1999 Camry Vibrating tach needle on idle

[steppinthrax]

I have a 99 Camry with about 34K on it. I've had it about a year now. I've done some minor engine work on it. I replaced the plugs to BOSCH double pt tips and replaced the ignition wire set. I noticed some improvement in idle and engine noise. But one thing I'm getting is on idle I get a vibrating tach needle. The engine overall sounds good with no weird sounds. I'm not quite sure if you guys notice your tach needle jitters a bit on idle. I'm at lost on where to look......

How do I check motor mounts. I can see the dogbone one on the top and the one right in front of the exhaust manifold but that's about it....

 

[imported_wonderwrench]

4 cyl or V6? stick or automatic? A 4 cyl will be slightly ruff at idle
in gear on automatic cars compared to a v6 or v8's in most cases.
Your 99 uses automatic idle control system. Cleaning
the throttle plate and throttle plate bore may help restore idle quality.
This may or may not be a problem in your case.
Engine mounts can and do sag over time making the
idle seem worse. This should not be a problem in your case
because of age of your car. Also poor fitting after market exhaust
or bent factory exhaust can cause engine vibrations to be more noticeable.

Is it just the tach acting up or is the engine running poorly at idle?
A word of warning, Bosch plugs are made of metal that loves to seize
in cylinder heads. They also have problems with varying heat range
from plug to plug and batch to batch.
I hate Bosch plugs and only use them when they are used as original
equipment. Over the years I have seen problems Bosch plugs
have caused, plug fouling do to too cold a heat range, and on the other
extreme engine damage caused by too hot a heat range. This is using
the correct part number per Bosch.

Most after market ignition parts are of poor quality compared to original
equipment parts. Most after market wire sets for Toyota do not even look
the same and fit even worse. Toyota wire sets look and fit right and cost
is around the same price as many after market sets.

I always try to use original equipment (brand) plugs in any car I work on
because thats what the manufacturer used during engine development.
Heat range will always be slightly different between brands even though
made for the same application. Its just not worth the chance. In your case
Toyota uses NGK aka Mitsubishi or Denso aka Toyota plugs from the factory.
Both make some of the best spark plugs on the market.
If you really want the best plugs for your car get Denso or NGK Iridium plugs.

I also recommend using a small amount of quality anti seize compound
on the threads of any plug used in a aluminum head. Also never leave
spark plugs in an engine that uses aluminum heads for more than a few years
or 50K miles. Any longer and the chances of having a plug or plugs seize
increases.

Also keep in mind, conventional ignition systems and COP aka
coil on plug ignition systems only require platinum or Iridium on the
center electrode because 99% of the wear is on the center electrode.
On ignition systems that share a single coil between pairs of spark plugs as
your 99 does, platinum or Iridium is needed on both ground and center electrodes
because half the plugs fire backwards. So using a plug that only has
a platinum or Iridium center electrode on a system that uses
a shared coil system is a waste of money because half the plugs
will wear like non platinum/Iridium plugs.

Sorry I had a brain fart and thought your car was a 89.
I stand by my opinion on after market parts BTW.

 

[owlface]

I have a 99 4 cylinder auto camry with a jumpy tach needle as well. But I have 130,xxx miles.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
4 cyl or V6? stick or automatic? A 4 cyl will be slightly ruff at idle
in gear on automatic cars compared to a v6 or v8's in most cases.
Your 89 uses a very basic automatic idle control system. Cleaning
the throttle plate and throttle plate bore may help restore idle quality.
Also having the base idle speed and load compensator's adjusted
by a qualified tech may be needed as things can and do change
over time. Engine mounts can and do sag over time making the
idle seem worse. Its sometimes hard to prove if the mounts are
the problem. Also poor fitting after market exhaust can cause engine
vibrations to be more noticeable.

I'll take this one issue at a time. His car is a '99, not an '89. At only 34,000 miles it is unlikely to have an aftermarket exhaust. It is also highly unlikely that there has been sufficient buildup on the throttle plate to cause a problem at idle.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Is it just the tach acting up or is the engine running poorly at idle?
A word of warning, Bosch plugs are made of metal that loves to seize
in cylinder heads. They also have problems with varying heat range
from plug to plug and batch to batch.
I hate Bosch plugs and only use them when they are used as original
equipment. Over the years I have seen problems Bosch plugs
have caused, plug fouling do to too cold a heat range, and on the other
extreme engine damage caused by too hot a heat range. This is using
the correct part number per Bosch.

Since his original post said, "The engine overall sounds good with no weird sounds.", it ought to be obvious that the engine is not running poorly.

As far as your diatribe against BOSCH plugs goes, it's not even worth my time. Peddle your FUD elsewhere.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Most after market ignition parts are of poor quality compared to original
equipment parts. Most after market wire sets for Toyota do not even look
the same and fit even worse. Toyota wire sets look and fit right and cost
is around the same price as many after market sets.

Let's simply say that your experience differs drastically from mine.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I always try to use original equipment (brand) plugs in any car I work on
because thats what the manufacturer used during engine development.
Heat range will always be slightly different between brands even though
made for the same application. Its just not worth the chance. In your case
Toyota uses NGK aka Mitsubishi or Denso aka Toyota plugs from the factory.
Both make some of the best spark plugs on the market.

NGK is NGK. They are not somehow also called "Mitsubishi". NGK may make OE plugs for Mitsubishi, but they are not in any way produced by or with Mitsubishi or sold anywhere other than a Mitsubishi dealership with that branding. The same goes for NipponDenso and Toyota.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
If you really want the best plugs for your car get Denso or NGK Iridium plugs.

