2011 Lost year for America Middle Class

[werepossum]

Speaking of someones life really sucking... Mine is pretty damn good. just got a 550$ performance bonus plus another 4500$ goal sharing bonus coming at the first of the year.

Congrats!

 

[XZeroII]

None of that is really true. The middle and working class made substantially greater economic gains than the wealthy during the 1950-1980 timeframe than in the 1980-2010 period. There were a variety of policy mechanisms that promoted it. A largely closed economy, strong labor unions, high taxes on very large incomes, & much stronger financial regulations among them.

All too many people see only the ways to prosper within a given system rather than seeing the system. In Medieval Europe, the system was created to benefit Royalty at the expense of the rest. In the industrial revolution, it benefited capitalist wealth holders. In the antebellum South, it benefited slave holders. In N Korea, it benefits the Kim family & cronies. In each of those systems, the people at the bottom saw ways to improve themselves, even if only slightly.

In modern representative democracies, the people have the ability to change the game, the system, to benefit more or fewer people. That was the basis of the American revolution itself. And that has happened more than once in this country, in the progressive era & the trust busters of 100 years ago, in the New Deal, and in the civil rights acts, as well.

It has shifted back the other way over the last 30 years, simply because enough people forgot some of the things their grandparents & great grandparents learned long ago.

I wasn't saying that there is no way for the poor or middle class to get ahead at all. I was responding to what you said. The context of my post was in response to your post. You can't just take what I say out of context and act like you've just won the argument. Your post talked about game theory and I was refuting that.

Clear enough?


Also, you said that none of what I said is true. Do you honestly believe that education has no impact at all on the poor and middle class rising out of poverty? Seriously?

 

[XZeroII]

While I commend you on working hard, your situation sounds exactly like a middle class person who has lost ground during 2011 (if not more). You're exactly what the OP is all about, IMO. I also think that this is becoming systemic and will eventually hit a head. Can't keep tearing the foundation out at the bottom and middle and not expect the building to fall at some point. Only those at the top with helicopters will get out.

Not at all. I've definitely gained ground this year. I'm much better off than last year.

 

[dmcowen674]

We all have to play the hands we are dealt with in life. If you have ever played poker, you make the most out of whatever hand you get. Sometimes the best is to simply fold, other times you might take a chance, and others you get a straight flush. But you don't blame the dealer do you?

Not blaming the dealer, it is the other thieving players and they will be dealt with.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Explain what you did different from the rest of middle class Americans that are getting kicked down.

Did you get a raise?

Yep!

Did your health benefits not go up?

Nope! My employer still pays 100% of my premiums and the deductible is the same as last year.

Did prices of just about everything not go up for you?

Nope. A few things did, but not "everything."

How did you accomplish all that?

Errr, I worked hard for many years and jumped to an employer with awesome perks and benefits?

 

[cybrsage]

I know someone who, through no fault of his own, is unable to afford his mortgage...read on and see what happened:

Bill (random name) bought a house he could afford. He got a great interest rate when he bought too. He did not buy too big of a house, just slightly larger than he currently needed so he could expand the family without having to move. Future proofing so to speak...and like I said, he could afford the house.

Problem is, the mortgage company was actually playing the system...and the bubble burst. Not sure how they were cooking their books and such, but suddenly they were going bankrupt and out of business.

In every loan is a recall notice...the morgage company can demand you pay your loan in full upon notice from them. This is what happened to Bill. Bill obviously did not have the money on hand to pay the entire mortgage off (else he would not have needed one), so he had to get a new loan to pay off the first. Here is where his trouble started...the new loan was at a much higher interest rate.

Suddenly, Bill could no longer afford his home. He was forced to have them take the house away from him due to non-payment.

Bill did nothing wrong...but suddenly found himself unable to make his mortgage payments. That happened quite a bit after the housing market collapse.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

I know someone who, through no fault of his own, is unable to afford his mortgage...read on and see what happened:

Bill (random name) bought a house he could afford. He got a great interest rate when he bought too. He did not buy too big of a house, just slightly larger than he currently needed so he could expand the family without having to move. Future proofing so to speak...and like I said, he could afford the house.

