24-bit sound in games/consoles - when?

[beatle]

Not sure if this should be in OT or not, but it is a GENERAL question.

Anyone know when we might see games on PCs and/or consoles that make use of 24-bit sound? Racing games especially would benefit from the higher dynamic range that you get from 24-bit sound. The sound of an engine has a very wide range of volume that just doesn't sound realistic enough in current sound formats. Many higher end soundcards support 24-bit processing, so the hardware is here (at least for PCs).

I've read that Doom3 will have 5.1 channels, but this is an old article and it doesn't mention resolution. Other interviews I've read only mention that the sound will be better, but don't mention how.

 

[Nebor]

That's laughable, seeing as how game sounds aren't even up to CD quality yet.

 

[beatle]

What are you talking about? Many games offer 16-bit 44.1KHz sound with MORE than 2 channels. CD only has 2 and isn't any higher resolution.

 

[Nebor]

But the actual quality of that recorded sound is bleh.

 

[Cerb]

If games had CD quality sound, most would have several GB of sound files (~10MB/min). The output might be 16/44.1, but that's nothing if the source is not equivalent.

A phrase about chicken salad comes to mind.

 

[InlineFive]

The amount of audio channels doesn't have ANYTHING to do with it's bit rate. And I don't know when games will have this.

-Por

 

[beatle]

Originally posted by: PorBleemo
The amount of audio channels doesn't have ANYTHING to do with it's bit rate. And I don't know when games will have this.

-Por

This is sort of true. You can have a multichannel audio stream at a low bitrate or high, just like video bitrate has nothing to do with resolution. If you're playing a different 128kbps sound out of 4 channels, total output bitrate is 512kbps. Dolby Digital uses a very efficent encoding algorithm that (to me) sounds pretty damn good - better than cd. It's 48KHz and between 384 and 448kbps for all 5.1 channels.

So what's wrong with current sound (other than low resolution)? I thought Half-Life had great sound, and the whole MoH, CoD series of games had excellent sound.

 

[GoSharks]

Originally posted by: beatle
I thought Half-Life had great sound, and the whole MoH, CoD series of games had excellent sound.

half-life's music is actually cd music... ever try putting in the hl disc into a cd player? (i have no idea how i found that out...)

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: GOSHARKS

Originally posted by: beatle
I thought Half-Life had great sound, and the whole MoH, CoD series of games had excellent sound.

half-life's music is actually cd music... ever try putting in the hl disc into a cd player? (i have no idea how i found that out...)

I remember leaving my linkin park cd in my pc while i loaded up AoE, started playing as the turks, and all of a sudden, as i began building, crawling came on in the background! lol.

AFAIK, games consoles, and most sound cards out can handle at least 24/44.4, so as has been said, the hardware there.
But is the sound in current games really that bad?
IMO, it isnt. Listen to CoD, battle of staligrad, on a decent PC sound setup, then tell us that game audio is lacking.

 

[beatle]

I wasn't referring to the music, but it was decent also. You can have low quality music as long as it fits the mood. Only HL and Quake1 have had soundtracks worth listening to while playing, IMO (as far as action games go at least).

CoD DOES sound great at its current resolution, but think of the advantages of more bitrate and more samples! (Somehow I think I'm alone here, but I'm not sure why...)

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: beatle

Originally posted by: PorBleemo
The amount of audio channels doesn't have ANYTHING to do with it's bit rate. And I don't know when games will have this.

-Por

This is sort of true. You can have a multichannel audio stream at a low bitrate or high, just like video bitrate has nothing to do with resolution. If you're playing a different 128kbps sound out of 4 channels, total output bitrate is 512kbps. Dolby Digital uses a very efficent encoding algorithm that (to me) sounds pretty damn good - better than cd. It's 48KHz and between 384 and 448kbps for all 5.1 channels.

So what's wrong with current sound (other than low resolution)? I thought Half-Life had great sound, and the whole MoH, CoD series of games had excellent sound.

well pc games i know have cd quality sound, atleast some do. CoD 1942..etc give u options from 11-44khz...

 

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by: Cerb
If games had CD quality sound, most would have several GB of sound files (~10MB/min). The output might be 16/44.1, but that's nothing if the source is not equivalent.