Please tell me that you're joking. The best plugs are straight copper-core plugs. The only reason to bother with Platinum or Iridium is to delay maintenance. It is proven that copper plugs will result in better performance during their normal lifespan. Platinum and Iridium plugs offer slightly lower performance in exchange for a longer service life. You also save money this way. Copper plugs will last 30,000 miles in modern engines while platinum plugs will last 100,000 miles. However, platinum plugs are sufficiently more expensive that they cost more money over the long run. Iridium plugs, at $12.00 or more each, are so far beyond ridiculously overpriced that it's not even funny.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I also recommend using a small amount of quality anti seize compound
on the threads of any plug used in a aluminum head. Also never leave
spark plugs in an engine that uses aluminum heads for more than a few years
or 50K miles. Any longer and the chances of having a plug or plugs sieze
increases.

I never use anti-seize and I've never had a problem with any brand of plugs in aluminum heads. That said, a very small amount on the threads only can be beneficial. But one must be scrupulously careful to never get the anti-seize onto the tip of the plug or into the combustion chamber as anti-seize compound can be disastrously bad for emissions control pieces like the catalytic converter.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Also keep in mind, conventional ignition systems( like your 89) and COP aka
coil on plug ignition systems only require platinum or Iridium on the
center electrode because 99% of the wear is on the center electrode.
On ignition systems that share a single coil between pairs of spark plugs,
platinum or Iridium is needed on both ground and center electrodes
because half the plugs fire backwards. So using a plug that only has
a platinum or Iridium center electrode on a system that uses
a shared coil system is a waste of money because half the plugs
will wear like non platinum/Iridium plugs.

See previous statement regarding the reduced performance of platinum/iridium plugs.

ZV

 

[imported_wonderwrench]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
4 cyl or V6? stick or automatic? A 4 cyl will be slightly ruff at idle
in gear on automatic cars compared to a v6 or v8's in most cases.
Your 89 uses a very basic automatic idle control system. Cleaning
the throttle plate and throttle plate bore may help restore idle quality.
Also having the base idle speed and load compensator's adjusted
by a qualified tech may be needed as things can and do change
over time. Engine mounts can and do sag over time making the
idle seem worse. Its sometimes hard to prove if the mounts are
the problem. Also poor fitting after market exhaust can cause engine
vibrations to be more noticeable.

I'll take this one issue at a time. His car is a '99, not an '89. At only 34,000 miles it is unlikely to have an aftermarket exhaust. It is also highly unlikely that there has been sufficient buildup on the throttle plate to cause a problem at idle.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Is it just the tach acting up or is the engine running poorly at idle?
A word of warning, Bosch plugs are made of metal that loves to seize
in cylinder heads. They also have problems with varying heat range
from plug to plug and batch to batch.
I hate Bosch plugs and only use them when they are used as original
equipment. Over the years I have seen problems Bosch plugs
have caused, plug fouling do to too cold a heat range, and on the other
extreme engine damage caused by too hot a heat range. This is using
the correct part number per Bosch.

Since his original post said, "The engine overall sounds good with no weird sounds.", it ought to be obvious that the engine is not running poorly.

As far as your diatribe against BOSCH plugs goes, it's not even worth my time. Peddle your FUD elsewhere.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Most after market ignition parts are of poor quality compared to original
equipment parts. Most after market wire sets for Toyota do not even look
the same and fit even worse. Toyota wire sets look and fit right and cost
is around the same price as many after market sets.

Let's simply say that your experience differs drastically from mine.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I always try to use original equipment (brand) plugs in any car I work on
because thats what the manufacturer used during engine development.
Heat range will always be slightly different between brands even though
made for the same application. Its just not worth the chance. In your case
Toyota uses NGK aka Mitsubishi or Denso aka Toyota plugs from the factory.
Both make some of the best spark plugs on the market.

NGK is NGK. They are not somehow also called "Mitsubishi". NGK may make OE plugs for Mitsubishi, but they are not in any way produced by or with Mitsubishi or sold anywhere other than a Mitsubishi dealership with that branding. The same goes for NipponDenso and Toyota.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
If you really want the best plugs for your car get Denso or NGK Iridium plugs.

Please tell me that you're joking. The best plugs are straight copper-core plugs. The only reason to bother with Platinum or Iridium is to delay maintenance. It is proven that copper plugs will result in better performance during their normal lifespan. Platinum and Iridium plugs offer slightly lower performance in exchange for a longer service life. You also save money this way. Copper plugs will last 30,000 miles in modern engines while platinum plugs will last 100,000 miles. However, platinum plugs are sufficiently more expensive that they cost more money over the long run. Iridium plugs, at $12.00 or more each, are so far beyond ridiculously overpriced that it's not even funny.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I also recommend using a small amount of quality anti seize compound
on the threads of any plug used in a aluminum head. Also never leave
spark plugs in an engine that uses aluminum heads for more than a few years
or 50K miles. Any longer and the chances of having a plug or plugs sieze
increases.

I never use anti-seize and I've never had a problem with any brand of plugs in aluminum heads. That said, a very small amount on the threads only can be beneficial. But one must be scrupulously careful to never get the anti-seize onto the tip of the plug or into the combustion chamber as anti-seize compound can be disastrously bad for emissions control pieces like the catalytic converter.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Also keep in mind, conventional ignition systems( like your 89) and COP aka
coil on plug ignition systems only require platinum or Iridium on the
center electrode because 99% of the wear is on the center electrode.
On ignition systems that share a single coil between pairs of spark plugs,
platinum or Iridium is needed on both ground and center electrodes
because half the plugs fire backwards. So using a plug that only has
a platinum or Iridium center electrode on a system that uses
a shared coil system is a waste of money because half the plugs
will wear like non platinum/Iridium plugs.

See previous statement regarding the reduced performance of platinum/iridium plugs.

ZV

Ok I f'd up on the year, by the way you are a ass hole! Besides you must have lived a sheltered life as you have no clue what the f you are talking about.

