2% of incumbents unseated in federal primaries, America safe from revolution

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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I was wondering if anyone was going to make the link between today and how Clinton also had a fairly poor first term. And in other news, American values and ideologies have barely budged, but cable news pundits have gotten a lot shriller.

National Post - Dan Gardner: Stop talking about a revolution. America hasn’t changed in 25 years

Anyone following the American media knows that Americans are in an uproar. Disgust with the federal government is worse than ever. Extremist political views are spreading rapidly. The Tea Party movement has become a massive populist revolt. President Barack Obama’s approval rating has collapsed. Incumbents are terrified they will be swept away in the November mid-term elections. Washington insiders tremble.

It’s nothing less than a revolution.

But what you probably don’t know is that 418 sitting members of Congress sought their party’s nomination to run in the November election. (In the U.S. system, these primary races are often the toughest fights.) Of those 418 incumbents, a grand total of seven lost. That’s less than 2%.

So almost every incumbent who sought a nomination got it — and even that extraordinary fact doesn’t tell the full story. “If one looks at the seven cases where an incumbent was defeated,” says Michael J. Robinson, a political scientist retired from George Washington University, “it had nothing to do with the Tea Party movement, nothing to do with ideological shifts. It had to do with scandal, or people switching parties in the middle of their term in office.”

...

In a new report for the Pew Research Center, Robinson surveyed the numbers and came to a conclusion that is simultaneously startling and reassuring. “I’m sure Canadians are now totally convinced that America is going to hell in a handbasket,” Robinson says with a laugh. “But in terms of politics, the centre is holding. There have been no basic changes in American political values, or party identification, or ideology, in the last 25 years.”

Robinson is not exaggerating. He really means “no changes.”

On 33 questions about underlying political values, “there is a shift of 6% for all the values combined” over a period of 22 years, Robinson notes. Four of those six percentage points show a shift to the left. Two come from a shift to the right. Subtract two per cent from four per cent and you wind up with a net shift (of two percentage points) in the direction of liberalism over 22 years.” Which is to say, there was essentially no change at all.

Party identification? In 1987, Democrats had a nine-point advantage over Republicans. Today, the Democrats have an eight-point lead.

To look at ideology, Robinson turned to the General Social Survey, which asks people to place themselves on a seven-point scale where “one” means “extremely liberal” and “seven” is “extremely conservative.” In 1987, Americans overwhelmingly put themselves smack in the middle. Today, it’s the same. “The most liberal we have ever been on this survey is a 4.0, which is dead centre, and the most conservative we have been is 4.25,” Robinson says. On a chart, the trend line is so flat “it looks like the EKG of somebody who is dead.”

As for polarization at the extremes, Robinson notes that in 1987 3% of Americans considered themselves extremely liberal and 3% said they were extremely conservative. “So that’s 6% willing to acknowledge they are, to use the term currently used in the United States, ‘wingnuts,’” Robinson chuckles. “What’s the percentage of wingnuts in the United States today? Four percent for extremely conservative, which is an increase of one percentage point. And for liberals, it’s 3%. So we’ve gone from 6% wingnuts to 7% wingnuts in the course of 22 years.”

The big story in the United States isn’t populist anger or the Tea Party, Robinson insists. Unemployment is almost 10%. The economy is sickly. Consumers are underwater. Deficits are mounting. The U.S. is bogged down in seemingly futile wars. But despite all this, Robinson notes, “we have had almost no social disorder in America and we’ve had almost no political violence.” And most Americans seem content to return Congressional incumbents to Washington.

Even the President isn’t doing that badly, given the circumstances. Obama’s approval rating of about 46% is actually equal to, or a little above, the approval ratings of Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan at a similar point in their first terms.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Meaning, despite everyone's bitching, it's business as usual in DC. This country is in for a rude awakening when we find out that politicians can't fix this.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
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So, would a fair translation be: "Nothing's changed, except more people are Louder, and Stupider...", yah?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Meaning, despite everyone's bitching, it's business as usual in DC. This country is in for a rude awakening when we find out that politicians can't fix this.

