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2 speaker car audio

SpatiallyAware

SpatiallyAware

Lifer
Does anyone have any firsthand experience with 2.1 stereo in a car?

My late model BMW z4 has a THX 10 speaker stock stereo, and it is terrible. Really, really terrible. The extra speakers don't do anything, the whole thing is just muddy and doesn't sound clear. They are all like this, it's a common problem with this car.

My ranger has 2 good after market speakers from ~2000 with dedicated tweeters and it sounds far better.

I really don't feel like I get that much from the rear channels in the BMW since it's a 2 seater. I have an audioengine 2.1 setup at home and it's fantastic, what would it take to get something like that in a car?

I definitely want to keep the stock headunit..
 
You've just come to the same conclusion as anyone with 'audiophile' leanings- surround in a car, and lots of speakers in general, do not make music sound better.

As you said, it's just 'muddier.' This comes from cancellation, uneven frequency response, ect. A big pile of mismatched speakers are always going to lead to that result.

An optimal setup in most all cars:

Front component speakers; a 'midbass' for frequencies somewhere in the 50-100hz range on up, and a tweeter for the high end. The part where they seperate is the 'crossover' range, and it can vary quite a bit. There is some overlap, but the response of each speaker is gradually falling off once into that range. For most, this is accomplished with passive crossover boxes.

Then you need a subwoofer for the frequencies below what the midbass speakers can handle. Doesn't mean booming bass...you just need to provide better coverage in the <100hz range. Below that frequency, it is extremely hard to locate the source of the sound. Hence why a proper sub setup is kind of like makeup on a woman- you shouldn't know that it's there. Those not in the know will just comment on how ridiculously punchy your door speakers are.

Some like to have 'rear fill,' but I highly oppose it in small cars. And even when it is wanted, the goal is just as the wording implies: it's filler for the back of the car. You want to keep it low and prevent it from interfering with your front comps.

What year is the Bimmer? If may have fiber optic stuff, which greatly complicates replacement of parts.
 
You're comparing a convertible to a pickup. The acoustics are drastically different. Find a good shop that can place your speakers where they're actually effective - install is a lot more critical with open top.
 
I would pretty much guarantee the speaker locations in a Z4 are better than in a Ranger. With the top up on the 'vert, it's probably also better sealed.

Not calling Rangers shitty...they're good at what they do. But they're still a cheap 80's/90's truck that has changed very little over the years.

The most important location with comps is the tweeters, and it's best to get everything hooked up and play with different setups. Different speakers and going to sound better in different configurations, even in the same vehicle.
 
Thanks for the help, everyone.

I have an 08 m coupe, so no drop top.

I believe that the issues have to do with amp programming more than speaker locations.. BMW 'adjusted' the amps in the coupes to sound better since it's not a vert and actually made them terrible. I have read about people flashing the amp coding from a convertible and fixing some of the problems, but before I dig into all of that I want to make sure that a ~10 speaker system is what's best for me in the first place.

To me, at home, I have never heard a multi channel (front/rear/etc) that sounded better with music than a good 2.1 setup. Of course I don't care about front/rear separate soundstage in a car. It just seems logical that a similar 2.1 setup would sound good.. Again, no back seats so I really don't care about sound coming from behind my head.


There are a couple of audio places near me, I might stop by next week to see what they have to say. I'm a bit jaded at these (even reputable) audio shops as I've been burned on an expensive install before, that took months and months of tweaking to sound decent. I'm all about simplicity... Seriously... If I was able to fit those audioengine speakers and sub in my car I would buy an extra set and do it.
 
phucheneh said:
You've just come to the same conclusion as anyone with 'audiophile' leanings- surround in a car, and lots of speakers in general, do not make music sound better.

As you said, it's just 'muddier.' This comes from cancellation, uneven frequency response, ect. A big pile of mismatched speakers are always going to lead to that result.

