DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
In short: guns are guns. There are all sorts of guns.
A bb gun can be used for self defense. That doesn't make it a good gun for self defense.
A paintball gun can be used for self defense. That doesn't categorize it as a self-defense gun. If I was on your property and threatening to come up on your porch and beat you senseless, you brandishing either a paintball gun or a pumped up bb gun would keep me at bay. But, I'm a sane person.
Is that bb gun or paintball gun really going to stop a person determined to harm you before they can inflict harm on you? No. Unless you hit them in both eyes, you're really not going to incapacitate any person enough who is determined to cause you harm no matter what. That's why a bb gun and a paintball gun aren't categorized as "guns for self defense."
The same thing applies to 22's. You're not going to incapacitate a person quickly enough to stop them before they can harm you. That's wonderful that you can place 4 shots close together on a STATIONARY target 100 yards away. So could my kids when they were 8 years old. I hunt squirrels with a 22. I guarantee a 22 has penetrating power - I always have an entrance wound and an exit wound when I shoot small game. Well, I shouldn't say "always" - sometimes there's just a bloody pulp where a head used to be. (quick clean kill, no meat wasted.) I have *never* seen someone claim that a 22 wouldn't enter a person's chest or even break the skin; if I had, I'd have corrected them on the spot.
In self defense situations, you're not likely to have 100 yards advanced notice that the person is coming for you. You're not likely to have them stand still while you aim at them through your scope. And, if they're determined, you're not as likely to inflict enough harm to them to stop them before they harm you, as you would be able to with a defense gun.
A bb gun can be used for self defense. That doesn't make it a good gun for self defense.
A paintball gun can be used for self defense. That doesn't categorize it as a self-defense gun. If I was on your property and threatening to come up on your porch and beat you senseless, you brandishing either a paintball gun or a pumped up bb gun would keep me at bay. But, I'm a sane person.
Is that bb gun or paintball gun really going to stop a person determined to harm you before they can inflict harm on you? No. Unless you hit them in both eyes, you're really not going to incapacitate any person enough who is determined to cause you harm no matter what. That's why a bb gun and a paintball gun aren't categorized as "guns for self defense."
The same thing applies to 22's. You're not going to incapacitate a person quickly enough to stop them before they can harm you. That's wonderful that you can place 4 shots close together on a STATIONARY target 100 yards away. So could my kids when they were 8 years old. I hunt squirrels with a 22. I guarantee a 22 has penetrating power - I always have an entrance wound and an exit wound when I shoot small game. Well, I shouldn't say "always" - sometimes there's just a bloody pulp where a head used to be. (quick clean kill, no meat wasted.) I have *never* seen someone claim that a 22 wouldn't enter a person's chest or even break the skin; if I had, I'd have corrected them on the spot.
In self defense situations, you're not likely to have 100 yards advanced notice that the person is coming for you. You're not likely to have them stand still while you aim at them through your scope. And, if they're determined, you're not as likely to inflict enough harm to them to stop them before they harm you, as you would be able to with a defense gun.
pontifex
Lifer
- Dec 5, 2000
- 43,806
- 46
- 91
right, lets see how well you shoot when a crazy guy is charging you with a knife. you are most likely scared and nervous as hell as well.
nobody is saying that a .22 can't cause damage, but to cause the kind of damage you need to incapacitate someone, you need to rely on too many factors. you don't want to rely on chance when your life is on the line.
sao123
Lifer
- May 27, 2002
- 12,648
- 201
- 106
A salad fork can double as a self defense weapon too... and if a .22lr was the only thing in grabbing range when the emer hit, not to say i wouldnt go for it...
BUT when you are buying something to use for self defense... and you have a lot of options...
There are better all-purpose multi-role calibers than a .22... like 12 guage, (.270 or .243) Rifle, or (.32 .357 .38 .40) handgun
clearly this particular weapon should not be anywhere near the top of the list for anything that is not target practice.
Sure, a .22 can be lethal - so can a butter knife. However, the odds of the average Joe being able to place a shot from a .22 such that it would immediately disable an attacker threatening them while fearing for their life is virtually nil. Shot placement doesn't have to be quite as precise if you are using a round that will cause more trauma to the attacker.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,415
- 14,305
- 136
Oh c'mon... try shooting yourself in the arm or leg with a .22 and tell me you wouldn't be incapacitated.
Anything that can put a hole in someone can stop that someone. It's that simple. Don't believe me, think about having a hole in yourself. And a .22lr will leave a hole, guaranteed.
The whole caliber argument is the gun equivalent of e-penis. I swear, I pull out my P226 at the range and some tool has to tell me that he "wouldn't trust anything less than a .45 for home defense." Which is why the 9mm is used by military and police the world around, right? :roll:
edit: Oh FFS, now people are comparing .22's to salad forks and butter knives... :roll:
Anything that can put a hole in someone can stop that someone. It's that simple. Don't believe me, think about having a hole in yourself. And a .22lr will leave a hole, guaranteed.
