2 @ Rutgers Charged For Secret Sex Tape Of Another Student, Who Comitted Suicide

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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
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Comparing this to shoving someone and having that person kill themselves is an absurd argument, saying that these two kids aren't responsible for putting him in a situation where he felt like death was the answer lacks reason in my opinion.

I disagree. The odds of someone killing themselves over 1 shoving incident are pretty low, but what if it were one of a hundred? Which of those 100 people that shoved the kid should be charged with manslaughter? In the end, it comes down to the individual, and their own actions.

As a side note, I'd be interested in knowing what was on the video. It sounds like he was just kissing some guy, but they may have sanitized it for the press. If he was just kissing some guy, I could think of worse ways to to be outed, and suicide seems a bit extreme to me.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,461
996
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Agreed. While I think the guy was wrong for the undercover video, IMO, neither of them is in anyway responsible for the alleged suicide.

That's 100% on the "suicider."

Maybe criminally, but a civil suit would be another matter.
 

slayer202

Lifer
Nov 27, 2005
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you guys are fucking INSANE

my hypothetical situations show how your opinions are crazy so you dismiss them.

What happens if I rob someone. They have no money, the victim has a child who is sick and needs medical procedures, and they believe the only option they have is to resort to committing crimes. I'm responsible?

At the end of the day, the person committing suicide, which is not a normal thing to do, and usually its done by people who are fucked up in the head to begin with. How you think it is reasonable to blame someone for this is unfathomable...
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
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I disagree. The odds of someone killing themselves over 1 shoving incident are pretty low, but what if it were one of a hundred? Which of those 100 people that shoved the kid should be charged with manslaughter? In the end, it comes down to the individual, and their own actions.

As a side note, I'd be interested in knowing what was on the video. It sounds like he was just kissing some guy, but they may have sanitized it for the press. If he was just kissing some guy, I could think of worse ways to to be outed, and suicide seems a bit extreme to me.

again you're comparing apples to watermelons, shoving someone and changing someone's entire world in a split second are two vastly different things to do to someone.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
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The argument he's presenting is ridiculous and not at all like what happened in the story. This kid was probably still way deep in the closet, likely none of his friends or family knew. All of the sudden, here's this kid having sex with a man for all the world to see on the Internet.. is that how you'd want your friends and family to find out? This kid probably thought his only escape from this kind of shame was death. He was wrong of course, but that doesn't change his mentality.

That said, I don't think there's any legal standard to charge them with manslaughter or murder.. the kid acted on his own will at the end of the day. He wouldn't have done so, however, if not for the actions of the two people in the story. That is really the point here. Technically, they're not responsible for his death directly but indirectly you better believe they are the cause.

Comparing this to shoving someone and having that person kill themselves is an absurd argument, saying that these two kids aren't responsible for putting him in a situation where he felt like death was the answer lacks reason in my opinion.

It was not their fault that the kid was fragile, way deep in the closet, repressed, ashamed, etc. The perpetrators should be facing the same charges regardless of the choice of the guy to commit suicide, because they were the same actions.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,461
996
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It was in a dorm room they shared. He can say he left it on by mistake and caught his roommate doing the deed.

The guy who killed himself was an adult. It was his choice.

Except there is evidence of intent. Stupid college students thinking the internet isn't stored for eternity.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
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My perspective on this is obviously different, there are some things you just cant understand unless you go through them yourself. That's really all I can say about it. If you disagree that's your right, I couldn't give a fuck less if you think you're right or not.

All that matters here is that what happened to this kid is incredibly sad and I hope it never happens to anyone you're close to.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
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Except for the fact that many homosexuals desire-to-have, and raise children through different methods (adoptions, surrogates, etc.). An evolutionary biologist could have a very good explanation for the existence of homosexuality that doesn't involve any kind of defect.

that has nothing to do with passing on genes dude you're talking about shit that are human cultural adaptations that are relatively new
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,461
996
126
It was not their fault that the kid was fragile, way deep in the closet, repressed, ashamed, etc. The perpetrators should be facing the same charges regardless of the choice of the guy to commit suicide, because they were the same actions.

They are unlikely to be charged with any type of murder/manslaughter.
They can be sued for wrongful death.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,686
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that has nothing to do with passing on genes dude you're talking about shit that are human cultural adaptations that are relatively new

Yeah, because you never see wild animals adopt babies and raise them as their own.
 

thepd7

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2005
9,423
0
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uhhhhh no. the suicide was the kid's choice 100%. can't blame it on anyone else. the webcam kid's action didn't directly cause the suicide


How is it manslaugther if the crime and suicide are completely seperated, not directly connected. the suicide was a seperate decision and didn't have to happen...

Consider my earlier scenario, a getaway driver in an armed robbery. The getaway driver did not kill anyone, the person robbing the bank did. That's a separate decision, how can you charge the getaway driver with a crime he didn't commit!