Problem is, the mortgage company was actually playing the system...and the bubble burst. Not sure how they were cooking their books and such, but suddenly they were going bankrupt and out of business.

In every loan is a recall notice...the morgage company can demand you pay your loan in full upon notice from them. This is what happened to Bill. Bill obviously did not have the money on hand to pay the entire mortgage off (else he would not have needed one), so he had to get a new loan to pay off the first. Here is where his trouble started...the new loan was at a much higher interest rate.

Suddenly, Bill could no longer afford his home. He was forced to have them take the house away from him due to non-payment.

Bill did nothing wrong...but suddenly found himself unable to make his mortgage payments. That happened quite a bit after the housing market collapse.

That's known as a demand clause and I'd never heard of it in a consumer mortgage before this. It's definitely not standard and must be disclosed prior to closing.

 

[cybrsage]

That's known as a demand clause and I'd never heard of it in a consumer mortgage before this. It's definitely not standard and must be disclosed prior to closing.

I am sure it was disclosed...there is a check box for it on standard mortgage forms (and you are right about the name, I could not remember it). The mortgage company lied to them about the meaning...they said it was the on sale type (when you sell your house you have to pay off the mortgage), when it was not.

 

[gingermeggs]

I wasn't saying that there is no way for the poor or middle class to get ahead at all. I was responding to what you said. The context of my post was in response to your post. You can't just take what I say out of context and act like you've just won the argument. Your post talked about game theory and I was refuting that.

Clear enough?


Also, you said that none of what I said is true. Do you honestly believe that education has no impact at all on the poor and middle class rising out of poverty? Seriously?

So what now everybody needs a degree?
What to live a simple secure life in the middle class doing fundamental service provision and blue collar trades.

Is that how you make more money in the kitty for the newly made poor?

You gamble it fails, you lose, but whats happening here is everybody else (except those that actually did the deeds that fucked the place over) is now paying for it as a direct consequence.
Can't change it now, many of the still rich people should be jailed for whats happened because they scored off this scam.
....Now its time to close that game for once and for all!
Carbon trading is going to be the next big scam, we could stop it happening if the majority of normal people united and said no more of this economist con artist stuff!

Regulate the financial sectors to protect those that don't aim to be rich in life(greedy).

Build some public sector counters to the corporate sector, give people the choice between secure, honest and modest or risky, dubious and likely to collapse if you don't get word that its time to pull out (insider traders).
Legally rape Goldman Sachs and all their executive staff both past and present!
Clean out the political system and the federal reserve bank- sack them all for poor performance, jail them if they want to argue about it.
Start fresh to have half a chance, for you grand kids sakes.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

I am sure it was disclosed...there is a check box for it on standard mortgage forms (and you are right about the name, I could not remember it). The mortgage company lied to them about the meaning...they said it was the on sale type (when you sell your house you have to pay off the mortgage), when it was not.

Did he have a lawyer at closing?

 

[Ausm]

Explain what you did different from the rest of middle class Americans that are getting kicked down.

Did you get a raise?

Did your health benefits not go up?

Did prices of just about everything not go up for you?

How did you accomplish all that?

Let me see here...

No raise in the last 10 years.. check!

Healthcare has gone up every year for the last 30+ years..check!

Inflation...check!

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Let me see here...

No raise in the last 10 years.. check!

Healthcare has gone up every year for the last 30+ years..check!

Inflation...check!

I've never not gotten a raise in my entire professional career. I don't understand why people stay at places that don't give them raises several years in a row. One or two years might be OK, but 5+? I'd have a new job lined up as soon as I could.

 

[Ausm]

I've never not gotten a raise in my entire professional career. I don't understand why people stay at places that don't give them raises several years in a row. One or two years might be OK, but 5+? I'd have a new job lined up as soon as I could.

I've been working at the same place for 30+ and I am maxed on the pay scale.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I've been working at the same place for 30+ and I am maxed on the pay scale.

Doesn't your pay band's upper limit increase every year?

 

[Ausm]

Doesn't your pay band's upper limit increase every year?

