150,000+ protest in UK against Gaza siege

[fskimospy]

Did you ever stop to think that would not happen if those weapons were not stored in schools, hospitals or apartments where these civilians are???

Since when is the responsibility for dropping a bomb on a hospital or school with anyone other than the people who dropped the bomb on the hospital or school?

Hamas is a terrible organization, and they bear moral responsibility for deliberately putting weapons in places that they know will result in civilian casualties. None of that changes Israel's moral responsibility for actually carrying out those attacks.

 

[spacejamz]

Since when is the responsibility for dropping a bomb on a hospital or school with anyone other than the people who dropped the bomb on the hospital or school?

Hamas is a terrible organization, and they bear moral responsibility for deliberately putting weapons in places that they know will result in civilian casualties. None of that changes Israel's moral responsibility for actually carrying out those attacks.

When those bombs/rockets are being used to directly attack your country and kill your citizens would be a good time in my opinion....

But why do that and miss out on all those wonderful propaganda opportunities to parade those deaths to the world knowing that many of them are too stupid to realize who put them in harm's way first....

 

[Borealis7]

I support Palestinian resistance

do you support the methods the Palestinian leadership in Gaza chose in order to perpetrate their resistance?
[edit: you already answered it]

once Hamas uses those buildings for storing weapons they become valid targets. no one in the world would dispute that. otherwise, i'm raising an army of nurses and taking over the USA, no one would dare stop me.

 

[fskimospy]

When those bombs/rockets are being used to directly attack your country and kill your citizens would be a good time in my opinion....

But why do that and miss out on all those wonderful propaganda opportunities to parade those deaths to the world knowing that many of them are too stupid to realize who put them in harm's way first....

Again, I find it baffling to see Israel drop a bomb on a school and have people still attempting to say that they aren't responsible for dropping a bomb on a school.

Exactly three Israeli civilians died in the latest round of fighting. Three.

 

[fskimospy]

do you support the methods the Palestinian leadership in Gaza chose in order to perpetrate their resistance?

Why did you cut the rest of my post out? Do you now acknowledge that supporting an intifada does not equal genocide against Israel?

Insofar as the actions Hamas has undertaken to resist the Israeli occupation and blockade, no. Deliberate attacks on civilians is never okay. I think it is the failing of the international community that we have not done more to force Israel to behave responsibly.

 

[Borealis7]

Again, I find it baffling to see Israel drop a bomb on a school and have people still attempting to say that they aren't responsible for dropping a bomb on a school.

Exactly three Israeli civilians died in the latest round of fighting. Three.

fatality numbers are meaningless. just because 3 civilians died does it mean israel should sit quietly and take whatever is coming?

how many Americans died in Pearl Harbor, 1941? (wikipedia says 2400) how many Japanese died when the bombs dropped? (wikipedia says: 225,000 combined)

is that a proportionate response??? fuck no!
if you are attacked, you strike back. "proportional response" has never, in any conflict, been a consideration.

 

[fskimospy]

fatality numbers are meaningless. just because 3 civilians died does it mean israel should sit quietly and take whatever is coming?

Don't be silly, of course fatality numbers aren't meaningless. If that were the case the US should respond identically to a bomb exploding in a field that hurts no one and a nationwide thermonuclear attack.

Proportionality is a well understood, central tenet of international law.

 

[fskimospy]

how many Americans died in Pearl Harbor, 1941? (wikipedia says 2400) how many Japanese died when the bombs dropped?

is that a proportionate response??? fuck no!

We did not nuke Japan in retaliation for Pearl Harbor, and the atomic bombings likely saved lives.

Funny thing is that if you look at the combined death toll of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the high end (~250,000) and then look at the difference between 3 dead Israeli civilians and the Palestinian death toll, by the numbers game you're trying to play the atomic bombings were far a more proportionate response than Israel's latest incursion.

 

[Borealis7]

We did not nuke Japan in retaliation for Pearl Harbor, and the atomic bombings likely saved lives.

