120hz does it matter for gaming on an LCD?

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: erwos
The only thing 120hz is good for is displaying 24hz sources without dropping or inserting frames. Everything else is a gimmick, and usually an annoying one.

Thats just not true. I love my Sony 120hz for gaming on my 360.

It can take a 30fps game and relatively convincingly interpolate it to 120hz. The end result is usually fairly amazing, and looks almost as good as a true 120fps, but it varies from game to game.

The game needs to hold an absolute *constant* 30fps, or else the TV will get confused and fall back to just 30fps instead of 120hz.

It also works much better on broad movements, so the environment will be perfectly smooth, but characters quick movements wont be as convincingly interpolated.

Some examples:

Gears of War/Left 4 Dead/Bioshock - very good. Only seems to drop back to 30fps in bursts when things really get heavy.

GTA IV/Oblivion/Fallout - Rather epic fail. These game dont hold their frame rates perfectly steady, so it goes smooth only in spurts and gets distracting.

PGR 3/4 - Amazing. Since the entire screen is basically an environment and cars dont have arms/legs that articulate quickly, you'd be hard pressed to tell it isnt actually running at a true 120fps on the box.

The interpolation adds lag, but its very minor. It adds a frame of lag, so for 30fps games, it's roughly 33ms. It's barely perceptible, and it doesnt effect play at all. So minor that I dont even bother turning it off for any game, even for 60fps twitchy games like Soul Calibur 4 or COD 4, although in those cases, it only adds about 16ms of lag.

I'm a frame rate whore. I know it when I see it. There's little difference between 60fps and 120fps, but a vast difference between 30fps and 60fps. I can hardly bear to play anything at 30fps anymore.

I cant speak for other sets than my own Sony, but it's no gimmick. It's rather awesome, and works great 90% of the time. Sure, there are a few drawbacks, and some artifacts, but its such a vast improvement that its SO worth it.

You have to see it in person to be really convinced though. Unfortunately there's no good demo videos on the net, aside from a few boneheads that tried to film the effect with a camcorder (fail), and then encode it in a 30fps video (double fail). You'd need a 60fps video to see the effect, and that's virtually nonexistent.

Don't take anyone's word on it that doesnt actually have a 120hz set with good interpolation. I have a feeling most of the detractors dont actually have personal experience with it, and I'd be saying the same thing as they are until I got it for myself. It sounds too good to be true, and there's no denying it adds a wee bit of lag. But its worth it.

Not to mention its great for film too. 1080p Planet Earth at 120fps....incredible.

 

[s44]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Not to mention its great for film too.

OK, I was with you until this point. It looks *horrible* with film.

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: erwos
The only thing 120hz is good for is displaying 24hz sources without dropping or inserting frames. Everything else is a gimmick, and usually an annoying one.

Thats just not true. I love my Sony 120hz for gaming on my 360.

You're welcome to your opinions, but I have a Sony A3000 SXRD, which does 120hz, and turning on any kind of processing (naturalizer or enhancer) completely kills timing dependent games. Guitar Hero or Rock Band just don't work correctly. I definitely think there's more than a frame of lag involved here.

Sorry, but gimmick, except maybe on live shows like sports. That's my opinion. I would _not_ buy one of these TVs expecting frame interpolation to do very much.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: s44

Originally posted by: BD2003
Not to mention its great for film too.

OK, I was with you until this point. It looks *horrible* with film.

Its an acquired taste. I really didnt like it at first, but once you get over the initial shock, you come to see what you've been missing. I still go back and forth with it on movies as the artifacts can get quite noticeable with humans in frame, but on documentaries like planet earth, it really adds a lot to it.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: erwos
The only thing 120hz is good for is displaying 24hz sources without dropping or inserting frames. Everything else is a gimmick, and usually an annoying one.

Thats just not true. I love my Sony 120hz for gaming on my 360.

You're welcome to your opinions, but I have a Sony A3000 SXRD, which does 120hz, and turning on any kind of processing (naturalizer or enhancer) completely kills timing dependent games. Guitar Hero or Rock Band just don't work correctly. I definitely think there's more than a frame of lag involved here.

Sorry, but gimmick, except maybe on live shows like sports. That's my opinion. I would _not_ buy one of these TVs expecting frame interpolation to do very much.

I've got the same set. Rock band is the only game which I bother to turn game mode on (which disables the effects).

The problem with rock band specifically is that the notes run at 60fps, but the background graphics run at 24-30 fps. This confuses the hell out of the processor as it cant pick a single frame rate for the source, and ends up juddering like crazy, adding inconsistent spurts of interpolation and lag and just making an awful mess of things. Its really an exception to the rule though, because I cant think of any other game (or source) thats effectively running two different frame rates at once. You just cant use rock band to judge the lag.

I really only perceive the added lag when I toggle back and forth between game mode and motion enhancer. In the midst of a game, I just dont notice it, and it hasnt affected my K/D ratio in the slightest.