An optimal setup in most all cars:

Front component speakers; a 'midbass' for frequencies somewhere in the 50-100hz range on up, and a tweeter for the high end. The part where they seperate is the 'crossover' range, and it can vary quite a bit. There is some overlap, but the response of each speaker is gradually falling off once into that range. For most, this is accomplished with passive crossover boxes.

Then you need a subwoofer for the frequencies below what the midbass speakers can handle. Doesn't mean booming bass...you just need to provide better coverage in the <100hz range. Below that frequency, it is extremely hard to locate the source of the sound. Hence why a proper sub setup is kind of like makeup on a woman- you shouldn't know that it's there. Those not in the know will just comment on how ridiculously punchy your door speakers are.

Some like to have 'rear fill,' but I highly oppose it in small cars. And even when it is wanted, the goal is just as the wording implies: it's filler for the back of the car. You want to keep it low and prevent it from interfering with your front comps.

What year is the Bimmer? If may have fiber optic stuff, which greatly complicates replacement of parts.
Click to expand...



Hmm... See, part of this is I'm dreading even reading about what it will take to hook up my stock headunit to an aftermarket amplifier (let alone finding a place for the amp etc).

There are speaker locations in the kickpanels (~6"), the door (~4"), the A pillar (tweeters), and behind the seats (subs, another mid bass I think)


I have seen this:

http://www.bavariansoundwerks.com/p...rade-for-BMW-Z4-Roadster--Coupe-03-08-E85E86/

But again, my issues revolve around the amplifier. From what I've read the stock 10 speaker thx system has really quality carver speakers, and that the amp itself is the issue. No one makes an aftermarket amplifier which makes me feel like about the only decent option is to replace everything.
 
I'd skip the BSW. I do not think that anyone makes a harness for the e85/6 to tap into the signal feeds. Short of a gut it may be difficult, but not impossible.
 
iamwiz82 said:
I'd skip the BSW. I do not think that anyone makes a harness for the e85/6 to tap into the signal feeds. Short of a gut it may be difficult, but not impossible.
Click to expand...


That really stinks... I was hoping for some sort of 'box' that would accept inputs from the factory head unit and give me outputs for speakers.

Like the other thread, I can't stand any of the current aftermarket headunits... Even alpines are goofy looking. I like the pioneer stage 4 and am willing to buy it if it will definitely work... but it's an expensive guess on whether or not that will actually sound good with 2 channel audio.. Plus it seems like WAY overkill. This isn't really a daily driver car for me, but when I do drive I want a decent stereo.

Obligatory pic:

i-jdBt52g-X3.jpg
 
Beautiful car. I hated them when they first came out, but the headlights grew on me and the coupe version looks amazing.

Why don't you just reflash the amp?

And is that your house??
 
Throckmorton said:
Beautiful car. I hated them when they first came out, but the headlights grew on me and the coupe version looks amazing.

Why don't you just reflash the amp?

And is that your house??
Click to expand...


Appreciate the compliment. I agree, I wasn't a huge fan........ until I saw one in person. Truly, pics do not really do not do justice the car. I view it as a work of art.

No, not my house.

Reflashing the amp is a consideration, but I plan on keeping this car a long time. Overall (based on home 2.1 vs 5.1/7.1 etc) I feel like I would enjoy a 2.1 setup and it would be worth the money.

i-J7PMRJr-X3.jpg




i-Z4FcS8h-X3.jpg
 
Can 2 speakers provide good sound in a small car like a Z4/Mini cooper?

My mini has a Harmon Kardon system with a proprietary amp that often fails, costing ~$600 to replace. If you want to replace the system, you gotta rip up the interior to rewire the rear speakers for a new head unit/amp. Otherwise just the front speakers will work.

I'd rather spend the $600 on a good set of front speakers rather than a used HK amp that can fail again at any time. I believe the rear speakers in a mini mostly provide bass, but could a decent set of fronts provide all I need?
 
I would think a 2.1 system in a small car would be ideal.