I get a cost of living increase but it really isn't much but I make a heck of a lot more then most people so I can't complain. I have all my alimony,CS, Kids College,Lawyers and Possessions paid off so I'm good.

 

[bfdd]

Our group is like a whole quarter a head of schedule. We're under budget as well. We'll probably get a pretty decent bonus this year.

 

[Jhhnn]

I wasn't saying that there is no way for the poor or middle class to get ahead at all. I was responding to what you said. The context of my post was in response to your post. You can't just take what I say out of context and act like you've just won the argument. Your post talked about game theory and I was refuting that.

Clear enough?


Also, you said that none of what I said is true. Do you honestly believe that education has no impact at all on the poor and middle class rising out of poverty? Seriously?

You miss my point entirely. The relative well being of individuals in a class can improve by a variety of personal efforts & mechanisms, but that's not really relevant to the well being of the class as a whole, which was my reference.

If aggregate middle class employment & earnings decline, which they have, that ultimately affects the opportunities for every member of the group. If they become better trained & educated, that doesn't mean that opportunities to use those new skills actually exist on a proportional basis. Just because there are more engineers or whatever doesn't mean that there are more jobs for engineers. What it really means is that Engineers end up being paid less if there are more than the market demands.

In many respects, govt policy affects the distribution of income & wealth. In post WW2 America, policy structure favored the middle class. From Reagan forward, policy has favored the ultra wealthy, and it shows. It's not like they need to be favored, anyway, or that they were being horribly oppressed prior to Reagan, either. They were, after all, fabulously wealthy, if not quite so much as they are today.

Back then, they felt lucky to pay big taxes on big money. Today, they feel entitled to pay less on an even bigger % of national income, while their champions shamelessly compare progressive taxation to the holocaust & the invasion of Poland. They'll devour the rest of us out of greed if we let 'em, placate & inspire their fanbois with slogans about hard work, education, individuality & freedom even as they pound us into the mold of Dickensian wage slavery.

Hell, it's not so bad when they're actually employing wage slaves, but they're lightening the load, tossing some of the slaves overboard like in that scene from Amistad...

 

[gingermeggs]

You miss my point entirely. The relative well being of individuals in a class can improve by a variety of personal efforts & mechanisms, but that's not really relevant to the well being of the class as a whole, which was my reference.

If aggregate middle class employment & earnings decline, which they have, that ultimately affects the opportunities for every member of the group. If they become better trained & educated, that doesn't mean that opportunities to use those new skills actually exist on a proportional basis. Just because there are more engineers or whatever doesn't mean that there are more jobs for engineers. What it really means is that Engineers end up being paid less if there are more than the market demands.

In many respects, govt policy affects the distribution of income & wealth. In post WW2 America, policy structure favored the middle class. From Reagan forward, policy has favored the ultra wealthy, and it shows. It's not like they need to be favored, anyway, or that they were being horribly oppressed prior to Reagan, either. They were, after all, fabulously wealthy, if not quite so much as they are today.

Back then, they felt lucky to pay big taxes on big money. Today, they feel entitled to pay less on an even bigger % of national income, while their champions shamelessly compare progressive taxation to the holocaust & the invasion of Poland. They'll devour the rest of us out of greed if we let 'em, placate & inspire their fanbois with slogans about hard work, education, individuality & freedom even as they pound us into the mold of Dickensian wage slavery.

Hell, it's not so bad when they're actually employing wage slaves, but they're lightening the load, tossing some of the slaves overboard like in that scene from Amistad...

The rich want to re-engineer the modern western countries to be more like India or Indonesia in class and social order.......what a vision of the future!

Take away the economic engineering and the rich will have to use their money for more steady, committed and productively positive reasons in their own country.

Seems if you make people mega wealthy(billy gates) they then go wanting to cure the poorest countries(which doesn't work because they are poor through corruption and greed at the top end of society).
They think money can change the world!
It doesn't work, the problems are because of the fractured classicist divide, middle classes should become the only class ultimately, to the point of material things aren't an issue for people to be happy, they'll have opportunity to make the best out of their capacity and capabilities.
The rich aren't patient enough or skilled enough to ever make anything more then money and hardship for the "little people!"