I corrected my post f'er. Now the average car owner could not tell if a car had a dead cylinder if their life depended on it. Now I have no clue if steppinthrax can or not.
I was trying to determine if he even has a problem.

Back to the debate. As I have said you must have lead a sheltered life, Bosch plugs suck
ass. I have been a drivability tech for over 20 of my 25+ years as a auto technician.
I most likely have worked on and fixed more cars then you will see on the road in your life.
I have worked at Chrysler and GM dealers and several independent general repair shops over the years. I have also worked at specialty shops that did nothing but drivability and electrical repair. The one thing in common between them is I was hired to do drivability and electrical repair on cars and light trucks. And guess what people call me good at it.

Lets talk about aftermarket emission control parts and ignition parts. Give me your list of after market parts brands that are as good or better than factory parts. Keep in mind there are rare cases where an after market part is better than the OE part. Lets take plug wires as an example. First they have to fit correctly. A high enough percentage of after market plug wires DO NOT fit correctly. I'm not talking just about length I'm talking about the fit at the plug and coil. Poor fit can cause misfires and come backs. To know which aftermarket wires fit correctly on each and every car made is not going to happen. I'm not going to install 5 sets of wires trying to find a set that fits. Lets take ignition modules. Have you ever removed the cover on a ford TFI module comparing a factory part to a after market one?
There is no comparison as the aftermarket ones are cheap copies. Some are so bad I'd call them fakes. Lets talk EGR valves, no f'ing way I'm using a aftermarket EGR valve.
In the end aftermarket parts are so problematic its not worth the trouble. I'm not saying I never use aftermarket parts I'm saying I try not to because I have seen way too many problems with them. And as cars get more sophisticated aftermarket parts can only get worse.

Lets go back to spark plugs. You are half right about platinum/Iridium plugs. Their only real advantage is service life. But nothing says platinum/Iridium plugs can't have copper cores. They have nothing to do with each other. Platinum/Iridium plugs extend service life while copper cores widen the heat range. In effect allowing the plug to cope with combustion temp extremes better than plugs without copper cores. Platinum/Iridium plugs should not need a copper core because they naturally have a wide heat range to begin with. Now your full of it as far as performance goes. There is not enough difference in HP or torque output between any spark plug so its not even worth talking about. This is of course using the correct heat range plug for the engine. I have personally ran dyno tests to back this statement up. The platinum plugs put out slightly more horse power than standard plugs more times than not but your talking less than 1% and the dyno error is more than that so its a wash. Lets see your proof platinum/Iridium plugs loose performance.

You say standard plugs will last 30K? Not on a shared coil DI engine they will not.
The ground electrodes are fried long before 30K on the plugs that fire backwards.

One last thing, you claim to have never had a engine with a frozen plug or plugs in front of you? Well some come out and leave the threads in the head and some do not. The ones that take threads out are a pain in the ass. You can time-sert or helicoil the threads as a repair taking the chance of getting aluminum shavings in the engine. Thats if the affected threads are accessible without pulling the head. Or you can do the job the right way and pull the head in the first place. Its your call, You must have at least driven a car once?

All is fair in love and war! I made a mistake about the year and you hit me when I was down. Well get the f'up off the floor and fight like the blank that you are!

 

[redgtxdi]

Thrax.......

Did you get the vibrating tach needle *before* you changed the plugs/wires???



P.S. (in the Zemmer/Wonder war).............I used Bosch plugs throughout the late 80's/early 90's drag racing and they were fine. I use Denso in my 2 Toyotas....they, too, work fine.

Standard copper plugs will work WELL in excess of 30K on a shared coil/non, DI/TB or carbureted engine and, yes, I have the miles to prove it.

I will agree w/ Wonder on OEM parts...........they're *mostly* (said lightly) better and over the years, aftermarket parts *and* what you get at the local Autozone have been aggregated into a deceptive lot. There are PLENTY of aftermarket *better than* parts and I probably couldn't fit them all on this page, but for the daily driver, OEM's excellent.

 

[imported_wonderwrench]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I always try to use original equipment (brand) plugs in any car I work on
because thats what the manufacturer used during engine development.
Heat range will always be slightly different between brands even though
made for the same application. Its just not worth the chance. In your case
Toyota uses NGK aka Mitsubishi or Denso aka Toyota plugs from the factory.
Both make some of the best spark plugs on the market.

NGK is NGK. They are not somehow also called "Mitsubishi". NGK may make OE plugs for Mitsubishi, but they are not in any way produced by or with Mitsubishi or sold anywhere other than a Mitsubishi dealership with that branding. The same goes for NipponDenso and Toyota.


ZV

I missed one
Mitsubishi has part ownership of NGK or did have at one time. Same goes for Toyota and Denso. Denso was 100% owned by Toyota if you look far enough back in time. Oh its no longer NipponDenso its Denso it has been for over 10 years.

Denso and NGK make parts for each other so in many cases if you buy parts for a given application the parts could be made in the same factory even though one box says NGK and another says Denso.

 

[imported_wonderwrench]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Thrax.......

Standard copper plugs will work WELL in excess of 30K on a shared coil/non, DI/TB or carbureted engine and, yes, I have the miles to prove it.

.

Have you ever payed attention to the plug gap on the plugs that wear the ground electrode on shared coil DI after 30K miles? The gap can nearly double. The increased voltage needed to get the plug to fire causes a huge loss in spark time. Also keep in mind that this is a shared coil system so the partner plug also has increased gap though to a lesser degree and a need for increased voltage to fire. This causes yet shorter spark time. You may not be able to tell this driving the car but it can easily be seen on a O scope. Two things happen the ignition system has to work much harder so all related components have a shortened live span and combustion efficiency is greatly reduced. This can be seen by using a 4 or 5 gas exhaust gas analyzer and is most noticeable at idle, more so when the engine is cold. Hc's are higher and are much more unstable.

