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.22LR not a good round for defense?

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Injury

Lifer
Jul 19, 2004
13,066
2
0
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: tfinch2
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: LS20
5 pages of arguments and i only need to propose my simple "turing" test to you:

i have a 22lr in my hand and a large diamond in my bedroom that you want, will you be able to get it?
Its 2007 man, increase your posts per page to 100. And if I knew ahead of time where you were and what you had, then yes I could get the diamond pretty easily.
:roll: :laugh:

Come on dude, you're not Jason Bourne.
Have you ever experienced a flashbang? For real, not counterstrike. Besides, I'd just wait till the guy left his house. Casing the joint FTW.
Fast burning magnesium = Yikes.

Nothing like having the image of a flame rising up as the only thing you can see for a good 10 seconds... and still "visible" for a few minutes more. It's bright enough that even with your eyelids closed, you see a bit of reddish pink. It's like holding a powerful flashlight up against your hand... how it makes it glow a bit around the cracks between your fingers... only on the inside of your eyes.

Forutunately I've never had a flashbang headed my direction. I think my eyes are still messed up from working at the factory where I would get flashed with burning Mg a few times a day.
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
5
91
I'm sure someone's mentioned it....but shooting from 100yds with a scope isn't exactly self defense, so it's entirely irrelevant to your argument .22LR is great for long range plinking and all, but I prefer a caliber with some stopping power.
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
206
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Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

Yeesh, maybe you should take some time off of gun threads, they seem to affect you too personally. A head is a smaller target than a torso, they could easily ask why you aimed in the head, and it would be just as easy to charge the defender with excessive force.

Myself, I'd aim at the torso not so much for any potential legal reasons, I just want to make sure I hit something while I'm shooting in the dark, a crappy hit is better than none.
Reading misinformation won't affect me personally. I know better. I'm just trying to make sure that other people don't believe urban legends either.

Depending on if your state has the castle doctrine or not your answer would be "There was an unauthorized intruder in my home" or "There was an intruder in my home, I felt directly threatened, and utilized my firearm to stop the threat."

Shooting someone in the head is NOT excessive force. Heres a hint, firearms are not made to disable people. Granted, you might be shooting to "stop" but a round in the head will stop just fine.

Now, if you want to argue that a headshot is a poor shot choice, then thats an entirely different story. The only headshots that should ever be taken are by trained marksmen when absolute instant kill shots are necessary (suicide bomber, hostage taker, etc). For the rest of us the torso is the obvious point of aim. But hey, sometimes we miss. And sometimes we miss high.
Seems the horror stories about robbers suing the robbed, and winning, have got me more cautious about this than I should be :eek: Heck, I don't even live in CA...

Back on topic, I own a 12ga and a .22, and would reach for the shotgun before the rifle, even though it's a pump and the other is a semi-auto. I think the clang-clang of it would be enough to make anyone freeze.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
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Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

Back on topic, I own a 12ga and a .22, and would reach for the shotgun before the rifle, even though it's a pump and the other is a semi-auto. I think the clang-clang of it would be enough to make anyone freeze.
LOL, I knew this was coming. Sorry, but the racking of a shotgun is a terrible home defense idea. This eventually comes up in every single home defense thread. Tipping off your intruder gives him just a tiny bit more time to draw his weaon. Instead of racking the shotgun to scare the intruder, just shoot him. Pick out your best Ambush spot and wait.

Edit - you are right about the civil suits though. They are bullshit, and the reason why many states are starting to give homeowners more rights.
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
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Oh he can draw all he wants, I don't screw around and have 00 buckshot, and won't cock it until it's otherwise ready to fire and I can see the guy to get a decent shot. Think about it, do you really want to clean up and replace the mess involved in all those pellets flying into the wall, TV, etc behind the guy? I'd give them a chance to surrender, but I'd also be ready to pop them if they try something idiotic like that.

edit: not to mention, I'd have to clang it anyway since I don't keep the thing loaded, though there's no little kids around so I do have the ammo right next to it.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
Oh he can draw all he wants, I don't screw around and have 00 buckshot, and won't cock it until it's otherwise ready to fire and I can see the guy to get a decent shot. Think about it, do you really want to clean up and replace the mess involved in all those pellets flying into the wall, TV, etc behind the guy? I'd give them a chance to surrender, but I'd also be ready to pop them if they try something idiotic like that.
Yes, I would clean up the mess and contact my insurance company for damages. If someone breaks into my home either to steal or harm my family then they deserve to die. If you try to force a surrender, chances are that the intruder will run. That just means that he'll be breaking into another house another day, or perhaps yours, only this time armed.

What's your surrender plan, stay right there on the floor while I go get my cell phone to call 911. Chances are that it'll be the middle of the night and you wont have your cell on you.

At least you have 00 in your shotgun though. That is the round of choice for a 12 guage home defense gun.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
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Originally posted by: SilthDraeth
Originally posted by: TallBill
Your title and your first sentance condradict yourself. This isn't worth responding to.
Not really. If you read what I wrote, and my follow ups, it isn't contradicting. It is a perfectly capable round, and is good. That doesn't mean its the best choice.

