2 low end subs or 1 semi-low end sub

ajtyeh

Golden Member
Feb 9, 2006
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My setup

Denon AVR-790
Energy Classics Take 5
LG42LH40
Polk Audio PSW110

I went to costco and finally saw the Energy ESW-8HG everyone was talking about on slickdeal forums here and there.

So my question is this. Do i use my dual subs Polk Audio PSW110+ Energy ESW-8HG (125+110) ($235 value)?

Or do i get a semi-low end sub around $200 dollar value.somethign like the BIC Vk-12. that runs for (255-10% bing so aroudn 220ish)

http://www.meijer.com/s/bic-america-...fer/_/R-143973

I only play movies on my setup and tv, i dont listen to much music. I want boom boom boom.
 

kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
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If you're not in a hurry, then I'd recommend the Bic F12 for $182 shipped here. There's a big thread on slickdeals about it and a big avsforum thread here. It seems that it's taking a month or two to get it, but those who've gotten it say that it's worth it. It's similar to the Bic you mentioned but quite a bit less expensive if you have to pay tax and shipping at Meijer and not at BLT.

I agree with vi edit. 8" and boom shouldn't be used in the same sentence unless the words "lack thereof" are thrown in there :). I like his suggestion as well if you need something right away.
 

ajtyeh

Golden Member
Feb 9, 2006
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yea im thinking about the bic f12 for 182 or the h100 for 212ish. or the vk-12 if i can get it with free shipping. thanks for the answers
 

kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
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What's your room size? If it's a very large room, then you'll likely benefit from dual subs. I'm not saying that a small room won't benefit from dual subs, but some see dual subs as a requirement in really large rooms. Also, if it's a really small room, then dual subs might not work very well.

While the PSW110 isn't a great sub, it's not an 8" HTIB sub either. Unless you could sell it locally, you'd probably net about $50 from the sale, and I don't think that's worth it at all.

Since you already have a sub, I recommend ordering that F12 from BLT even if it takes a couple months to get it. It's really hard to match that quality at that price range. If you step up into the $300+ range, then you get a whole new list of subs from which to choose, but it doesn't sound like you want to spend that much.
 

kgokal

Senior member
Jul 20, 2004
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What about the Polk PSW110 + F12?

I want to get it, but been running dual-subs for a while, both 8" :(
 

kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,628
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What about the Polk PSW110 + F12?

I want to get it, but been running dual-subs for a while, both 8" :(

What subs do you currently have, and what's your budget? If you have two really crappy subs, you might be better served by putting all the money into one sub. I only mentioned the PSW110 + F12, because the OP already has the PSW110, and I don't think it's worth it to sell it. I would recommend spending your whole budget on one good sub and possibly using one of your 8" subs (if it's decent) as a second sub.
 

klocwerk

Senior member
Oct 23, 2003
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I'd never recommend dual subs in a residential installation. You'll have cancellation issues out the wazoo as you move about the room. The only time I'd ever suggest dual subs is if you have a single listening position, which isn't realistic for 99% of us.

Get a single, better sub.
 

kgokal

Senior member
Jul 20, 2004
423
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What subs do you currently have, and what's your budget? If you have two really crappy subs, you might be better served by putting all the money into one sub. I only mentioned the PSW110 + F12, because the OP already has the PSW110, and I don't think it's worth it to sell it. I would recommend spending your whole budget on one good sub and possibly using one of your 8" subs (if it's decent) as a second sub.

I miss spoke. I have 2 subs right now, both 8" one is 50W rms, and the other is 120W Peak.
So they are pretty low-end.... even more then the PSW110 w/ is 60W RMS.

So i'd probably just use on F12, if i can get wife to approve purchase :(
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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Here's the deal. Adding up multiple low end subs doesn't add any extension to your output. It only increases output they are capable of, lowers distorion and can eliminate any dead spots in the room.

If you want something that digs deep and has meaningful output at that depth then you need something that can displace siginificant air. A cheap 8" sub isn't going to do it. A couple cheap 8" subs aren't going to do it. Even a cheap 10" or low end 12" with a 8" partner won't do it.

You need a sub that has a large driver(s) power to move it, and a cabinet size that allows it to do it's job well.

For $250-$300 you could go the DIY route and build a 12" or 15" ported sub with a 250w plate amp that will stomp the 8"/10"/12" polks and the 12" BIC. If you want boom on the cheap that's probably your best bet.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,209
537
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I'm currently running dual 10" subs and dual 8" subs. klocwerk is correct in that you have to be very careful of room placement in order to not create cancellations when running more than one sub. Typically you need subs with a lot more control of their phase as well as crossovers (especially when running multiple different sized subs, you will want to send the full signal to the sub(s) which dig down the lowest and have it do either an internal crossover so that it sends the high frequencies to the next highest sub(s), and so on, so forth; or you want to use an external variable crossover which will take a single input and has multiple outputs for the different frequency ranges that you want your particular subs to cover).

You will also need to do extensive phase alignment, and placement testing to remove room nulls. This will take a while to do and in many times, results in the subs needing to be in places that certain other household members may not like (ie, not up against the wall or in a corner).
 

ajtyeh

Golden Member
Feb 9, 2006
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i will return my energy sub, i just bought it from costco this week. and get a BIC F12
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
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With subwoofers, it is important to set them up correctly. A rudimentary understanding of wave physics can help tremendously in realizing a good setup. Keeping the listening position away from extreme energy zones of a room is paramount to excellent sound quality. Such energy zones exist at room walls, corners, and even fractions of the dimensions of the room (1/2, 1/4).