Funny thing is that if you look at the combined death toll of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the high end (~250,000) and then look at the difference between 3 dead Israeli civilians and the Palestinian death toll, by the numbers game you're trying to play the atomic bombings were far a more proportionate response than Israel's latest incursion.

math fail? 63 dead israeli soldiers and civilians, 1300 dead palestinians. (if you believe Hamas)
calculator says: 1:20.
try again.

the Palestinians themselves have set the ratio at 1000 prisoners to 1 kidnapped israeli soldier (Gilad Shalit)
how about we use that metric? great! 63 dead israelis, 1.3 dead israelis on the palestinian side.

what you are suggesting is that every time a rocket is fired at Israel, it should write an angry letter to the UN.

 

[Jaskalas]

Since when is the responsibility for dropping a bomb on a hospital or school with anyone other than the people who dropped the bomb on the hospital or school?

When the "school" is in a warzone and actively participating in that war.

Munition storage sites and rocket launch sites are all legitimate targets, no matter what they pretend to be.

 

[fskimospy]

math fail? 63 dead israeli soldiers and civilians, 1300 dead palestinians

calculator says: 1:20.

try again.

I was not counting the deaths of Israeli soldiers that were suffered while invading Gaza. It would be very odd to say that the deaths of soldiers that resulted from their commission of the offense should be compared to the deaths caused by the offense itself.

Also, according to the UN the Palestinian death toll is closer to about 2,000. Let's be extremely generous and say that even half of them were fighters (and we both know that's not true). That would be 333-1.

 

[fskimospy]

When the "school" is in a warzone and actively participating in that war.

Munition storage sites and rocket launch sites are all legitimate targets, no matter what they pretend to be.

I find it very interesting that you, a person who is constantly talking about the tyranny of government, has found a way to rationalize the deliberate bombing of schools by a government.

 

[Borealis7]

of course soldiers are counted. for Pearl Harbor they sure did.
here's my suggestion:
the Palestinians themselves have set the ratio at 1000 prisoners to 1 kidnapped israeli soldier (Gilad Shalit)
how about we use that metric? 63 dead israelis, 1.3 dead israelis on the palestinian side.

the low civilian death toll on the israeli side is the result of 2 things: the israeli government's ability to protect it's citizens (build shelters, build the Iron Dome) and Hamas' inability to protect it's citizens.
but it serves their purpose so they don't care.

 

[fskimospy]

what you are suggesting is that every time a rocket is fired at Israel, it should write an angry letter to the UN.

No, I'm saying that the Israeli response should be proportionate to the injury suffered.

Disproportionate attacks are a war crime, by the way, as is collective punishment. What is your stance on war crimes?

 

[fskimospy]

of course soldiers are counted. for Pearl Harbor they sure did.
here's my suggestion:
the Palestinians themselves have set the ratio at 1000 prisoners to 1 kidnapped israeli soldier (Gilad Shalit)
how about we use that metric? 63 dead israelis, 1.3 dead israelis on the palestinian side.

You missed the point. Casualties suffered while committing an offense aren't the same as the casualties inflicted by the offense itself.

As for your decision to bring up unrelated tangents, that's fine. If you just want to blindly support Israel that's your business. I'll stick to holding everyone responsible for their bad actions, no matter which side commits them.

 

[Borealis7]

No, I'm saying that the Israeli response should be proportionate to the injury suffered.

that is absurd. if Israel starts firing rockets indiscriminately at civilians the result would be no different than what goes on now. and the condemnation would be much greater.

tell me, which 2 Taliban buildings did the US crash airplanes into? oh right...

Disproportionate attacks are a war crime, by the way, as is collective punishment. What is your stance on war crimes?

in a war between an army and a terrorist organization, proportionality goes out the window before the first shot is fired. that is exactly Hamas' game.
my stance on war crimes is that Israel does what ever is needed to defend itself, while at least trying to minimize civilian casualties, while the other side does everything in it's power to maximize them.

 

[nehalem256]

No, I'm saying that the Israeli response should be proportionate to the injury suffered.

Disproportionate attacks are a war crime, by the way, as is collective punishment. What is your stance on war crimes?

So how does one measure a proportionate response?

Is it purely in terms of casualties suffered? Doesn't it seem pretty silly to go easy on your enemy because they suck at warfare?