Any rebuttal?

They are unlikely to be charged with any type of murder/manslaughter.
They can be sued for wrongful death.

We'll see, even the mom who berated a kid on myspace that killed herself went through a grand jury (and I believe a trial).
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,960
8,204
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Yeah, because you never see wild animals adopt babies and raise them as their own.

So let me get this straight. Homosexuality is actually an evolution through the process of gene selection so there'll be a whole class of humans available to adopt babies. Did I get that right?

Dude, that's a fuckin' stretch and a half. You make Scientologists look absolutely logical by comparison.
 

slayer202

Lifer
Nov 27, 2005
13,679
119
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Consider my earlier scenario, a getaway driver in an armed robbery. The getaway driver did not kill anyone, the person robbing the bank did. That's a separate decision, how can you charge the getaway driver with a crime he didn't commit!

Any rebuttal?

the getaway driver was a willing part in the crime that directly caused someone to be killed. its completely different. the law is meant to punish all of the criminals for the death, because they caused the death with their actions.

in this case, the kid killing himself has nothing to do with the previous crime. the crime is the same no matter what the kid does. you can't punish the same crime differently, thats not how the law works
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,461
996
126
Consider my earlier scenario, a getaway driver in an armed robbery. The getaway driver did not kill anyone, the person robbing the bank did. That's a separate decision, how can you charge the getaway driver with a crime he didn't commit!

Any rebuttal?



We'll see, even the mom who berated a kid on myspace that killed herself went through a grand jury (and I believe a trial).

She was never indicted or brought to trial for murder or manslaughter. The Feds were on a fishing expedition and indicated her under Computer Fraud and Abuse statutes.

The Feds case was she falsified information on her myspace account which violated myspace's tos. They tried to say that was a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse statute. Fortunately the appellate courts threw out her conviction. If they didn't that would means 99&#37; of the people on this forum and the internet would be serving in jail for violating the terms of service by falsifying personal information.

Again, what they are already charged with is what they will be charged with. Wrongful death suit is possible, but unless the kids have money, its pointless.
 

CottonRabbit

Golden Member
Apr 28, 2005
1,026
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that has nothing to do with passing on genes dude you're talking about shit that are human cultural adaptations that are relatively new

Actually, you should read up on kin selection. An individual does not have to mate directly to be fit in the Darwinian sense. I'm not saying that kin selection is the evolutionary explanation for homosexuality, but evolution is more complex than just sex.

wiki
Nature article
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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People on here are bullshit.

"the suicide was on him 100&#37;"

my fucking ass.

These kids are responsible for leading this person to committing suicide.
Slippery slope, my friend. People off themselves all the time after a relationship or marriage goes bad, after losing a job or promotion, after any and every sort of emotional and psychological stressor (whether they brought it on themselves or not).

Do we prosecute the boss for firing them? Do we start throwing people in jail for breaking up with an unstable or fragile SO (whether or not they were aware of how fragile or unstable they were)? Do we imprison the admissions people who reject someone's application to a prestigious school?

I can think of a hundred more....
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,140
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Commit a crime. That woud be the line, so my original statement was wrong.

So say you get pick-pocketed, or hell lets go even more ridiculous and say somebody picked up your cellphone from a shelf at wal-mart where you left it, and didn't return it. You blow your brains out over it, and the guy who picked up the phone should be charged with killing you? That's complete bullshit and you know it.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
0
0
Actually, you should read up on kin selection. An individual does not have to mate directly to be fit in the Darwinian sense. I'm not saying that kin selection is the evolutionary explanation for homosexuality, but evolution is more complex than just sex.

wiki
Nature article

You're right, but blackjack is just grasping at straws right now.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,686
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the getaway driver was a willing part in the crime that directly caused someone to be killed. its completely different. the law is meant to punish all of the criminals for the death, because they caused the death with their actions.

in this case, the kid killing himself has nothing to do with the previous crime. the crime is the same no matter what the kid does. you can't punish the same crime differently, thats not how the law works

I'll let that stand on it's own. If you think that the crime was not a factor in the suicide, I will not argue any further.

So say you get pick-pocketed, or hell lets go even more ridiculous and say somebody picked up your cellphone from a shelf at wal-mart where you left it, and didn't return it. You blow your brains out over it, and the guy who picked up the phone should be charged with killing you? That's complete bullshit and you know it.

Straw man. I never said that.

You're right, but blackjack is just grasping at straws right now.

Oh yeah?

Some scholars have suggested that homosexuality is adaptive in a non-obvious way. By way of analogy, the allele (a particular version of a gene) which causes sickle-cell anemia when two copies are present may also confer resistance to malaria with a lesser form of anemia when one copy is present (this is called heterozygous advantage)

The so-called "gay uncle" hypothesis posits that people who themselves do not have children may nonetheless increase the prevalence of their family's genes in future generations by providing resources (food, supervision, defense, shelter, etc.) to the offspring of their closest relatives. This hypothesis is an extension of the theory of kin selection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

Yeah, people in here are calling homosexuals "defective", but I'm the one grasping at straws. Why don't you see if they float and burn them while you're at it.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
0
0
I'll let that stand on it's own. If you think that the crime was not a factor in the suicide, I will not argue any further.