"Standard copper plugs will work WELL in excess of 30K on a shared coil/DI engine and, yes, I have the miles to prove it."
Thats like saying you can just add oil and only change it every 50K. You may get away with it but what do you end up with? A bigger expense in the long run because the engine will fail sooner. So lets save 10 bucks now but spend a lot more later. DI parts are not cheap.

I could have and should have gone farther into my reasoning behind using expensive plugs.
First if the plugs are near impossible to get too the overall cost of using platinum or Iridium plugs is offset by labor costs in replacing standard plugs more often. Example: A newer ford van or pickup using a 4.6L, 5.4L or 6.0L engine pays between 2.7 and 3.6 hours to replace the spark plugs. Figuring $100 per hr as that the going rate in many larger cities thats $270 to $360 in labor. Lets take the lower labor of $270 . Using the most expensive plugs, cost $12 each X 8 = $96. Changing them as ford recommends every 100K it would cost $366.
Now take standard plugs every 30K. Plugs $2.50 X 8 = $20 plus $270 labor = $290. So $290 X 3 = $870.
Using standard plugs costs $870 and need replacement again at 120K
Using Platinum plugs and jacking the price up on them to more than you would ever pay $366 and will go to 200K.
It's a no brainer.

Now if the plugs are easy to get too.
Standard plugs at 30K intervals. 4 cyl engine .4 hrs labor at $100 hr. = $40.
Plugs $2.50 each X 4 = $10, 40 + 10 = $50. So $50 every 30K.
Platinum or Iridium plugs changed at 60K intervals. $12 X 4 = $48 + $40 labor as above = $88.
Using standard plugs to reach 120K would cost 50 X 3 = $150.
Using Platinum or Iridium plugs would cost $88 to reach 120K.
Platinum or Iridium plugs are still cheaper. Now if you work on your own car its a different story as your labor is free as long as you have nothing better to do. IMO I'd still use Platinum or Iridium plugs as my time is worth money to me and you will need to replace the plugs less often.

I just thought of an example of factory parts that suck. GM in the infinite wisdom removed the ribs from AC spark plugs claiming they were only there in the fist place to keep the plug wires from falling off. This is BS, the ribs effectively lengthen the insulator and help eliminate flash over. When flash over occurs it causes carbon tracking of the plug insulator and inside the plug boot. So you can throw the plug wires out with the plugs. This is such a common problem on GM vehicles I have started replacing AC plugs with another brand plug when possible.

I usually use Autolite as they are readily available. Champion plugs are ok but have a tendency to fail. The resistors open up causing misfire. Bosch as I said just plain suck. They love to seize in aluminum heads. Their standard plugs have massive electrodes that can cause poor engine performance and plug fouling because they never get up to temp.
Their Platinum plugs look like a science experiment that went wrong. The multi ground electrode plugs are too shrouded causing poor flame travel. The gap on their platinums cant be checked or adjusted and they do not have enough plug numbers to cover all gap and heat range requirements so in effect your using the wrong plugs half the time. Besides as I said before Bosch plug heat range varies as the wind blows. A given set can all be different and also vary batch to batch. Prestolite plugs work very well but are physically weak and have been known to snap off on removal. NGK, Denso and Motorcraft are also options if available. Well that my 2cents

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Thrax.......

Did you get the vibrating tach needle *before* you changed the plugs/wires???



P.S. (in the Zemmer/Wonder war).............I used Bosch plugs throughout the late 80's/early 90's drag racing and they were fine. I use Denso in my 2 Toyotas....they, too, work fine.

Standard copper plugs will work WELL in excess of 30K on a shared coil/non, DI/TB or carbureted engine and, yes, I have the miles to prove it.

I will agree w/ Wonder on OEM parts...........they're *mostly* (said lightly) better and over the years, aftermarket parts *and* what you get at the local Autozone have been aggregated into a deceptive lot. There are PLENTY of aftermarket *better than* parts and I probably couldn't fit them all on this page, but for the daily driver, OEM's excellent.

It was before and after. However, the engine sounded a little bit better after I changed the wire set. The wireset in there was the original set (1999) with about 34K on it. I noticed the rubber became brittle and had cracks in them.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Ok I f'd up on the year, by the way you are a ass hole! Besides you must have lived a sheltered life as you have no clue what the f you are talking about.

I'll put my reputation up against yours any time.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I corrected my post f'er. Now the average car owner could not tell if a car had a dead cylinder if their life depended on it. Now I have no clue if steppinthrax can or not.
I was trying to determine if he even has a problem.

Calm down. There's no need for language like that. I didn't indulge in that and neither should you. Let's take the high road, shall we?

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Back to the debate. As I have said you must have lead a sheltered life, Bosch plugs suck
ass. I have been a drivability tech for over 20 of my 25+ years as a auto technician.
I most likely have worked on and fixed more cars then you will see on the road in your life.
I have worked at Chrysler and GM dealers and several independent general repair shops over the years. I have also worked at specialty shops that did nothing but drivability and electrical repair. The one thing in common between them is I was hired to do drivability and electrical repair on cars and light trucks. And guess what people call me good at it.