Up here in Toronto we're very likely to elect a new mayor who's known to be a bit of a dim lightbulb but is an absolute pitbull when it comes to cutting city costs and getting government out of the way of private citizens. He's an incredibly divisive figure but quite possibly what the city needs right now. I reckon you folks could use the same.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
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Up here in Toronto we're very likely to elect a new mayor who's known to be a bit of a dim lightbulb but is an absolute pitbull when it comes to cutting city costs and getting government out of the way of private citizens. He's an incredibly divisive figure but quite possibly what the city needs right now. I reckon you folks could use the same.

The problem with Rob Ford is the same as the Tea Party - that is, he has successfully tapped into some real anger and frustration, yet is utterly clueless on how to fix anything.

I don't want to derail your thread too much, but look at his transportation plan - he wants to reduce congestion by replacing streetcars with busses and getting rid of a few bike lanes and replacing them with more cars. Our population is growing (despite his idiotic anti-immigration views) and our streets stay the same - the only way to reduce congestion is to get people moving more efficiently (bikes, public transport, etc) and more single occupant cars in narrow downtown streets is about the most inefficient way to get around imaginable.

So yeah, I'm sure we'll see him as mayor, just as I am sure we'll see all the downsides like his buffoonery and petty attacks on various festivals, without seeing any positive changes. Ottawa elected someone like him and they were also bitterly disappointed.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ning-from-your-ottawa-cousins/article1738886/
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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2% of incumbents unseated in federal primaries, America safe from revolution

^ That doesn't say much either way, most incumbants are democrats.

let's wait and see until after we know who is elected.

So almost every incumbent who sought a nomination got it — and even that extraordinary fact doesn’t tell the full story. “If one looks at the seven cases where an incumbent was defeated,” says Michael J. Robinson, a political scientist retired from George Washington University, “it had nothing to do with the Tea Party movement, nothing to do with ideological shifts. It had to do with scandal, or people switching parties in the middle of their term in office.”

^ I think he's wrong. IIRC, Miller defeated Murkowski and it had nothing to do with any scandal etc.

Fern
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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^ That doesn't say much either way, most incumbants are democrats.

let's wait and see until after we know who is elected.



^ I think he's wrong. IIRC, Miller defeated Murkowski and it had nothing to do with any scandal etc.

Fern

I think the thrust of the article is essentially correct, even if there is an exception or two out there. And the real thrust is - there has been no real ideological shift in America in the last 20 years.

The outcome of this election isn't about ideology. It's about the incumbent party being punished for a bad economy. Wait? Which election am I talking about, 2008 or the one coming up in November? Same difference.

- wolf
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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^ I think he's wrong. IIRC, Miller defeated Murkowski and it had nothing to do with any scandal etc.

Fern

That sounds right. The Tea Party has had a real impact on Republicans in the primaries.

It's up to the broader election to 'throw out the trash' and not elect these radical nuts.

It's bad for the country that they can win the Republican primaries, that we have that many disastrous voters showing the weakness of American values today assaulted by the right.

Wolfe is right too though, this isn't new - these same people existed before, I remember the bumper stickers (on Republican Congressmen's cars) about 'arms against government tyranny' nonsense.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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That sounds right. The Tea Party has had a real impact on Republicans in the primaries.

It's up to the broader election to 'throw out the trash' and not elect these radical nuts.

It's bad for the country that they can win the Republican primaries, that we have that many disastrous voters showing the weakness of American values today assaulted by the right.

Wolfe is right too though, this isn't new - these same people existed before, I remember the bumper stickers (on Republican Congressmen's cars) about 'arms against government tyranny' nonsense.

People forget, but Clinton was referred to as a commy and a socialist routinely by the right, and his healthcare plan was called socialized medicine. The same was said about Medicare under Johnson. The irony is that many conservatives now say that Clinton was OK. It's always the dem who is currently in office who is the Stalinist devil.

I think another important point about the so-called "tea party" candidates which goes with the OP's article is that they are no real "change" at all. With the exception of perhaps Rand Paul, they are not libertarians, but traditional conservatives with a far right social agenda. They are nothing more than the GOP platform on steriods. Some of them are mad at the GOP for not being conservative enough. Yet the article cites polling which shows no real ideological shift in America for 20 years so why all this sudden attentionf for the tea party? Because people are being duped. The "tea party" is nothing more than the right wing of the republican party taking advantage of voter dissatisfaction over the economy, and duping people into thinking they represent something different than the GOP when in fact they are more of the same, a LOT more of the same.