A phrase about chicken salad comes to mind.

Would they really need several gigs of sound files? In most cases games loop the same music over and over again. Several, as defined by dictionary.com, is more than 2 or 3 but not many. So Several gigs would be, let's say, 4 gigs which is ~4,000MB so at ~10MB/min that would be 400 minutes of music divided by 60 would be about 6hrs and 40 minutes of original, unlooped, never repeated music. I've never really looked into it, but I would be very surprised if any game had anywhere close 6hrs worth of original, unlooped music. Maybe a long, multi-disc RPG or something but I bet most games could easily get away with less than an hours worth of original music. You just need a few minutes of generic background music to loop for most of the game (maybe different versions for each level) and then a few minutes of loopable music for "special events" (fighting a boss, beating a level, unlocking something important, etc.,).

I've had two games that have come w/their soundtrack on CD and/or the game music was in wav form on the game disc and both of them had a little under an hours worth of music.


Lethal

 

[beatle]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roowell pc games i know have cd quality sound, atleast some do. CoD 1942..etc give u options from 11-44khz...

Exactly, but it's the SIZE of those samples which can make for a game with a very wide dynamic range and bumping the sampling rate to at least 48KHz (nearly every card can do this nowadays) will make for even more detailed sound.

In regards to size, they'll obviously be bigger - roughly 50% bigger if you just up the sample size to 24-bits. Looking at my Unreal 2's folder, there is a folder just for sounds and it's only 310 megs. Given that the entire game takes up well over 2 gigs, I say sound doesn't take up nearly as much room as it should (given its importance). With giant hard drives now the norm, I say put those gigs to use!

 

[BoomAM]

But for almost everyone to take advantage of the extra clarity, ppl would have to have better speakers.
And put simply, only a few PC speakers are gonna be capible of doing the extra detail justice.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: LethalWolfe

Originally posted by: Cerb
If games had CD quality sound, most would have several GB of sound files (~10MB/min). The output might be 16/44.1, but that's nothing if the source is not equivalent.

A phrase about chicken salad comes to mind.

Would they really need several gigs of sound files? In most cases games loop the same music over and over again. Several, as defined by dictionary.com, is more than 2 or 3 but not many. So Several gigs would be, let's say, 4 gigs which is ~4,000MB so at ~10MB/min that would be 400 minutes of music divided by 60 would be about 6hrs and 40 minutes of original, unlooped, never repeated music. I've never really looked into it, but I would be very surprised if any game had anywhere close 6hrs worth of original, unlooped music. Maybe a long, multi-disc RPG or something but I bet most games could easily get away with less than an hours worth of original music. You just need a few minutes of generic background music to loop for most of the game (maybe different versions for each level) and then a few minutes of loopable music for "special events" (fighting a boss, beating a level, unlocking something important, etc.,).

I've had two games that have come w/their soundtrack on CD and/or the game music was in wav form on the game disc and both of them had a little under an hours worth of music.


Lethal

Music, spech, sound effects...with compresse files (some using MP3) it is not uncommon for them to have a few hundred MB, and uncompressed at CD quality that would be 5 to 10 times as big. So maybe several GB is exaggerating, but 1-2GB would seem a minimum, maybe 60-70% that with lossless compression.

 

[beatle]

Originally posted by: CerbMusic, spech, sound effects...with compresse files (some using MP3) it is not uncommon for them to have a few hundred MB, and uncompressed at CD quality that would be 5 to 10 times as big. So maybe several GB is exaggerating, but 1-2GB would seem a minimum, maybe 60-70% that with lossless compression.

Who says it has to be uncompressed? We already know that compressed sound can sound great (dolby). It doesn't even have to be lossless. It just has to be a higher resolution and preferably, more samples per second (like 48000 instead of 44100).

As for being able to hear the difference, you don't need outstanding speakers, just good ones - and they're becoming more popular by the minute. Hardware is already pushing the envelope for sound (audigy 2 zs, m-audio revo). Bring on the software!