Setting up a subwoofer in the corners of the room offers, generally, the most boost to a subwoofer's response because the tri-corner of a room is the highest energy zone for bass. This placement causes all 3 room modes associated with the room's height, width, and length to be fully energized causing a significant boost in output for these 3 frequencies and some of their harmonics. The flip side to this arrangement is that modal ringing at these frequencies is worsened and this results in one-note bass (or 3-note bass) where many of the bass tones are hard to hear, and other singular tones stick out and hang around. Of course, setting up subwoofers in each of the 4 corners will ameliorate this problem as discussed below...

By placing a subwoofer mid-wall, you are minimizing the room gain to the subwoofer since these are lower energy zones. This placement, while decreasing the apparent output of the subwoofer, actually helps to stabilize the energy within the room so that there is less one-note bass since less room modes are energized.

Setting up multiple subwoofers within the room to optimize based on the energy within the room has been done both theoretically and experimentally. One such method is known in some circles as the Harmon method and the following link does a great job at describing the phenomena better. http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurComp...hip/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

Every room is different and there are some proponents of room setups where the subwoofers are placed to maximize the output while also achieving linear frequency response. This is known in some circles as the Geddes' method, but requires far more guess and check. http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Personally, I tend to prefer the Harmon method because it requires far less guess and check.

If you cannot optimize the placement of subwoofers, then one subwoofer is damaging enough. If you can optimize the placement of subwoofers acoustically, then 2 subwoofers presents a good possibility as shown in the Harmon presentation linked above (setup #6). For 3 subwoofers, you can try the Geddes method, although it requires guess and check (measurements and data analysis). For 4 subwoofers, you can go back and try the Harmon Method etc.

Some notes:
1. Multiple lesser subs setup correctly may get you closer to the best response that the lesser subwoofer can offer in the ideal setup.

2. Single better subs setup correctly will get you deeper frequency response not possible with lesser subwoofers, more bass power that is not possible with lesser subwoofers, but at the cost of less frequency linearity due to the room modes not being canceled out by mulitple subwoofers.

3. Mix and match subwoofers: Do the Geddes Method. The best subwoofer gets the corner spot because its strengths are amplified. The rest of the subwoofers basically act as carefully placed phase canceling "instruments" that help to fill in nulls caused by the corner subwoofer due to its room placement. This requires guess and check (and many hours of experimentation).


Personally, I've tried all of the above. I've settled on a compromise between the Harman and Geddes method while using very high quality subwoofers. This compromise was taken because of the physical limitations of the room (not being a closed shoe-box dimensioned rectangular prism).
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
get 1 sub. If you really want to go balls wild with subs then get 4 total and run 3 of them as extensions for the l c r but you need to get that room tuned to make it correct.

If you do that then you need to float the floor and put 703 all over it.
 

klocwerk

Senior member
Oct 23, 2003
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I know what cancellation. I want to see it happen in a room.
Sure, you can place two subs so that they interact perfectly at 40hz and you have no dead spots. What happens at 53hz? or 71hz? You have all new and exciting dead spots and hot spots in your room.

If you want to SEE it happen, fill a room with smoke and run two subs at the same frequency. You'll literally see the high pressure spots versus the low pressure spots. Or click here for an applet showing a pair of oscillating point sources in a box: http://www.falstad.com/wavebox/

My point is that for ~95% of installations you're not going to be able to perfectly place the listener OR the subs, and you're introducing a second set of potential issues. With a single sub you just have to worry about boundary cancellation, but with two subs you introduce phase cancellation, doubling the complexity of the equation.

Edit to add: check out Bill Fitzmaurice's post on the topic (for live sound reinforcement) here: http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=398
 
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Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
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Not everyone is a "sub-o-phile". I can hear many subtle differences in the speakers, but I have never been willing to pay similarly for higher end subs. If I was buying one today, I'd probably get something like the low end HSU. As it is, I have the BIC H100 and have never felt I was missing anything, even after hearing some higher end units.

I do prefer hearing the lower extension, so I'm glad I went with a 12" sub.
 

simonizor

Golden Member
Feb 8, 2010
1,312
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I don't think I've ever seen someone with a home theater setup that had two subwoofers. Unless you have a ginourmous room, there's really no need for it. One mid range sub would sound much better than two low end subs anyways.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,205
45
91
After reading a lot about subwoofer placement and theories behind placement, I ended up deciding to throw a decent amount of money at the problem. I have two subwoofers placed mid-wall at the front and back of the room. I have the room pretty heavily treated with Owens-Corning 703 rigid fiberglass. Having been won over by Audyssey, I bought an SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer equalizer to smooth out the response and deal with phase issues.

I'm quite happy with the result and documented my experience here (including before / after measurements)
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=327056

In the past, even with a crossover of 80Hz, I found that I could pretty easily tell where bass was coming from unless the subwoofer was directly in front or behind me. With limited placement options at my previous place, that was my main reason for getting the second sub. It helped with the localization problem, but I never felt like I really got things how I wanted them with the adjustments I made on my own. Based on some basic measurements and my ears, the dual subs seemed to help smooth things out at various seating positions, but I wasn't confident that I really had things right, especially with phase adjustments.

In this new place, I feel like I have things how I want them. Bass at different seating positions has been consistently good, and I feel like my subs are performing to their full potential.

I don't know how applicable this is to the OP, but I thought I'd throw in my own experience.