Odd then that they are so incredibly popular in racing circles. I'm sure you did a fine job, otherwise you'd have been fired. But your experience simply does not in any way square with mine and I'm going to highlight that difference. It's up to the OP to decide, but that's not going to stop me from sharing the fact that my experience disagrees completely with yours. It may be largely to do with the fact that I work mainly on European vehicles where BOSCH parts are the OE parts whereas your experience is with domestics, but that's for the OP to evaluate.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Lets talk about aftermarket emission control parts and ignition parts. Give me your list of after market parts brands that are as good or better than factory parts. Keep in mind there are rare cases where an after market part is better than the OE part. Lets take plug wires as an example. First they have to fit correctly. A high enough percentage of after market plug wires DO NOT fit correctly. I'm not talking just about length I'm talking about the fit at the plug and coil. Poor fit can cause misfires and come backs. To know which aftermarket wires fit correctly on each and every car made is not going to happen. I'm not going to install 5 sets of wires trying to find a set that fits. Lets take ignition modules. Have you ever removed the cover on a ford TFI module comparing a factory part to a after market one?
There is no comparison as the aftermarket ones are cheap copies. Some are so bad I'd call them fakes. Lets talk EGR valves, no f'ing way I'm using a aftermarket EGR valve.
In the end aftermarket parts are so problematic its not worth the trouble. I'm not saying I never use aftermarket parts I'm saying I try not to because I have seen way too many problems with them. And as cars get more sophisticated aftermarket parts can only get worse.

You can introduce the strawman of emissions controls if you like, but you never mentioned emissions controls in your first post, only the ignition system. In which case I can name plenty of cases (MSD coils, Magnecor plug wires, etc) where the aftermarket produces a higher quality component than OE fitments. I have installed aftermarket BOSCH and NGK plug sets on numerous cars (Hondas, Volvos, Porsches, VWs, Lincolns) and have yet to come across a set that didn't fit exactly as well as the OE wires.

I surmise that you spuriously introduce emissions controls here because you knew I could name better aftermarket companies for ignition components and felt the need to be correct about something. And you are. For the most part, emissions control parts need to be OE, though simple things like O2 sensors or catalytic converters can be just as effective as OEM parts.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Lets go back to spark plugs. You are half right about platinum/Iridium plugs. Their only real advantage is service life. But nothing says platinum/Iridium plugs can't have copper cores. They have nothing to do with each other. Platinum/Iridium plugs extend service life while copper cores widen the heat range. In effect allowing the plug to cope with combustion temp extremes better than plugs without copper cores. Platinum/Iridium plugs should not need a copper core because they naturally have a wide heat range to begin with. Now your full of it as far as performance goes. There is not enough difference in HP or torque output between any spark plug so its not even worth talking about. This is of course using the correct heat range plug for the engine. I have personally ran dyno tests to back this statement up. The platinum plugs put out slightly more horse power than standard plugs more times than not but your talking less than 1% and the dyno error is more than that so its a wash. Lets see your proof platinum/Iridium plugs loose performance.

Turbocharged engines have a long history of not liking platinum plugs. Porsche's 944 series is an excellent example as even the NA engines do not run correctly with platinum plugs for very long. The turbocharged variants have been known to melt even the proper heat range platinum plugs (NGK plugs even). By "performance" with copper plugs I was speaking of drivability. I should have been more clear.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
You say standard plugs will last 30K? Not on a shared coil DI engine they will not.
The ground electrodes are fried long before 30K on the plugs that fire backwards.

I have never seen this. Not to mention redgtxdi's confirmation.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
One last thing, you claim to have never had a engine with a frozen plug or plugs in front of you? Well some come out and leave the threads in the head and some do not. The ones that take threads out are a pain in the ass. You can time-sert or helicoil the threads as a repair taking the chance of getting aluminum shavings in the engine. Thats if the affected threads are accessible without pulling the head. Or you can do the job the right way and pull the head in the first place. Its your call, You must have at least driven a car once?

I say again, I have never had a spark plug seize in an aluminum head. The only times I've even heard of it happening were in absolutely filthy engine bays where the culprit is not the dissimilar metals but owner neglect. When the plug wells are filled with dirt and gunk it's no surprise that some people report seized plugs. In any case one ought to pull the plugs once a year to read them and see what's going on.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
All is fair in love and war! I made a mistake about the year and you hit me when I was down. Well get the f'up off the floor and fight like the blank that you are!

Come on, can't you even begin to separate a critical opposing view of your recommendations from a personal attack? As my grandfather used to say, "You know you've won when the other person starts swearing."

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I missed one
Mitsubishi has part ownership of NGK or did have at one time. Same goes for Toyota and Denso. Denso was 100% owned by Toyota if you look far enough back in time. Oh its no longer NipponDenso its Denso it has been for over 10 years.

Denso and NGK make parts for each other so in many cases if you buy parts for a given application the parts could be made in the same factory even though one box says NGK and another says Denso.

Yes, Toyota Motor Corporation once owned NipponDenso. During WWII. It has been 60 years since NipponDenso was a subsidiary of Toyota Motor Corporation. Note that Toyota Motor Corporation is distinct from The Toyota Group which does still own NipponDenso. Even though the two companies are still owned by the same parent, I stand by my point that you will not find "Toyota" branded plugs outside of a Toyota dealership.

I am unable to find anything to back up your claim that Mitsubishi owns any part of NGK. However, since NGK is a publicly-traded company it is possible that Mitsubishi owns some shares despite NGK's own history making no mention of it. They do produce the OE spark plugs for Mitsubishi vehicles.

ZV

 

[imported_wonderwrench]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Ok I f'd up on the year, by the way you are a ass hole! Besides you must have lived a sheltered life as you have no clue what the f you are talking about.

I'll put my reputation up against yours any time.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I corrected my post f'er. Now the average car owner could not tell if a car had a dead cylinder if their life depended on it. Now I have no clue if steppinthrax can or not.
I was trying to determine if he even has a problem.

Calm down. There's no need for language like that. I didn't indulge in that and neither should you. Let's take the high road, shall we?

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Back to the debate. As I have said you must have lead a sheltered life, Bosch plugs suck
ass. I have been a drivability tech for over 20 of my 25+ years as a auto technician.
I most likely have worked on and fixed more cars then you will see on the road in your life.
I have worked at Chrysler and GM dealers and several independent general repair shops over the years. I have also worked at specialty shops that did nothing but drivability and electrical repair. The one thing in common between them is I was hired to do drivability and electrical repair on cars and light trucks. And guess what people call me good at it.