- wolf
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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This article is a huge non sequitur....

BTW, 418 members of Congress? Seriously?

418 who sought the nomination of their party. Some retired and also 2/3's of the Senate is not up for re-election.

How can the article be a "non sequitur" by the way? It was the topic of the OP...

- wolf
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Considering that there is almost no chance of going up against the party machine, I'm not surprised. New blood isn't desired.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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Considering that there is almost no chance of going up against the party machine, I'm not surprised. New blood isn't desired.

Why should we make a violent ideological shift in one direction or the other because we are dissatisfied with current elected officials? If we have elected people who are incompetent and/or corrupt, then we need to throw them out and elect people who are competent and non-corrupt. What we do not need is alternatives who are all ideoligally way off center. That is the problem with those dissatisfied with the status quo championing third parties. Most of those people are way off kilter.

- wolf
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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418 who sought the nomination of their party. Some retired and also 2/3's of the Senate is not up for re-election.

How can the article be a "non sequitur" by the way? It was the topic of the OP...

- wolf

It's a non sequitur because the whole point of the revolution is that Republicans have rebranded themselves as revolutionaries.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Why should we make a violent ideological shift in one direction or the other because we are dissatisfied with current elected officials? If we have elected people who are incompetent and/or corrupt, then we need to throw them out and elect people who are competent and non-corrupt. What we do not need is alternatives who are all ideoligally way off center. That is the problem with those dissatisfied with the status quo championing third parties. Most of those people are way off kilter.

- wolf

There aren't competent people who aren't "way off center"? We recycle the same party line over and over with no new ideas welcome?

Here is what passes for acceptable today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/nyregion/15rangel.html

A lot of happy faces in that pic.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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The problem with Rob Ford is the same as the Tea Party - that is, he has successfully tapped into some real anger and frustration, yet is utterly clueless on how to fix anything.

I don't want to derail your thread too much, but look at his transportation plan - he wants to reduce congestion by replacing streetcars with busses and getting rid of a few bike lanes and replacing them with more cars. Our population is growing (despite his idiotic anti-immigration views) and our streets stay the same - the only way to reduce congestion is to get people moving more efficiently (bikes, public transport, etc) and more single occupant cars in narrow downtown streets is about the most inefficient way to get around imaginable.

So yeah, I'm sure we'll see him as mayor, just as I am sure we'll see all the downsides like his buffoonery and petty attacks on various festivals, without seeing any positive changes. Ottawa elected someone like him and they were also bitterly disappointed.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ning-from-your-ottawa-cousins/article1738886/

Eh, I'm not a big fan (I liken him to Governor Jessa Ventura) but I think he's got a couple of things right, including one of the examples you've given.

Streetcars on King, Queen, Carlton, Parliament or any other road they don't have their own right of way do nothing but jam up traffic. When they occasionally run a King or Queen bus to take extra capacity I jump on those and marvel at how much faster it gets me where I'm going in comparison to the streetcar - sometimes literally weaving around two or three of them. And of course buses don't stop both lanes because they can pull to the right. If we're locked into that new streetcar purchase I'd go ahead and use them on Spadina, Queens Quay and St. Clair, but otherwise, yeah, I'd love to see them replaced.

I've also not seen him be unreasonable on the arts. Reading this about his position at an arts-focused debate made me realize not only is his position reasonable, but that it's a rare and useful trait for a politician to refuse to pander to the crowd.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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There aren't competent people who aren't "way off center"? We recycle the same party line over and over with no new ideas welcome?

Here is what passes for acceptable today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/nyregion/15rangel.html

A lot of happy faces in that pic.

New ideas are great if we're talking about creativity and innovation, but when we're talking about third parties in the U.S., we aren't talking about new ideas. We're talking about taking the exact same existing paradigms and moving them to the extremes.

Good luck with that.

- wolf
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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New ideas are great if we're talking about creativity and innovation, but when we're talking about third parties in the U.S., we aren't talking about new ideas. We're talking about taking the exact same existing paradigms and moving them to the extremes.

