2.1 Speaker connection question

[scootermaster]

So, most of the subs I looked at (HSU STF-2, most notably) had speaker level ins AND outs. This is important because the receiver I'm using to power my setup doesn't have a dedicated LFE/sub out. Fast forward to me eagerly waiting a month for my eD A3S-250 annnnnnd....

Not speaker level outs.

Oops.

So, I did the old "twist the bookshelf cables and receiver cables in to one copper connector and put it in the posts on the sub" trick. It works, in that I get sound from all the speakers, but is this really an accepted solution? Are there any downsides to doing this? Obviously if I had a better receiver/amp, then I could use the crossover in that (and when I buy a new amp for my HT, I'll move my trusty Denon 3801 to 2.1 duty in my bedroom, but that's not happening immediately).

So is this a common way of doing things? Horrible? Fine, but sub-par audio fidelity? Will my dog get cancer because of this? (NOTE: I don't have a dog). Will YOUR dog get cancer because of this? Is this perfectly fine? Do I need to return the sub? Should I just buy a receiver with an RCA sub-out? Should I go buy a dog, and then wait and see if it gets cancer?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[frowertr]

So, most of the subs I looked at (HSU STF-2, most notably) had speaker level ins AND outs. This is important because the receiver I'm using to power my setup doesn't have a dedicated LFE/sub out. Fast forward to me eagerly waiting a month for my eD A3S-250 annnnnnd....

Not speaker level outs.

Oops.

So, I did the old "twist the bookshelf cables and receiver cables in to one copper connector and put it in the posts on the sub" trick. It works, in that I get sound from all the speakers, but is this really an accepted solution? Are there any downsides to doing this? Obviously if I had a better receiver/amp, then I could use the crossover in that (and when I buy a new amp for my HT, I'll move my trusty Denon 3801 to 2.1 duty in my bedroom, but that's not happening immediately).

So is this a common way of doing things? Horrible? Fine, but sub-par audio fidelity? Will my dog get cancer because of this? (NOTE: I don't have a dog). Will YOUR dog get cancer because of this? Is this perfectly fine? Do I need to return the sub? Should I just buy a receiver with an RCA sub-out? Should I go buy a dog, and then wait and see if it gets cancer?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

The only downside I can think of this way is that you are basically running your sub in "passive format". What I mean is this is the way one would typically hookup a passive sub (one that isn't self powered). It is a downside as you have to set your speakers to "Large" in your AVR's settings menu in order to send full range sound through the speaker cables and then finally into your sub. You can then tweak the variable crossover on the back of the sub to have it only output sound under the crossover you set (80hz for example).

Unfortunately though, you are at the whim of the variable crossover's quality in your sub to determine how the whole system blends together. You will probably have to play with it and see how it sounds.


If you get the extra cash and want a new AVR call up Electronics Expo and order a Denon 2112 for $450. It will have every option you need and more!

 

[kornphlake]

There's really not an elegant way of integrating a sub with an older amp. The best you can do is a preamp with a XO but I'm not sure such a thing exists or if it does it will cost much more than buying a new receiver. A hack job solution is to use a cheap automotive XO example with a 12v wall wart power supply as a preamp, you'll have to adjust the volume for the sub and the volume for the mains independently though.

 

[NutBucket]

There's nothing wrong with what you're doing.

The old sub had speaker level outputs that were mostly likely high-pass filtered. So whatever you set the crossover level on the sub to, the sub would handle the lows and everything else was sent to the speakers.

So what you have now is the sub handling the lows and the speakers still receiving a full-range signal. There's no need for you to buy anything else UNLESS you're unhappy about how your new setup sounds even after tweaking the settings.

Final thought: The quality of your receiver and speakers matters MUCH more than whether you have an LFE output. The Pioneer receiver I bought in the mid 90's sounds terrible compared to the receivers I have that were made in the 70's. I only use my AVR for movies/TV/games. Music is the domain of vintage gear in my home.

 

[kornphlake]

Running speakers full range isn't a bad thing, but one of the benefits of adding a sub is that you can high pass the main speakers and reduce distortion caused by trying to reproduce low frequencies with smaller drivers. Your speakers will probably sound better high passed with a sub than they do when run full range, integrating the sub with the mains will be tricky unless the mains have a steep natural rolloff.

Edit: As far as I know when a sub has speaker level in and out terminals the signal is the same going in as it is going out, essentially it's wiring the sub to the mains in parallel just like the OP has but doesn't involve as much wire. I'm not aware of any high pass filter between the speaker level in and the speaker level out on any sub.

 

[NutBucket]

I figured why bother with a set of outputs if its only a pass-through.

Looks like I was only taking a guess though. A quick check of my sub's manual makes no mention of high-pass filtering the speaker outputs.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

I don't think you're hurting anything by doing this, but if it's really getting your goat, you could always use your receiver's "B" speaker terminals to run a length of speaker wire to your sub.

You could also use an empty set of pre-outs (Tape, etc.) on your receiver to send signal to your sub. They don't have to be subwoofer-specific outputs; as long as they're putting out a signal, they can be plugged into the sub. You'll have to be a little careful with your sub's crossover settings, but it will work.

 

[NutBucket]

Uh, you can't use any set of pre-outs since they aren't tied to the volume knob. Only the pre-outs specific to the speaker outputs will be volume controlled.

 

[scootermaster]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

The receiver obviously doesn't have any "modes" for speakers, but it does have a B output, so perhaps I'll try that if needed, but as you say, if there's no crossover involved it'll probably sound exactly the same.

