13 year old Yemeni girl legally f***ed to death by her husband

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8610491.stm

I don't normally post here, but since the months after 9/11 when I started learning about islam - mostly to comfort myself by confirming my suspicions that most muslims weren't much different than me (a suspicion I've come to realize was completely wrong; no more than a projection of my own morals and values onto an unknown culture) - I've been frightened by this religion.

13 is a bit old for a muslim girl to be married - many are unconsentually married as young as ~8, especially in Saudi Arabia, generally to men in their 40s or older. But while most of them are raped prepubescently, most don't actually die from it.

Is anyone else of the opinion that tolerance has its limits, and that we need to start policing islam, and to a lesser extent, the other religions? To hold them in a legal status of constant suspicion?
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
ummm, yeah... let's start policing islam... you ain't been out of your basement much lately, eh? invading muslim countries is so last admin...
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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See the problem with basing law on religion? Just because Mohammed married Aisha at age 9 doesn't mean it's right.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
One organized religion is no different then another organized religion.

I'm sure that not all Muslim's are thinking this way just like not all Catholics are looking at little kids out to screw em.

So..... We can only hope that the majority of the good outweigh the loons that think this way in whatever religious beliefs you have.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Child molestation in the Catholic church is a crime and exists outside of the teachings of the religion. The issue is enforcement and prevention and cover up.

But marrying child brides is enshrined in Islam. Mohammed himself married a 9 year old girl. That's why the law setting the legal age to 17 was repealed. If Islam teaches that marrying a 9 year old is OK, even for the holy prophet, of course it should be legal. If you think otherwise you're obviously a heretic and a heathen.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8610491.stm

I don't normally post here, but since the months after 9/11 when I started learning about islam - mostly to comfort myself by confirming my suspicions that most muslims weren't much different than me (a suspicion I've come to realize was completely wrong; no more than a projection of my own morals and values onto an unknown culture) - I've been frightened by this religion.

13 is a bit old for a muslim girl to be married - many are unconsentually married as young as ~8, especially in Saudi Arabia, generally to men in their 40s or older. But while most of them are raped prepubescently, most don't actually die from it.

Is anyone else of the opinion that tolerance has its limits, and that we need to start policing islam, and to a lesser extent, the other religions? To hold them in a legal status of constant suspicion?

That's because it's culturally acceptable as well as religiously. There are Muslims in first world countries and they aren't generally raping babies. I had to put generally because I'm sure some asshole has done it, and if there's one in a million another will point that out as "proof".

I bet you'd find more 8 year olds getting raped by Appalachian hillbillies than by Muslims in this country. When do we start policing hicks?
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
That's because it's culturally acceptable as well as religiously. There are Muslims in first world countries and they aren't generally raping babies. I had to put generally because I'm sure some asshole has done it, and if there's one in a million another will point that out as "proof".

I bet you'd find more 8 year olds getting raped by Appalachian hillbillies than by Muslims in this country. When do we start policing hicks?

gotta bang on you this time... we do police hicks... it's in our laws... but look at the 'adoption of sharia' movement and the appeasement of islam folks who's next steps will be to say that our laws shouldn't infringe on their religious right to screw little girls...

and i had to look a couple times at the poster name on throckmorton's post... i don't think i've ever seen a post of his that was like that before... add that to moonbeam 'defending' spalin and i was wondering if it was really april 1, not 10...
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8610491.stm

Is anyone else of the opinion that tolerance has its limits, and that we need to start policing islam, and to a lesser extent, the other religions? To hold them in a legal status of constant suspicion?

We already police them. Equally along with non-muslims. In fact, had this have happened in the USA, the perp would be locked up for sex with a minor and who knows what else. So Im not sure what you mean. If you mean trying to enforce our laws on another country, then, no. We shouldnt. No matter how mainus the thing.
 

Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
23
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How is that even possible unless other objects were used. :(

By that age many women are already able to have children(not that it is safe to do so).

At any rate that is messed up. :(
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
-snip-
I bet you'd find more 8 year olds getting raped by Appalachian hillbillies than by Muslims in this country. When do we start policing hicks?

Easy bro, I live in the Appalachian Moutains.

They have extremely tough laws for any of that kind of activity.

Fern
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
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0
We already police them. Equally along with non-muslims. In fact, had this have happened in the USA, the perp would be locked up for sex with a minor and who knows what else. So Im not sure what you mean. If you mean trying to enforce our laws on another country, then, no. We shouldnt. No matter how mainus the thing.

I didn't word it as well as I'd have liked. Essentially my thrust was that we need to change how we look at religion. If someone believes black helicopters are out to get him and the government is run by a secret cabal of underground spies with the intent of world domination, we call him a nut...