Odd then that they are so incredibly popular in racing circles. I'm sure you did a fine job, otherwise you'd have been fired. But your experience simply does not in any way square with mine and I'm going to highlight that difference. It's up to the OP to decide, but that's not going to stop me from sharing the fact that my experience disagrees completely with yours. It may be largely to do with the fact that I work mainly on European vehicles where BOSCH parts are the OE parts whereas your experience is with domestics, but that's for the OP to evaluate.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Lets talk about aftermarket emission control parts and ignition parts. Give me your list of after market parts brands that are as good or better than factory parts. Keep in mind there are rare cases where an after market part is better than the OE part. Lets take plug wires as an example. First they have to fit correctly. A high enough percentage of after market plug wires DO NOT fit correctly. I'm not talking just about length I'm talking about the fit at the plug and coil. Poor fit can cause misfires and come backs. To know which aftermarket wires fit correctly on each and every car made is not going to happen. I'm not going to install 5 sets of wires trying to find a set that fits. Lets take ignition modules. Have you ever removed the cover on a ford TFI module comparing a factory part to a after market one?
There is no comparison as the aftermarket ones are cheap copies. Some are so bad I'd call them fakes. Lets talk EGR valves, no f'ing way I'm using a aftermarket EGR valve.
In the end aftermarket parts are so problematic its not worth the trouble. I'm not saying I never use aftermarket parts I'm saying I try not to because I have seen way too many problems with them. And as cars get more sophisticated aftermarket parts can only get worse.

You can introduce the strawman of emissions controls if you like, but you never mentioned emissions controls in your first post, only the ignition system. In which case I can name plenty of cases (MSD coils, Magnecor plug wires, etc) where the aftermarket produces a higher quality component than OE fitments. I have installed aftermarket BOSCH and NGK plug sets on numerous cars (Hondas, Volvos, Porsches, VWs, Lincolns) and have yet to come across a set that didn't fit exactly as well as the OE wires.

I surmise that you spuriously introduce emissions controls here because you knew I could name better aftermarket companies for ignition components and felt the need to be correct about something. And you are. For the most part, emissions control parts need to be OE, though simple things like O2 sensors or catalytic converters can be just as effective as OEM parts.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Lets go back to spark plugs. You are half right about platinum/Iridium plugs. Their only real advantage is service life. But nothing says platinum/Iridium plugs can't have copper cores. They have nothing to do with each other. Platinum/Iridium plugs extend service life while copper cores widen the heat range. In effect allowing the plug to cope with combustion temp extremes better than plugs without copper cores. Platinum/Iridium plugs should not need a copper core because they naturally have a wide heat range to begin with. Now your full of it as far as performance goes. There is not enough difference in HP or torque output between any spark plug so its not even worth talking about. This is of course using the correct heat range plug for the engine. I have personally ran dyno tests to back this statement up. The platinum plugs put out slightly more horse power than standard plugs more times than not but your talking less than 1% and the dyno error is more than that so its a wash. Lets see your proof platinum/Iridium plugs loose performance.

Turbocharged engines have a long history of not liking platinum plugs. Porsche's 944 series is an excellent example as even the NA engines do not run correctly with platinum plugs for very long. The turbocharged variants have been known to melt even the proper heat range platinum plugs (NGK plugs even). By "performance" with copper plugs I was speaking of drivability. I should have been more clear.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
You say standard plugs will last 30K? Not on a shared coil DI engine they will not.
The ground electrodes are fried long before 30K on the plugs that fire backwards.

I have never seen this. Not to mention redgtxdi's confirmation.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
One last thing, you claim to have never had a engine with a frozen plug or plugs in front of you? Well some come out and leave the threads in the head and some do not. The ones that take threads out are a pain in the ass. You can time-sert or helicoil the threads as a repair taking the chance of getting aluminum shavings in the engine. Thats if the affected threads are accessible without pulling the head. Or you can do the job the right way and pull the head in the first place. Its your call, You must have at least driven a car once?

I say again, I have never had a spark plug seize in an aluminum head. The only times I've even heard of it happening were in absolutely filthy engine bays where the culprit is not the dissimilar metals but owner neglect. When the plug wells are filled with dirt and gunk it's no surprise that some people report seized plugs. In any case one ought to pull the plugs once a year to read them and see what's going on.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
All is fair in love and war! I made a mistake about the year and you hit me when I was down. Well get the f'up off the floor and fight like the blank that you are!

Come on, can't you even begin to separate a critical opposing view of your recommendations from a personal attack? As my grandfather used to say, "You know you've won when the other person starts swearing."

ZV

I think you hit the nail on the head. We come from two different backgrounds. I have worked mostly on domestic and Asian vehicle's. It sounds like you have worked more on European and Asian vehicles. Knowing this I see a whats going on. Bosch is going to make parts that fit European vehicles. NGK is going to make parts that fit Asian vehicles. Now here is the trouble. Working at a general repair shop close to 80% of the vehicles that come through the door are going to be (in order of frequency) GM, Ford and Chrysler. The rest will be a mix of Asian and European vehicles. Of this group 90% will be Asian and the rest European. Note this may vary by city state etc. but in general should be accurate at least enough for this conversation.

Now neither Bosch nor NGK have anywhere near complete coverage for 80% of the vehicles that are worked on in the US. Also they are not as readily available as Standard, Belden etc. are. I do agree that the NGK and Bosch wire sets I have used seemed to fix OK. But only being able to use them on cars they have coverage for would be a drop in the bucked. Even if they make a wire set for a car I'm working on at the time availability would be a crap shoot at best. Standing in your shoes where you work on mostly cars in the 20% group you have it made, good coverage and availability. So in the end we were both correct when taking about plug wires.