 

[BoomAM]

But how many people will upgrade el-cheepo sound systems to decent/modern ones.
The chances are, that on AT anyway, that alot of us would. But in the bigger picture, where the vast majority of computer users/owners, dont have the technical knowledge, or are as computer literate as us forum dwellers, wont. As long as they can hear something, then they`ll be happy.

 

[Wingznut]

I guess I don't know the specs on the Xbox sound, or how many bits the music (downloaded to the hd) is... But I have a hard time imagining the sound being any better on my 5.1 home theatre.

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Originally posted by: Wingznut
I guess I don't know the specs on the Xbox sound, or how many bits the music (downloaded to the hd) is... But I have a hard time imagining the sound being any better on my 5.1 home theatre.

It's basically the nVidia Soundstorm (as used in the nForce2 south bridge).

As for increasing the dynamic range, I'm not sure how much of a difference you would hear (I've never heard 24-bit audio). Also, I remember reading somewhere that many games use Vorbis to compress audio (since there are no royalties attached to it, as in mp3s).

 

[beatle]

Originally posted by: BoomAM
But how many people will upgrade el-cheepo sound systems to decent/modern ones.
The chances are, that on AT anyway, that alot of us would. But in the bigger picture, where the vast majority of computer users/owners, dont have the technical knowledge, or are as computer literate as us forum dwellers, wont. As long as they can hear something, then they`ll be happy.

This is true. However, many, if not all games offer the ability to reduce sound quality as well as to not use EAX. Increasing the sampling rate and size of those samples isn't rocket science, it's just using higher quality samples.

If you've watched a DVD, you've heard 24-bit audio. As I said before, it may not be noticeable in some games. Simulation games that involve driving or flying would benefit the most. Engines sound much louder at full tilt than they do at idle. Unfortunately, games don't make that distinction. The sound may get louder, but it can only go so wide before it starts distorting. 24-bit will let you hear it more accurately.

I'm not sure if OGG supports 24-bit resolution or not... I couldn't find it in the FAQ.

 

[lazybum131]

I'm pretty sure that Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks on DVD-video are not 24-bit.

From what I know CD's are higher quality then either of them, but DD and DTS are multichannel which might make them sound better.

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: beatle
This is true. However, many, if not all games offer the ability to reduce sound quality as well as to not use EAX. Increasing the sampling rate and size of those samples isn't rocket science, it's just using higher quality

True.
But yet again, refering to my previous comment. How many people (who arnt as PC literate as us), will even bother to change anything in the options menu? Apart from the controls? Almost all of them leave things at default. Cos it works.

 

[beatle]

Originally posted by: BoomAM

Originally posted by: beatle
This is true. However, many, if not all games offer the ability to reduce sound quality as well as to not use EAX. Increasing the sampling rate and size of those samples isn't rocket science, it's just using higher quality

True.
But yet again, refering to my previous comment. How many people (who arnt as PC literate as us), will even bother to change anything in the options menu? Apart from the controls? Almost all of them leave things at default. Cos it works.

I guess it might be hard to see it that way. I've been "blind" all these years.

As far as Dolby is concerned, it's 24-bit, 48KHz. They may one day extend the sampling rate to 96KHz, as seen in this document from Dolby's website (see page 10).

I'm not really all that impressed with EAX, even it's latest incarnation. Maybe we're at the limit of multi-channel sound for PCs right now (or until Creative decides to make it better) but the crispness should be better! The Audigy 2 ZS sure isn't hurting in the realm of processing power, as cpu usage is almost negligable.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: BoomAM
But how many people will upgrade el-cheepo sound systems to decent/modern ones.
The chances are, that on AT anyway, that alot of us would. But in the bigger picture, where the vast majority of computer users/owners, dont have the technical knowledge, or are as computer literate as us forum dwellers, wont. As long as they can hear something, then they`ll be happy.

course that can be said about graphics, who has 500 dollar graphics cards anyways?

but really, it would be a good option.

 

[Socio]

If you use the audio out from sound card to a receiver that has digital coax or tosslink inputs then you don't have to wait for 24bit 96kHz sound you can have it now. You just need to get a MSB AUDIO DIRECTOR which upconverts analog to 24bit 96kHz.

AUDIO DIRECTOR

It is a bit expensive but if you want state of the art highend sound and do not want to wait, you can get it that way.