Good luck with that.

- wolf

I find that extremely frustrating. When we look at the Congressional approval ratings, neither party is held in high regard by the majority of people yet the system virtually guarantees that we reinstall the same representatives. I suppose my point is more of a lamentation than anything else. I know how it works, yet I cannot keep from feeling unhappy with the status quo.

The alternative? Sarah Palin.

I believe you are Jewish. Maybe you can read and understand this. it connects with me and how I feel our land is becoming.


I think I have this right.
ב נַחֲלָתֵנוּ נֶהֶפְכָה לְזָרִים, בָּתֵּינוּ לְנָכְרִים.
ג יְתוֹמִים הָיִינוּ אין (וְאֵין) אָב, אִמֹּתֵינוּ כְּאַלְמָנוֹת.
ד מֵימֵינוּ בְּכֶסֶף שָׁתִינוּ, עֵצֵינוּ בִּמְחִיר יָבֹאוּ.
ה עַל צַוָּארֵנוּ נִרְדָּפְנוּ, יָגַעְנוּ לא (וְלֹא) הוּנַח-לָנוּ.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
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To look at ideology, Robinson turned to the General Social Survey, which asks people to place themselves on a seven-point scale where “one” means “extremely liberal” and “seven” is “extremely conservative.” In 1987, Americans overwhelmingly put themselves smack in the middle. Today, it’s the same. “The most liberal we have ever been on this survey is a 4.0, which is dead centre, and the most conservative we have been is 4.25,” Robinson says. On a chart, the trend line is so flat “it looks like the EKG of somebody who is dead.”
Actually it's more like an EKG administered by a tech who hooked up the sensors to the floor instead of the patient. If you want meaningful insight into political ideology, it's better to use questions that actually have meaning rather than the false dichotomy promulgated by the media and the RNC/DNC marketing buffoons.

The problem is that political attitudes exist in a high dimensional space. When this space is collapsed onto a single axis which is chosen a priori rather than adaptively, the most reasonable expectation is that the single axis won't show any dramatic changes. It is dangerous to draw any inferences about the underlying data from this lack of apparent movement; the best inference (if you absolutely have to make one based on such a poorly framed "study") is that the chosen axis is a poor diagnostic tool.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
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I agree with your assessment the survey's questions are very likely flawed.

You could also interpret the same passage:

To look at ideology, Robinson turned to the General Social Survey, which asks people to place themselves on a seven-point scale where “one” means “extremely liberal” and “seven” is “extremely conservative.” In 1987, Americans overwhelmingly put themselves smack in the middle. Today, it’s the same. “The most liberal we have ever been on this survey is a 4.0, which is dead centre, and the most conservative we have been is 4.25,” Robinson says. On a chart, the trend line is so flat “it looks like the EKG of somebody who is dead.”

...as .."they're all a bunch of thieves fucking up my country while shoving their hands ever deeper into my pocket. I don't like any of them. But I picked the center because the survey doesn't allow "none of the above", which would clearly be a better choice..."



Something based on a premise like http://www.politicalcompass.org/ would be far more accurate and informative.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
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I remember a study/news articles from back in the 1980s that incumbancy in the US House of Representatives was more assured than in USSR's Politiboro (which was a one party system where the party designated the "candidates"). Not a whole lot has changed since then-in the USA, that is.

I lay a lot of the blame upon gerrymandering.

BTW, I live in one of the few Congressional districts that frequently changes parties. It probably won't this year, we have a very effective, well-liked & hard working Representative who actually responds to people. I've emailed him a few times in the past on issues and he has always emailed back with specific reasons why he was taking the position he was-even when it disagreed with my thoughts. The ONLY politician I've ever dealt with that did that.
 

KGB

Diamond Member
May 11, 2000
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0
Pending the results from the general elections, ... I read this as "Throw out all the douchebags in Washington EXCEPT MY douchebag!! He's / she's okay but all the rest are assholes."
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,103
10,422
136
2% of incumbents unseated in federal primaries, America safe from revolution

That is sad. We needed more incumbents to be removed.

Safe from revolution? You must be confused. The statistic means we are 'safe' from achieving a peaceful revolution, which means a violent one is all the more likely.