The mains are Arx A1s, and they actually have pretty decent bass response for their size (supposedly down to 60hz with a cutoff of 40hz). I'm just not sure exactly how to set the crossover and levels on the sub. The recommended setup from the A1 manual -- given the constraints of not having an amp that'll crossover -- recommends the crossover (on the sub) to "far left" (I think that's like 80hz, but I don't exactly remember. The sub is an Elemental Designs A3S-250), and then the volume to taste, but that doesn't really do much of anything for the majority of music I'm playing. Now, it's possible that that's just an artifact of the music itself, but I was just puzzled at having to tweak the settings.

As I have it set now, I'm pretty pleased with it -- I think -- and like I said before, I don't really have any intention of upgrading for about a year or so, until I redo my HT and get a proper amp.

Again, I appreciate the responses and am interested in anything else you have to say.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Uh, you can't use any set of pre-outs since they aren't tied to the volume knob. Only the pre-outs specific to the speaker outputs will be volume controlled.

LOL, good point. I think I did this once a long time ago when I was in college and I must have just adjusted the volume on the subwoofer by hand. Sorry for the poor advice

 

[kornphlake]

The mains are Arx A1s, and they actually have pretty decent bass response for their size (supposedly down to 60hz with a cutoff of 40hz). I'm just not sure exactly how to set the crossover and levels on the sub. The recommended setup from the A1 manual -- given the constraints of not having an amp that'll crossover -- recommends the crossover (on the sub) to "far left" (I think that's like 80hz, but I don't exactly remember. The sub is an Elemental Designs A3S-250), and then the volume to taste, but that doesn't really do much of anything for the majority of music I'm playing. Now, it's possible that that's just an artifact of the music itself, but I was just puzzled at having to tweak the settings.

Depending on the music you listen to this is pretty normal, few instruments can produce frequencies lower than about 40hz, electronic music is the only music that really extends below 40 hz. Your sub's amp has some kind of slope on the XO so that it doesn't play full volume at 79hz and nothing at 80hz, as that would sound un-natural. With the XO knob set at 80hz the sub plays full volume at 50hz (I'm picking an arbitrary number) and fades as the frequency rises until it is silent at 90hz. Really you're only getting full volume reinforcement from 50hz down. The sub should make music sound fuller, but if you've got decent floorstanding speakers the difference is going to be very subtle, if you had bookshelf speakers with 4" drivers the sub would make a more noticeable impact in music. If you watch a movie with a decent LFE track you should feel the sub working a lot more than when you listen to music.

 

[sdifox]

Depending on the music you listen to this is pretty normal, few instruments can produce frequencies lower than about 40hz, electronic music is the only music that really extends below 40 hz. Your sub's amp has some kind of slope on the XO so that it doesn't play full volume at 79hz and nothing at 80hz, as that would sound un-natural. With the XO knob set at 80hz the sub plays full volume at 50hz (I'm picking an arbitrary number) and fades as the frequency rises until it is silent at 90hz. Really you're only getting full volume reinforcement from 50hz down. The sub should make music sound fuller, but if you've got decent floorstanding speakers the difference is going to be very subtle, if you had bookshelf speakers with 4" drivers the sub would make a more noticeable impact in music. If you watch a movie with a decent LFE track you should feel the sub working a lot more than when you listen to music.

plenty of classical music go below 40hz

 

[NutBucket]

Clearly the OP isn't spending NEARLY enough on his gear to be a connoisseur of classical music

 

[sdifox]

Clearly the OP isn't spending NEARLY enough on his gear to be a connoisseur of classical music

you don't need expensive gear to enjoy classical music. Hell you could just go to your local library and use their music collection and headphones.

 

[NutBucket]

Hence my use of the word connoisseur

 

[sdifox]

Hence my use of the word connoisseur

sarcasm is lost on me...

 

[scootermaster]

Clearly the OP isn't spending NEARLY enough on his gear to be a connoisseur of classical music

The irony here is that for the money, a). you'd be hard pressed to find a better, more musical setup and b). the quality and output of the components I chose (ahem, receiver -- and DAC, which I haven't mentioned -- excepted) are much more befitting of something significantly more expensive.

The OTHER irony here is that one of my test CDs was a Lorin Maazel version of The 1812 Overture. You know, (or maybe you don't), the one with the cannons? I have memories of my dad playing the same version as a kid, and it shaking our house. Now, granted, it was a small house, and my dad had a ridiculous Carver power amp and a 12" (or more?) trapezoidal M&K subwoofer+multi-way mains that put mine to shame, but you get the idea. Or, you know, maybe you don't.

So, back to the actual point here: Thanks to everyone with useful responses. I think the point is that there's no hard in doing what I'm doing, but the sooner I can upgrade the receiver, the better.

 

[NutBucket]

LOL! I love being wrong.

But, you never did tell us what receiver you're running.

 

[scootermaster]

LOL! I love being wrong.

But, you never did tell us what receiver you're running.

Don't worry, I don't take it personally.

The receiver is a Pioneer sx-201. It's, oh, 20ish years old. I just had it lying around. I could buy something cheap like (in the $200-$300 range) but it seems pointless when I'm likely to invest in a Denon 3313ci or something of the sort in the next 12-18 months or so.

If I could find a quality [pre] amp + DAC (either USB or FW) then I might be tempted, but it seems like there aren't many options there, and the ones that I do see are $800+ (and, of course, I'd likely end up in the same situation as I have now, as most of them don't seem to have LFE outs).

If you have a suggestion for what I should be using for a bedroom setup with a Macbook Pro, I'm all ears.

(FWIW: My DAC is a Firewire Miglia HarmonyAudio)

 

[NutBucket]

Ugh, that's about the same vintage as the crap Pioneer I have.

If your budget is that small, definitely should go real vintage as in 70's gear from Marantz, Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui, etc. That is truly the golden age of analog electronics. Stuff is built tuff and sounds wonderful.