The whole caliber argument is the gun equivalent of e-penis. I swear, I pull out my P226 at the range and some tool has to tell me that he "wouldn't trust anything less than a .45 for home defense." Which is why the 9mm is used by military and police the world around, right? :roll:
edit: Oh FFS, now people are comparing .22's to salad forks and butter knives... :roll:
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
- Feb 15, 2000
- 20,551
- 2
- 81
You know, everyone talks about penetrating power. But I need to ask, what is the likely hood that someone breaking into your house ISN'T going to get the hell out of there once you open fire with ANYTHING?
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Ahhh, in light of your edit:
Then, I wholeheartedly agree. A .22LR *can* be used for self defense. Of course, if a burglar broke in at night, I could certainly take off my underwear and use them for self-defense by snapping him in the side of the head with the elastic waistband. So, given that alternative, I'd much rather have the .22LR. But, if I was thinking, "I want a gun for self defense..." then a .22LR would be one of the last choices.
Then, I wholeheartedly agree. A .22LR *can* be used for self defense. Of course, if a burglar broke in at night, I could certainly take off my underwear and use them for self-defense by snapping him in the side of the head with the elastic waistband. So, given that alternative, I'd much rather have the .22LR. But, if I was thinking, "I want a gun for self defense..." then a .22LR would be one of the last choices.
The problem I see is that even a large caliber wouldn't instantly stop a determined assailant unless the central nervous system or heart were hit, correct?
BTW since we're talking about .22LR...
Some family friends were trying to slaughter pigs with .22LR shots to the head. We're talking close range (a few inches), square in the forehead. They weren't having much luck (dazed them a little, but that's about it).
A .17 HMR dropped them dead in their tracks.
Round Comparison
Viper GTS
Some family friends were trying to slaughter pigs with .22LR shots to the head. We're talking close range (a few inches), square in the forehead. They weren't having much luck (dazed them a little, but that's about it).
A .17 HMR dropped them dead in their tracks.
Round Comparison
Viper GTS
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,145
- 10
- 81
heh when i was 12 i was shot in the leg with a .22. IT FRICKEN HURT! i also had a nice little hole in my leg. Went to the doctor and they just pulled it out heh.
About the same time i shot myself in the same leg with my bow. i am still confused how i managed to do it. but have a nice long scare on my leg
Well hell - why are we spending all that money on 9mm and 5.56mm rounds for our military when .22LR is so well suited as a defense round? Oh yeah - because there ARE better tools for the job. :roll:
FallenHero
Diamond Member
- Jan 2, 2006
- 5,659
- 0
- 0
I'm not entirely sure what crawled up your ass Vic, but relying on a .22 to take down anything besides birds and squirrels is really really stupid. And alot of departments around me are switching to higher calibers because the 9mm simply sucks for taking someone down. Shot placement is all good, but when the shit hits the fan, your shot placement is gonna suck unless you train every day for that situation.
hanoverphist
Diamond Member
- Dec 7, 2006
- 9,928
- 23
- 76
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,415
- 14,305
- 136
Yeah, something crawled up my ass while you're talking about "shot placement" with an object less than half-an-inch in diameter traveling 1000 ft/s or more towards a moving target a foot-and-a-half across at anywhere between 22 feet and a 100 yards away.
I swear, not even fishermen tell as much BS.
What argument? I am merely trying to answer the original question -
Just because it will do the job doesn't mean it is a good fit. It wasn't a comparison to a butter knife, just a statement as to the absurdity of saying that because a .22 was lethal that it was a good defensive weapon.
The general thought is:
A .22 caliber bullet doesn't have enough impact force to stop a human being, *especially* if they're on an adrenaline high. There are documented cases of people being shot with 22s or 9mm handguns 20 or 30 times and *still* reaching the person with the gun and hurting them.
Most police departments now are moving to 44 or 45s because they *stop* people who are running toward them because the impact force tends to knock people over or spin them around.
Statistically, *most* gunshots happen within something like 30 feet, and that gives a person with, say, a knife, *more* than enough time to run at you before you get enough 22 shots into them to stop them. An interesting read on this is the book "On Killing" by a Lt. David Grossman.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Strawman? "that's not the argument"? But, you said:
As I said before, it's not a matter of the ability to stop someone, but *how quickly* you can stop someone really determined to cause harm to you. Personally, I completely agree that if you're only going to have one weapon in the house, and you *also* want to use that for hunting, there's nothing wrong with a .22LR. Sure, you can use it for self defense. And, it's much more effective than nothing. But, to purchase a weapon solely for self-defense? I don't think a .22LR is on that list.
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