Music is recorded in a 2.0 format anyways, you do not need rear and center channels because there is no surround mixing on your typical music CD, only 2 channels. You should then just use a crossover at around 80 Hz for your subwoofer.
 
There are lots of older headunits that look good that you can pick up, Pioneer PRS800, PRS880, depends on what you want to spend and accomplish.

I really really think that you'd be happy with a very simple 2 channel + sub setup. Could be as simple as a 4 channel amp, back channels running a sub, some good component speakers in the front, and a decent headunit.
 
Insomniator said:
Can 2 speakers provide good sound in a small car like a Z4/Mini cooper?

My mini has a Harmon Kardon system with a proprietary amp that often fails, costing ~$600 to replace. If you want to replace the system, you gotta rip up the interior to rewire the rear speakers for a new head unit/amp. Otherwise just the front speakers will work.

I'd rather spend the $600 on a good set of front speakers rather than a used HK amp that can fail again at any time. I believe the rear speakers in a mini mostly provide bass, but could a decent set of fronts provide all I need?
Click to expand...

Not sure if you have an R56 or it's brethren, but I have the full Integral audio Soundstage plus subwoofer with the OEM HU and amp in place. Actually the amp is powering the rear speakers. I have an ARC audio amp hidden that runs the front 6 speakers plus the sub. Amazing stuff. I wish someone made a kit this beautiful for other BMW models to be honest.

I cannot say enough good things about the kit and installation.
 
FWIW, when I finally get a system in my 135i, it'll be from here: http://www.musicarnw.com/

*Very* knowledgeable guy w/ BMW specifically and installs in general. He's an old school guy witgh a lot of experience, that gets things done right the first time.
 
tracerbullet said:
FWIW, when I finally get a system in my 135i, it'll be from here: http://www.musicarnw.com/

*Very* knowledgeable guy w/ BMW specifically and installs in general. He's an old school guy witgh a lot of experience, that gets things done right the first time.
Click to expand...

Funny you mention them, I ordered a level 2 w/sub kit for my 335d 3 weeks ago and I haven't heard a single peep from them since. I have called w/ voicemails, emailed, PM'd them on bimmerpost, nada. I am very close to contacting my CC company about it. I would be VERY wary. People say that this is normal but IMHO that's f'ed up. If this is their customer service people should be steering clear.
 
Yikes. I've spoken w/ him at length, and know of a lot of first hand positive reviews, but haven't actually ordered myself.

Maybe something changed. Crap, I hope things work out for you and also hope there's nothing wrong on his end (out of business, in the hospital, etc.).

Umm, never mind the Musicarnw recommendation, at least for now.
 
tracerbullet said:
Yikes. I've spoken w/ him at length, and know of a lot of first hand positive reviews, but haven't actually ordered myself.

Maybe something changed. Crap, I hope things work out for you and there's nothing wrong on his end (out of business, in the hospital, etc.).
Click to expand...

He posted on Bimmperpost today, so... :|. A few more days and every time he posts I'll follow him and ask for a status update. I'm not asking for much other than an ETA. I dont need it now, just freaking talk to me. He was super responsive to me until I gave him my money. I swapped 15 emails back and forth within two days, and then silence.
 
Here's what I would do, if possible:

Remove the factory amp and all speakers except the kick, door and a-pillars. Use a single 4-channel amp to run the four door and kick speakers, and a two-channel amp to run the tweeters. Use something like this to handle frequency distribution to each amp. You'll have to play around with the crossover points to get it sounding perfect, but in general you'll send anything under, say 500hz to the 6" midbass, anything over that to the 4" in the door, up to around 8khz where you'd want it to go to your tweeters.

The best way to get the audio from your factory head unit though, isn't much of anything I can help with. I'd suggest a Line Output Converter, but they aren't going to give you the highest quality audio. Perhaps a BMW forum could help you with the pinout of the factory amp connector and you could build a cable to turn it into 3 sets of RCAs.
 
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