But if someone has religious beliefs, no matter how ludicrous, we "respect" them by looking the other way. And - give an inch, they take a mile - they take advantage of it and commit heinous crimes under the protection & cover of their religion.

A good start would be taxing religion, it would definitely help change the public perception of religion. Past that, strict regulations and routine unannouced inspections and questioning of altar boys (and of any children involved in non-christian religions past being dragged along by their parents). Taxes to pay would also lower the amount of money they have to spend on abuse coverups.

I am talking about this country only, of course. We have no jurisdiction in others, and of course invading them isn't a good option. Our habits and viewpoints often tend to trickle down to the rest of the world. Even many people in the largely anti-west muslim world cherrypick things they do like about western society to adopt. Perhaps the muslim perception is that 'raping little girls is fine; after all, the christians rape little boys, isn't that worse?'
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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I didn't word it as well as I'd have liked. Essentially my thrust was that we need to change how we look at religion. If someone believes black helicopters are out to get him and the government is run by a secret cabal of underground spies with the intent of world domination, we call him a nut...

But if someone has religious beliefs, no matter how ludicrous, we "respect" them by looking the other way. And - give an inch, they take a mile - they take advantage of it and commit heinous crimes under the protection & cover of their religion.

A good start would be taxing religion, it would definitely help change the public perception of religion. Past that, strict regulations and routine unannouced inspections and questioning of altar boys (and of any children involved in non-christian religions past being dragged along by their parents).

I am talking about this country only, of course. We have no jurisdiction in others, and of course invading them isn't a good option. Our habits and viewpoints often tend to trickle down to the rest of the world. Even many people in the largely anti-west muslim world cherrypick things they do like about western society to adopt. Perhaps the muslim perception is that 'raping little girls is fine; after all, the christians rape little boys, isn't that worse?'

I see. I wholeheartedly disagree. The way we respect other religions is by letting them practice within the laws of the USA. We dont generally turn a blind eye. Laws apply to the religious just like everyone else. Do blind eye's happen? Sure. But they happen everywhere. But thats no reason to target religion as a whole.

I will agree to disagree about your tax idea. Thats been discussed ad nauseum. As far as randomly questioning alter boys...how would you feel about randomly questioning muslims and their families to make sure they arent extremists with malicious intent? Right. Not a good idea. Your ideas frankly come from fear and predjudice and have no place in our country.
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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106
-snip-
But if someone has religious beliefs, no matter how ludicrous, we "respect" them by looking the other way. And - give an inch, they take a mile - they take advantage of it and commit heinous crimes under the protection & cover of their religion.

Do have any examples of this "crimes under the protection & cover of their religion"?

Seems to me that they are prosecuted. I recall that rogue Mormon group out West that used to marry off young girls etc. I recall them being rounded up and all the kids taken away etc.

A good start would be taxing religion, it would definitely help change the public perception of religion. Past that, strict regulations and routine unannouced inspections and questioning of altar boys (and of any children involved in non-christian religions past being dragged along by their parents).

Umm, you can't tax religion. You could remove the itemized deduction for contributions to churches etc., but you can't tax religion.

Re: unannounced inspections and questioning etc, you might wanna refresh yourself on the 4th Amendment (unreasonable search & seizure). You can't treat religious people as some sub-class with fewer rights than the rest of us (equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment).

Fern
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
If she was 7 or 8, yes. But post pubescent =! pedophilia.

I can't post an example because I'm at work right now. Do a google image search (with SAFE SEARCH ON) for "13 year old" and see what that looks like. Anyone wanting to sleep with that is a pedophile. I'm not going by a textbook definition on this.

edit
Don't do this at work. I don't want anyone getting fired ;)
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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I can't post an example because I'm at work right now. Do a google image search (with SAFE SEARCH ON) for "13 year old" and see what that looks like. Anyone wanting to sleep with that is a pedophile. I'm not going by a textbook definition on this.

edit
Don't do this at work. I don't want anyone getting fired ;)

13th result doing what you suggested.

773.jpg


Biologically, I want to hit it. It's our absolutely natural human instinct. Socially, we curb our enthusiasm for such admissions, but they remain always true.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
bigger question is why does the west pay for food aid supporting these countries while pretending we aren't morally enabling these practices.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
13th result doing what you suggested.



Biologically, I want to hit it. It's our absolutely natural human instinct. Socially, we curb our enthusiasm for such admissions, but they remain always true.