Now lets talk spark plugs. You say Bosch is big in racing. Well I will accept that knowing where you are coming from. Overall Champion is used in racing more than all other brands combined. Not because they are the best but because they make way more plug numbers. If a racer wants to change the heat range of the plugs most likely Champion makes them. If a racer used another brand he may have to change brands to get the plugs he wants and since different brands heat range characteristics will be different he would be starting from square one.

The turbo Porsche's melting plugs makes sense to me. As I said before Bosch standard plugs have huge center and ground electrodes and this would be a good reason why they live in those engines. Also remember I said use OE plugs so this fits right in. I said manufactures develop engines using a certain brand and type plug and because other brands are never going to be exactly the same even though they show as a proper replacement. If all plug brands were of equal quality I'm sure any brand could be used in any non high output engine 90% of the time. But there again its not worth the chance as a 10% come back rate is way to high. Now the 99 Toyota calls for a platinum plug from the factory if memory serves me right so recommending platinum or Iridium plugs is still is good advice. See my other post on cost over time.

I brought up emission controls to help prove my point. From your point of view I would say you are correct. O2 sensors from Bosch are going to be the same part on most if not all European vehicles because they are OE. Denso/NGK and Asian vehicles same thing. Now on domestic cars aftermarket O2 senors may or may not match factory parts. Simple example, GM single wire O2 sensors. GM used two different sensors with different characteristic's. GM services these as two different part numbers. But when you order an aftermarket sensor one number covers both, not good. Speed in getting parts also plays a factor and having to reorder parts to get the correct ones just slows productivity down. Its just not worth using aftermarket emission control parts in general.

Now lets talk catalytic converters. On a non modified vehicle I totally disagree with your view. Aftermarket converters almost never have the efficiency of the OE part being replaced. They may get the job done in the short term but they have no reserve capacity which over time has been shown to cause MIL lights aka catalytic converter efficiency low codes shortly after installation. Now many techs think they miss diagnosed the original problem and they may have. But I have taken the vary same cars they could not fix and replace the aftermarket converter with OE and the problem is solved in most cases.

I have used aftermarket parts without a second thought on my own cars when I see the need. This is because its my car and if anything goes wrong I'm to blame. I use single platinum plugs in my 91 Crown Vic because I'm a lazy bastard. Now I'm not going to tell any one to use aftermarket parts on their own vehicle because I can't personally test all possible out comes. IMO every time you install a aftermarket part you have never used before on a given model vehicle it is in effect an experiment. This is because of many factors. Cheap copies, never tested by the marker on your application but on paper will work, needs modification to fit or modification to the car to make it fit etc.etc.

Now when modifying a vehicle to increase performance many parts may need to be changed to get the job done. So this OE verses aftermarket debate goes out the window in most cases as most of the time factory speed parts are not an option.

In the end I say we are both correct on most points when looking at are backgrounds.
I'm sorry I used language you do not like. But the way you picked your words and the general tone in what you said pissed me off. Where I come from you attacked me and I'm going to do the same to you plus some.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Ok I f'd up on the year, by the way you are a ass hole! Besides you must have lived a sheltered life as you have no clue what the f you are talking about.

I'll put my reputation up against yours any time.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
I corrected my post f'er. Now the average car owner could not tell if a car had a dead cylinder if their life depended on it. Now I have no clue if steppinthrax can or not.
I was trying to determine if he even has a problem.

Calm down. There's no need for language like that. I didn't indulge in that and neither should you. Let's take the high road, shall we?

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Back to the debate. As I have said you must have lead a sheltered life, Bosch plugs suck
ass. I have been a drivability tech for over 20 of my 25+ years as a auto technician.
I most likely have worked on and fixed more cars then you will see on the road in your life.
I have worked at Chrysler and GM dealers and several independent general repair shops over the years. I have also worked at specialty shops that did nothing but drivability and electrical repair. The one thing in common between them is I was hired to do drivability and electrical repair on cars and light trucks. And guess what people call me good at it.

Odd then that they are so incredibly popular in racing circles. I'm sure you did a fine job, otherwise you'd have been fired. But your experience simply does not in any way square with mine and I'm going to highlight that difference. It's up to the OP to decide, but that's not going to stop me from sharing the fact that my experience disagrees completely with yours. It may be largely to do with the fact that I work mainly on European vehicles where BOSCH parts are the OE parts whereas your experience is with domestics, but that's for the OP to evaluate.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Lets talk about aftermarket emission control parts and ignition parts. Give me your list of after market parts brands that are as good or better than factory parts. Keep in mind there are rare cases where an after market part is better than the OE part. Lets take plug wires as an example. First they have to fit correctly. A high enough percentage of after market plug wires DO NOT fit correctly. I'm not talking just about length I'm talking about the fit at the plug and coil. Poor fit can cause misfires and come backs. To know which aftermarket wires fit correctly on each and every car made is not going to happen. I'm not going to install 5 sets of wires trying to find a set that fits. Lets take ignition modules. Have you ever removed the cover on a ford TFI module comparing a factory part to a after market one?
There is no comparison as the aftermarket ones are cheap copies. Some are so bad I'd call them fakes. Lets talk EGR valves, no f'ing way I'm using a aftermarket EGR valve.
In the end aftermarket parts are so problematic its not worth the trouble. I'm not saying I never use aftermarket parts I'm saying I try not to because I have seen way too many problems with them. And as cars get more sophisticated aftermarket parts can only get worse.

You can introduce the strawman of emissions controls if you like, but you never mentioned emissions controls in your first post, only the ignition system. In which case I can name plenty of cases (MSD coils, Magnecor plug wires, etc) where the aftermarket produces a higher quality component than OE fitments. I have installed aftermarket BOSCH and NGK plug sets on numerous cars (Hondas, Volvos, Porsches, VWs, Lincolns) and have yet to come across a set that didn't fit exactly as well as the OE wires.