 

[fskimospy]

that is absurd. if Israel starts firing rockets indiscriminately at civilians the result would be no different than what goes on now. and the condemnation would be much greater.

Are you now shifting to claims of persecution of Israel? Not interested.

tell me, which 2 Taliban buildings did the US crash airplanes into? oh right...

More irrelevant tangents. You can't diffuse Israel's responsibility by trying to bring up other ones. You're stuck with it.

in a war between an army and a terrorist organization, proportionality goes out the window before the first shot is fired. that is exactly Hamas' game.
my stance on war crimes is that Israel does what ever is needed to defend itself, while at least trying to minimize civilian casualties, while the other side does everything in it's power to maximize them.

I hope you see that you're simply rationalizing at this point. International law says that disproportionate attacks and collective punishment are war crimes, so you just declare that it doesn't matter. That's not rational.

 

[Borealis7]

i'm just giving you examples of responses that were disproportionate because that's how it is.

i keep thinking back through history and for the life of me, i can't find one single example of a proportionate response in a war between 2 countries. it just doesn't happen!

war itself is a war crime by international law!

 

[fskimospy]

i keep thinking back through history and for the life of me, i can't find one single example of a proportionate response in a war between 2 countries. it just doesn't happen!

war itself is a war crime by international law!

I don't think you understand the term:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#International_humanitarian_law

 

[Borealis7]

I don't think you understand the term:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#International_humanitarian_law

try to find me one example where all of these conditions were met. i'm not going to wait because it's going to take you a long time. it just doesn't happen.

 

[fskimospy]

try to find me one example where all of these conditions were met. i'm not going to wait because it's going to take you a long time. it just doesn't happen.

Hold on, are you saying that indiscriminate and disproportional attacks against civilians don't happen? Are you kidding?

Or are you trying to argue the opposite, that this sort of thing always happens and that such conditions are impossible to not violate?

 

[realibrad]

Eskimo, would you rather kill 5 of one group, or 10 of another?

I would imagine that you agree, that if Hamas could, they would kill every person in Israel. Do you believe that Israel should sit behind its walls, and Iron Dome and just wait to see if Hamas ever gets powerful enough to be equal?

Even with Israel controlling the borders, 181 rockets and 16 mortars were fired at Israel from January to June of 2014. July had an increase, and 2,874 rockets and 15 mortars were fired into Israel. So at what point does Israel get to defend itself? You can say that the response has been uneven, but why should Israel have to gamble with its citizens lives?

 

[fskimospy]

Eskimo, would you rather kill 5 of one group, or 10 of another?

I would imagine that you agree, that if Hamas could, they would kill every person in Israel. Do you believe that Israel should sit behind its walls, and Iron Dome and just wait to see if Hamas ever gets powerful enough to be equal?

First, I would not agree that Hamas would kill every person in Israel if they could. That's pretty much impossible speculation either way though.

I believe that Israel should stop its illegal settlement and occupation of territory that doesn't belong to it. If, after such a thing happens, continued attacks went their way then we would address that.

Even with Israel controlling the borders, 181 rockets and 16 mortars were fired at Israel from January to June of 2014. July had an increase, and 2,874 rockets and 15 mortars were fired into Israel. So at what point does Israel get to defend itself? You can say that the response has been uneven, but why should Israel have to gamble with its citizens lives?

I wonder what happened in July.

 

[Borealis7]

Hold on, are you saying that indiscriminate and disproportional attacks against civilians don't happen? Are you kidding?

Or are you trying to argue the opposite, that this sort of thing always happens and that such conditions are impossible to not violate?

exactly, these conditions are impossible not to violate.
it can be interpreted so that both the Iraq war and Afghanistan war are 2 huge war crimes.
what was the "military advantage" gained by replacing the regime in those countries for the USA? was Afghanistan a direct threat to the US militarily? is the Iraqi military even remotely comparable in power to the American Army?

hence, dis-proportionality according to the law described in your link.

First, I would not agree that Hamas would kill every person in Israel if they could.

Hamas leader Khaled Masha'l said it repeatedly and it's well documented in his speeches.