Straw man. I never said that.

Oh yeah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

Yeah, people in here are calling homosexuals "defective", but I'm the one grasping at straws. Why don't you see if they float and burn them while you're at it.

again, more strawmen.

who are you arguing with? because it obviously doesn't seem to be me. I am making a distinction between being biological 'defective' vs regarding homosexuality as a mental defect. Furthermore, I've already commented that homosexuality may have some other underpinnings, but I would bet homosexuality is an unintended consequence, not the actual adaptation that makes it persist as much as it has til now.

It may just be the case that sexuality is more fluid than we think, and things just end up being wired incorrectly, with no actual darwinian benefit.

you seem to have some emotional, personal stake in this argument. I'm arguing from a detached scientific perspective, and I have no will or want to see homosexuals (as much as I do any other human being) harmed or hurt. You might want to step back a little and see things a little more objectively. maybe try to parse the arguments a bit, eh?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,686
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again, more strawmen.

who are you arguing with? because it obviously doesn't seem to be me. I am making a distinction between being biological 'defective' vs regarding homosexuality as a mental defect. Furthermore, I've already commented that homosexuality may have some other underpinnings, but I would bet homosexuality is an unintended consequence, not the actual adaptation that makes it persist as much as it has til now.

It may just be the case that sexuality is more fluid than we think, and things just end up being wired incorrectly, with no actual darwinian benefit.

you seem to have some emotional, personal stake in this argument. I'm arguing from a detached scientific perspective, and I have no will or want to see homosexuals (as much as I do any other human being) harmed or hurt. You might want to step back a little and see things a little more objectively. maybe try to parse the arguments a bit, eh?

Whatever the natural, biological underpinning of homosexuality may be, it seems pretty unlikely that it is serving the same purpose today that it did when it first emerged. It is not a defect because there is no physiological detriment. You pointed to the reduced likelihood of reproduction, but again, whatever the impact to reproduction may have been, it is certainly no barrier today.

Most biologists seem to think that homosexuality has existed in nature far too long to be the result of something that is simply "wired incorrectly". Also, if that were the case it seems likely that we would be able to reverse the incorrect wiring with psychotherapeutic drugs, like we do with bi-polar disorder or severe depression.

As for my "emotional, personal stake in this argument" I do not apologize for getting irritated when I hear gay people called "defective", nor do I apologize for getting irritated at suggestions that the victim in this particular story made a decision to kill himself that was unrelated to his web-cam humiliation.

That said, I still try to make good arguments. Maybe instead of pretending to be some dispassioned, perfectly rational scientific thinker, could examine your own personal feelings and consider how they might color your own interpretations.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
0
0
Whatever the natural, biological underpinning of homosexuality may be, it seems pretty unlikely that it is serving the same purpose today that it did when it first emerged. It is not a defect because there is no physiological detriment. You pointed to the reduced likelihood of reproduction, but again, whatever the impact to reproduction may have been, it is certainly no barrier today.

Most biologists seem to think that homosexuality has existed in nature far too long to be the result of something that is simply "wired incorrectly". Also, if that were the case it seems likely that we would be able to reverse the incorrect wiring with psychotherapeutic drugs, like we do with bi-polar disorder or severe depression.

As for my "emotional, personal stake in this argument" I do not apologize for getting irritated when I hear gay people called "defective", nor do I apologize for getting irritated at suggestions that the victim in this particular story made a decision to kill himself that was unrelated to his web-cam humiliation.

That said, I still try to make good arguments. Maybe instead of pretending to be some dispassioned, perfectly rational scientific thinker, could examine your own personal feelings and consider how they might color your own interpretations.

Why question my rationality? You're the one associating biological defectiveness with maiming, torturing and murdering human beings...

It seems like we're essentially saying the same thing, except I think that homosexuality is more likely an unintended consequence of some underpinning adaptation in the brain, rather than the intended consequence, or that homosexuality confers some sort of advantage in passing genes. If there was a good way to show it does, then I'd acquiesce to the evidence, but it doesn't seem like there is any.

If my premise is true, then yeah, homosexuality could be considered a defect. However, it would be a mistake to extrapolate that label into something more (ie homosexuals are less than human blah blah..). It seems pretty obvious to me apart from sexual orientation homosexuals just as different as individuals as everyone else.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
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the kid who committed suicide was a member of another forum I post at (and posted about the incident)... regardless of how retarded suicide is, it's pretty sad.
 

FleshLight

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2004
6,883
0
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Can someone post some damn pics of the asian chick? That's all I cared about after reading the OP.