place.

The subject of the EU sends them into derp.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,049
7,976
136
I am unconvinced by the more apocalyptic ideas about 'hard Brexit', but I do believe it will be economically a bad, thing. We will get a bit poorer and unemployment will increase, and negative social consequences usually follow from that. Damn Cameron, damn him to hell. All this just to resolve some internal conflict in the Tory Party.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,494
2,120
126
Isnt democracy wonderful?? A bunch of ignorants and idiots who want to have an opinion on things they understand nothing about.

I say we just go to randomized law-making.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,708
9,571
136
Yes please Yes. Undo Putins work. Please.

The first time around I honestly thought that the Remain campaign was going to pull out the big guns close to the election date as part of some kind of 'having the last word' tactic. This time around I'm not going to make any assumptions that revolve around the idea of political competence, and I'm trying to think of the best way to get politically active.

@pmv

Considering that a few fucktards selling sub-prime mortgages were capable of what was generally considered to be the most severe recession in nearly 100 years, this time around a hard brexit would be causing businesses to lose tonnes of European clients because the UK would no longer be a cost-effective place to do business (one of my Brexit-voting customers told me that they've lost 80% of their customers post referendum and Brexit hasn't strictly speaking even happened yet), then in turn causing thousands of job losses and giving international companies no reason to invest in the UK because of its lack of access to the EU, etc. That's just aside from the fact that a hard brexit would mean that the UK needs to invest a shedload into customs and border management (at a time when a recession is on the cards, and with an investment-shy government) for the fleets of lorries that deliver goods every day, and without which supermarket shelves are not filled, business materials are not delivered, and the UK grinds to a halt in many respects.

@DigDog

Y2K by comparison was something that organisations knew was coming since forever and there wasn't any political influence exerted to try and convince organisations not to prepare for it, unlike Brexit on both counts. Talk of negative consequences regarding Brexit has been labelled as "Project Fear" and "completely unfounded" by the government ever since the referendum.