Either way, this is all going to be so subjective, and unfortunately, its nearly impossible to find out if you'll like it until you've bought it.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: erwos
The only thing 120hz is good for is displaying 24hz sources without dropping or inserting frames. Everything else is a gimmick, and usually an annoying one.

Thats just not true. I love my Sony 120hz for gaming on my 360.

You're welcome to your opinions, but I have a Sony A3000 SXRD, which does 120hz, and turning on any kind of processing (naturalizer or enhancer) completely kills timing dependent games. Guitar Hero or Rock Band just don't work correctly. I definitely think there's more than a frame of lag involved here.

Sorry, but gimmick, except maybe on live shows like sports. That's my opinion. I would _not_ buy one of these TVs expecting frame interpolation to do very much.

I've got the same set. Rock band is the only game which I bother to turn game mode on (which disables the effects).

The problem with rock band specifically is that the notes run at 60fps, but the background graphics run at 24-30 fps. This confuses the hell out of the processor as it cant pick a single frame rate for the source, and ends up juddering like crazy, adding inconsistent spurts of interpolation and lag and just making an awful mess of things. Its really an exception to the rule though, because I cant think of any other game (or source) thats effectively running two different frame rates at once. You just cant use rock band to judge the lag.

I really only perceive the added lag when I toggle back and forth between game mode and motion enhancer. In the midst of a game, I just dont notice it, and it hasnt affected my K/D ratio in the slightest.

Either way, this is all going to be so subjective, and unfortunately, its nearly impossible to find out if you'll like it until you've bought it.

err, how does that work? the signal has to be 1 frame rate.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: erwos
The only thing 120hz is good for is displaying 24hz sources without dropping or inserting frames. Everything else is a gimmick, and usually an annoying one.

Thats just not true. I love my Sony 120hz for gaming on my 360.

You're welcome to your opinions, but I have a Sony A3000 SXRD, which does 120hz, and turning on any kind of processing (naturalizer or enhancer) completely kills timing dependent games. Guitar Hero or Rock Band just don't work correctly. I definitely think there's more than a frame of lag involved here.

Sorry, but gimmick, except maybe on live shows like sports. That's my opinion. I would _not_ buy one of these TVs expecting frame interpolation to do very much.

I've got the same set. Rock band is the only game which I bother to turn game mode on (which disables the effects).

The problem with rock band specifically is that the notes run at 60fps, but the background graphics run at 24-30 fps. This confuses the hell out of the processor as it cant pick a single frame rate for the source, and ends up juddering like crazy, adding inconsistent spurts of interpolation and lag and just making an awful mess of things. Its really an exception to the rule though, because I cant think of any other game (or source) thats effectively running two different frame rates at once. You just cant use rock band to judge the lag.

I really only perceive the added lag when I toggle back and forth between game mode and motion enhancer. In the midst of a game, I just dont notice it, and it hasnt affected my K/D ratio in the slightest.

Either way, this is all going to be so subjective, and unfortunately, its nearly impossible to find out if you'll like it until you've bought it.

err, how does that work? the signal has to be 1 frame rate.

Pretty much every signal sent to a TV is sent at 60hz. As in, the screen refreshes 60 times a second. So if it updates every refresh, it's 60fps. Every other refresh, its 30fps. Every third and then every second makes 24fps.

In order for the interpolation to work, it has to detect the underlying frame rate by monitoring how often the 60hz signal is changing, which can be easier said than done.

So in rock band, the little colored notes are updating every refresh. But the band and crowd and all that in the background is updating every other refresh. The TV cant get a grip on whats going on, it thinks it's 30fps this second, 60fps the next, and it goes a bit haywire constantly changing its behavior, which makes it very difficult to play a timing based game. Its a worst case scenario, but it's rather unique that way.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: sdifox
err, how does that work? the signal has to be 1 frame rate.

Pretty much every signal sent to a TV is sent at 60hz. As in, the screen refreshes 60 times a second. So if it updates every refresh, it's 60fps. Every other refresh, its 30fps. Every third and then every second makes 24fps.

In order for the interpolation to work, it has to detect the underlying frame rate by monitoring how often the 60hz signal is changing, which can be easier said than done.

So in rock band, the little colored notes are updating every refresh. But the band and crowd and all that in the background is updating every other refresh. The TV cant get a grip on whats going on, it thinks it's 30fps this second, 60fps the next, and it goes a bit haywire constantly changing its behavior, which makes it very difficult to play a timing based game. Its a worst case scenario, but it's rather unique that way.

I did not know a signal is split that way when it is processed. I understand there are frames that are repeated, but I figured the signal sent to the panel is still 60 (or 120) frame total.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: sdifox
err, how does that work? the signal has to be 1 frame rate.

Pretty much every signal sent to a TV is sent at 60hz. As in, the screen refreshes 60 times a second. So if it updates every refresh, it's 60fps. Every other refresh, its 30fps. Every third and then every second makes 24fps.