Yep. Attraction to a 13, 14, or 15 year old disgusts us because its the law. The law shapes what we perceive as right and wrong. Go to a country where AOC is much lower and you will understand this. Nobody even thinks twice. Congrats ShawnD1 on a succesful brainwash ;)
 
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Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
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81

Wait so that's a 13 year old?

I am going to have to card like everyone now wont I? :(
Stupid people physically maturing much sooner.

Seriously though I've seen college chicks look nearly identical.
I've even seen students here look younger then that. :(
 
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May 16, 2000
13,522
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Wait so that's a 13 year old?

I am going to have to card like everyone now wont I? :(
Stupid people physically maturing much sooner.

Seriously though I've seen college chicks look nearly identical.

My niece looked more mature than that by 12. She started developing at 11. Not common, but it does happen. Anatomically there's very little difference between a female just past puberty and one at full adulthood. It's not until after child-bearing (or barring that menopause) that significant changes take place.

Humans are designed to want to screw whatever is available past puberty. While there are very good logical arguments for socially restricting such urges, at least somewhat, it's lunacy to deny that the drive exists.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Take a look through almost any S American, European, or Asian modeling agency and they are filled with 14, 15, and 16 year olds. Adrianna Lima was discovered at 13. She won the Ford Brazilian supermodel contest at 15. Alessandra Ambrosio modeled for Dilson Stein at 15. Tyra Banks started with Elite at 17. Kate Moss at 15. Devon Aoki modeled for Lancome, Chanel, and Versace at 14. And on and on and on. And if you were dig up pics of any of these ladies at those ages, you wouldnt know any different.
 
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CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
I see. I wholeheartedly disagree. The way we respect other religions is by letting them practice within the laws of the USA. We dont generally turn a blind eye. Laws apply to the religious just like everyone else. Do blind eye's happen? Sure. But they happen everywhere. But thats no reason to target religion as a whole.

I will agree to disagree about your tax idea. Thats been discussed ad nauseum. As far as randomly questioning alter boys...how would you feel about randomly questioning muslims and their families to make sure they arent extremists with malicious intent? Right. Not a good idea. Your ideas frankly come from fear and predjudice and have no place in our country.

Do have any examples of this "crimes under the protection & cover of their religion"?

Seems to me that they are prosecuted. I recall that rogue Mormon group out West that used to marry off young girls etc. I recall them being rounded up and all the kids taken away etc.



Umm, you can't tax religion. You could remove the itemized deduction for contributions to churches etc., but you can't tax religion.

Re: unannounced inspections and questioning etc, you might wanna refresh yourself on the 4th Amendment (unreasonable search & seizure). You can't treat religious people as some sub-class with fewer rights than the rest of us (equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment).

Fern

Erm, have you guys been reading the news lately concerning the Vatican's coverups of child abuse? One bishop even went so far as to claim the children were seducing the priests lol... http://www.religiongonecrazy.com/crazy-bishop-of-tenerife-blames-child-abuse-on-the-children/ Regardless of what the law should, and debatably would, do if it got its hands on priest abusers, the fact is it often doesn't.

Big religions enjoy an above-the-law status. Sure, they went after Mormons, as they went after David Koresh - neither had enough followers to deter police. But the pope? Imagine for a second a nationwide daycare chain's CEO was guilty of complicity in child abuse dating back 25 years - we'd send him to the chair so fast the seat of his pants would smoke. The pope did it though, and he's iving it up in Rome, scot free. Only a few radical atheists are even calling it like it is; most people are so caught up in the machine of religious power they can't even see the part they play.

I would be fine with profiling religious people. We already profile the 15-25 age group and racial minorities, and no one says a thing about that. The police routinely abuse their power of discretion to perform unlawful search & siezure, and usually for victimless drug crimes. Religious crimes generally involve explosives and sex with children - if the end justifies the means then I think if it has to happen, I'd rather have them searching people with fish bumperstickers than people with Grateful Dead ones.

I didn't mean we should actively tax religion, though looking back that's what it sounded like. I meant we should remove their tax-exempt status. But I get the feeling from the first reply that it's a dead horse in this forum, and I admittedly don't know the unwritten rules here so I won't push it.

If she was 7 or 8, yes. But post pubescent =! pedophilia.
13 isn't necessarily post-puberty, though it's extremely likely. Regardless, she bled to death so at the very best it was likely forcible and violent rape. Then there was this one from a while back in Saudi Arabia: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/12/saudi.child.marriage/ I can see a few bad apples going around and this sort of thing happening, but the judge OKing it once, and again on appeal, tells me a lot about that religion & culture. After all, they're only going by what their holy text says.

Edit: Updates on the story suggest it was indeed violent rape: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100410/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_yemen_child_bride
 
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