I surmise that you spuriously introduce emissions controls here because you knew I could name better aftermarket companies for ignition components and felt the need to be correct about something. And you are. For the most part, emissions control parts need to be OE, though simple things like O2 sensors or catalytic converters can be just as effective as OEM parts.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
Lets go back to spark plugs. You are half right about platinum/Iridium plugs. Their only real advantage is service life. But nothing says platinum/Iridium plugs can't have copper cores. They have nothing to do with each other. Platinum/Iridium plugs extend service life while copper cores widen the heat range. In effect allowing the plug to cope with combustion temp extremes better than plugs without copper cores. Platinum/Iridium plugs should not need a copper core because they naturally have a wide heat range to begin with. Now your full of it as far as performance goes. There is not enough difference in HP or torque output between any spark plug so its not even worth talking about. This is of course using the correct heat range plug for the engine. I have personally ran dyno tests to back this statement up. The platinum plugs put out slightly more horse power than standard plugs more times than not but your talking less than 1% and the dyno error is more than that so its a wash. Lets see your proof platinum/Iridium plugs loose performance.

Turbocharged engines have a long history of not liking platinum plugs. Porsche's 944 series is an excellent example as even the NA engines do not run correctly with platinum plugs for very long. The turbocharged variants have been known to melt even the proper heat range platinum plugs (NGK plugs even). By "performance" with copper plugs I was speaking of drivability. I should have been more clear.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
You say standard plugs will last 30K? Not on a shared coil DI engine they will not.
The ground electrodes are fried long before 30K on the plugs that fire backwards.

I have never seen this. Not to mention redgtxdi's confirmation.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
One last thing, you claim to have never had a engine with a frozen plug or plugs in front of you? Well some come out and leave the threads in the head and some do not. The ones that take threads out are a pain in the ass. You can time-sert or helicoil the threads as a repair taking the chance of getting aluminum shavings in the engine. Thats if the affected threads are accessible without pulling the head. Or you can do the job the right way and pull the head in the first place. Its your call, You must have at least driven a car once?

I say again, I have never had a spark plug seize in an aluminum head. The only times I've even heard of it happening were in absolutely filthy engine bays where the culprit is not the dissimilar metals but owner neglect. When the plug wells are filled with dirt and gunk it's no surprise that some people report seized plugs. In any case one ought to pull the plugs once a year to read them and see what's going on.

Originally posted by: wonderwrench
All is fair in love and war! I made a mistake about the year and you hit me when I was down. Well get the f'up off the floor and fight like the blank that you are!

Come on, can't you even begin to separate a critical opposing view of your recommendations from a personal attack? As my grandfather used to say, "You know you've won when the other person starts swearing."

ZV

I've encountered certian situations where aftermarket didn't fit as well as OEM. But I believe it was the quality of the Aftermarket. I picked up a set of Valucraft spark plug wires from Autozone (keep in mind they have a lifetime warranty). The didn't seem to snap on the spark plug terminal correctly. The coil pack ends also seemed that they wanted to come off as soon as I put them on. When I went to pull the plug off to "reseat" it the metal clip on the wire tore off from the ignition wire terminal and was stuck on the plug. On one of the wires the rubber shaft boot poped off as I pulled the wire out.

I remember also getting a Wells thermostat for my saturn a while back. The termostat was so flimsy and cheap it looked notthing like the old termostat.

 

[imported_wonderwrench]

Yup seen that to many times on aftermarket wire sets. Filko had quality wires that fit and good coverage. Trouble is Standard bought them out and they are gone. Standard makes the worst wires I have ever seen. I have gotten shocked trying to re dress their wires after installing them. I found them so bad I could take a screw driver grounded by wire and pass it close to their wires and draw sparks on multipal wires in several places on each wire. And no these wires were not damaged during install and looked fine also. Another good test is to get the wires wet. A good set of wires will be unaffected. I have stalled engines completely out with a mist from a spray bottle on enough Standard wire sets I will never use them again. I stand by my view that most aftermarket replacement parts are crap.

Talking about thermostats. Here is another area where OE is generally the way to go. T stats should really be considered an emission control part because it must work correctly for the engine management system to function properly. Most aftermarket stats are a joke. They look cheap, many are DOA out of the box and if good at the time they are installed fail to regulate engine temp correctly in a year or two. Stant which is a big name in stats makes 2 lines of stats. Their cheap line is junk like the rest. The higher priced "Super Stat" line is much better. Thing is it has poor coverage so is only available for a few applications. Factory T stats only cost a few bucks more and are well worth it.

You got me going again. How about brake pads and shoes, oh my god. The crap you can by. Most aftermarket pads and shoes cause more problems than they are worth.
The dimensions of the metal backing is critical the the function of the part but most cheap pads and shoes are not even close to the correct dimensions. This can cause premature wear or noise.

The friction material used by most aftermarket pads is not anywhere close to the OE's characteristics. This can cause premature wear, noise and warped rotors do to overheating. Most aftermarket pads have cheap problematic shim kits or no shims what so ever and are a cause of many noise complaints. In the old days when cars had big heavy rotors they cooled the pads. This is generally no longer the case. The pads are actually are used to help cool the rotors. This heat is then dissipated through the caliper and its mounting points. This makes the friction material used very important.

Imports seem to have more problems with this than domestic cars do. Honda seems to have the most problems with aftermarket pads. I will not even install aftermarket pads on a Honda unless the customer gives me no choice. It is explained to them and put in writing that non factory pads can cause excessive noise, blue or warped rotors, decreased braking performance and short service life. No warranty coverage is given if the customer comes back with a problem related to the aftermarket pads.

Keep in mind I'm taking about stock cars not some modified car. You have little choice here as performance aftermarket parts may be needed. Expect noise and short service life. Also not all performance brake parts are created equal. Some are just high priced junk.