Any how the heck did your friend manage to find himself the target of a glancing blow from a 7.62x39?
you're right, they don't contradict. they are two completely opposite things
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
206
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Actually probably wouldn't be living alone, so I'd call in someone else to get on the phone. Right now I live in a dorm, so this is all somewhat moot, but I do still have the shotgun in my closet at my parents' place, and will move it with me to the next place they allow firearms. At mom and dad's they're there to call the cops, by the time I'm out of college I'll hopefully be married, so she can call the cops. If I'm still single, I'll be living in a one-room apartment and walking a foot to my cell phone on the stand won't be too difficult :p

That is a good point about them running and robbing someone else, but I like to be optimistic and think they'll have some brains scared into them. Assuming they do run, how do you think the cops would handle me shooting them in the back of the legs as they're trying to hop my fence?
 

upsciLLion

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
5,947
1
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Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
Assuming they do run, how do you think the cops would handle me shooting them in the back of the legs as they're trying to hop my fence?
Using a firearm is lethal force period. Someone running away from you doesn't constitute a threat to your life warranting defensive lethal force.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
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Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
Actually probably wouldn't be living alone, so I'd call in someone else to get on the phone. Right now I live in a dorm, so this is all somewhat moot, but I do still have the shotgun in my closet at my parents' place, and will move it with me to the next place they allow firearms. At mom and dad's they're there to call the cops, by the time I'm out of college I'll hopefully be married, so she can call the cops. If I'm still single, I'll be living in a one-room apartment and walking a foot to my cell phone on the stand won't be too difficult :p

That is a good point about them running and robbing someone else, but I like to be optimistic and think they'll have some brains scared into them. Assuming they do run, how do you think the cops would handle me shooting them in the back of the legs as they're trying to hop my fence?
First of all, if the bad guy is running away outside and you shoot him, you are screwed unless he already shot someone and you were a witness. Even then it might be hazy.

Anyways, there is no such thing as "shooting in the legs" or "shooting in the head" as far as the law cares. Firing a gun at someone is use of lethal force, period.

And no, they wont be scared into being smart. Thats why they are criminals. Not to many super intelligent people end up doing home invasions.
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
206
106
Originally posted by: upsciLLion
Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
Assuming they do run, how do you think the cops would handle me shooting them in the back of the legs as they're trying to hop my fence?
Using a firearm is lethal force period. Someone running away from you doesn't constitute a threat to your life warranting defensive lethal force.
Pretty much what I figured, I may have to rethink my strategy and just put a .22 in them with no warning.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,716
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The Ruger 10/22 is a fully suppressed 0.22 caliber semi auto sniper rifle with a 10 rounds rotary magazine.

In 1987, the Intifada - the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories - broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs.

The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon's mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a "Hush Puppy" weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations.

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it's deployment was cut down dramatically.















http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,716
51
91
Originally posted by: TallBill
What are you trying to prove IGBT?


..the .22 is greatly under rated in it's lethal effects and this misconception has resulted in death and injury.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: sponge008
Everyone knows the deagle in .50 is best.
Does anybody who actually owns and/or has fired a Desert Eagle actually call it a "deagle" or is that just a term coined by Counterstrike playing nerds?
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,502
214
106
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sponge008
Everyone knows the deagle in .50 is best.
Does anybody who actually owns and/or has fired a Desert Eagle actually call it a "deagle" or is that just a term coined by Counterstrike playing nerds?
I'll go with the latter..
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
\
Originally posted by: IGBT
..the .22 is greatly under rated in it's lethal effects and this misconception has resulted in death and injury.
Using a firearm as a nonletal option is retarded. It still doesn't make it a good self defense round, which is what this thread is about.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
9
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sponge008
Everyone knows the deagle in .50 is best.
Does anybody who actually owns and/or has fired a Desert Eagle actually call it a "deagle" or is that just a term coined by Counterstrike playing nerds?
never fired one but i have got to hold one! My little brother from the big brother program is in the milatary and a gun nut. he has a nice collection of guns. i was shocked at how big and heavy it was. Not to mention how fucking loud it was when fired.

 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,716
51
91
Originally posted by: TallBill
\
Originally posted by: IGBT
..the .22 is greatly under rated in it's lethal effects and this misconception has resulted in death and injury.
Using a firearm as a nonletal option is retarded. It still doesn't make it a good self defense round, which is what this thread is about.
..then you fail to understand ballistics. The difficulty of mastering accuracy in larger calibers and the importance of recovery in follow up shots. Fact of the matter is most people won't practice enough with a larger caliber to become proficient in it's use.

 

upsciLLion

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
5,947
1
81
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: TallBill
What are you trying to prove IGBT?


..the .22 is greatly under rated in it's lethal effects and this misconception has resulted in death and injury.
Take a look at the difference between the wound cavities from .22LR and 9mm hollow points. The 22 will make you bleed out eventually, but the 9mm will send your body into shock in fairly short order.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,502
214
106
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: TallBill
\
Originally posted by: IGBT
..the .22 is greatly under rated in it's lethal effects and this misconception has resulted in death and injury.
Using a firearm as a nonletal option is retarded. It still doesn't make it a good self defense round, which is what this thread is about.
..then you fail to understand ballistics. The difficulty of mastering accuracy in larger calibers and the importance of recovery in follow up shots. Fact of the matter is most people won't practice enough with a larger caliber to become proficient in it's use.
Most people won't practice enough with any caliber to become proficient in its use...

There's a reason you don't see police departments carrying .22's.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
If you don't practice enough to use your firearm then thats your own damn fault. I'm not recomending using a bolt action 30-06. My wife can put all 15 rounds out of her Glock 19 on a man sized target at 15 feet after just a few trips to the range. Its not that hard.

Anyways, IGBT, I find it hilarious that you say that I know nothing about ballistics, and then instead argue about training. Which is it? Do I know nothing about ballistics or training?
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,900
10
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Originally posted by: CadetLee
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sponge008
Everyone knows the deagle in .50 is best.
Does anybody who actually owns and/or has fired a Desert Eagle actually call it a "deagle" or is that just a term coined by Counterstrike playing nerds?
I'll go with the latter..
This is true.
 

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