In order for the interpolation to work, it has to detect the underlying frame rate by monitoring how often the 60hz signal is changing, which can be easier said than done.

So in rock band, the little colored notes are updating every refresh. But the band and crowd and all that in the background is updating every other refresh. The TV cant get a grip on whats going on, it thinks it's 30fps this second, 60fps the next, and it goes a bit haywire constantly changing its behavior, which makes it very difficult to play a timing based game. Its a worst case scenario, but it's rather unique that way.

I did not know a signal is split that way when it is processed. I understand there are frames that are repeated, but I figured the signal sent to the panel is still 60 (or 120) frame total.

Well, you're right. The signal isnt split. The signal sent to the panel IS always 60hz. Rock band is just an odd case...the background is repeating images, the notes in the foreground are not. So it's still technically 60fps, but it has a 30fps (or 24fps, not sure) component to it.

Since the signal going to the panel is always 60hz, it needs to analyze the image to determine the true frame rate of the source, since nothing is blatantly telling it what the frame rate currently is. It has a difficult time doing so with rock band.

I know, it couldnt possibly be more confusing. Think about how the poor TV feels.

 

[Noubourne]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: sdifox
err, how does that work? the signal has to be 1 frame rate.

Pretty much every signal sent to a TV is sent at 60hz. As in, the screen refreshes 60 times a second. So if it updates every refresh, it's 60fps. Every other refresh, its 30fps. Every third and then every second makes 24fps.

In order for the interpolation to work, it has to detect the underlying frame rate by monitoring how often the 60hz signal is changing, which can be easier said than done.

So in rock band, the little colored notes are updating every refresh. But the band and crowd and all that in the background is updating every other refresh. The TV cant get a grip on whats going on, it thinks it's 30fps this second, 60fps the next, and it goes a bit haywire constantly changing its behavior, which makes it very difficult to play a timing based game. Its a worst case scenario, but it's rather unique that way.

I did not know a signal is split that way when it is processed. I understand there are frames that are repeated, but I figured the signal sent to the panel is still 60 (or 120) frame total.

Well, you're right. The signal isnt split. The signal sent to the panel IS always 60hz. Rock band is just an odd case...the background is repeating images, the notes in the foreground are not. So it's still technically 60fps, but it has a 30fps (or 24fps, not sure) component to it.

Since the signal going to the panel is always 60hz, it needs to analyze the image to determine the true frame rate of the source, since nothing is blatantly telling it what the frame rate currently is. It has a difficult time doing so with rock band.

I know, it couldnt possibly be more confusing. Think about how the poor TV feels.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

120hz is ONLY useful for some Blu Ray movies, and when the screen pans smoothly from side to side, it will seem to "jump" on 60hz TVs because 24hz is not divisible into 60 as was previously explained. This is 3:2 pulldown - meaning it displays one frame 3 times and the next twice (to get that 24 into 60), and so on and so forth. During smooth side-to-side motion, you can most easily notice it. Some people don't notice it - or don't notice until you point it out to them.

Video signals are 60hz as previously stated. OTA broadcast, cable, satellite, and game systems are not affected. Of course, the exception is the PS3 - but ONLY when being used as a Blu-Ray player with 24hz source material.

I don't know who BD2003 is, but he is posting a massive amount of mis-information to explain why he sucks at Rock Band. I would be nicer, but unfortunately he is unabashedly posting bs as if he knows what he is talking about.

If you don't know, then be quiet and pay attention - you might learn something. You do no one any service by posting inaccurate information. Have some respect for the posters here and the integrity of the forum.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Noubourne

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sorry bro, if you want to make it personal, you're the one who's wrong.

120hz is ONLY useful for some Blu Ray movies, and when the screen pans smoothly from side to side, it will seem to "jump" on 60hz TVs because 24hz is not divisible into 60 as was previously explained. This is 3:2 pulldown - meaning it displays one frame 3 times and the next twice (to get that 24 into 60), and so on and so forth. During smooth side-to-side motion, you can most easily notice it. Some people don't notice it - or don't notice until you point it out to them.

Right. 120hz alone will do exactly that, and is barely noticeable IMO. Thats why the conversation has turned towards the interpolation that most (if not all) 120hz TVs feature.

Thats the feature that is worth discussing, and it's the one that divides people, because it makes such a radical change to what you're seeing.

Video signals are 60hz as previously stated. OTA broadcast, cable, satellite, and game systems are not affected. Of course, the exception is the PS3 - but ONLY when being used as a Blu-Ray player with 24hz source material.

Wrong. 120hz isnt only for 24hz blu-ray alone. Thats an absurd statement. 24fps can be detected from a standard 60hz source as well, on my set the feature is called "cinemotion", it's more broadly known as inverse telecine (but specifically for interlaced sources such as DVD). I'm sure virtually all 120hz sets have this functionality, on progressive or interlaced sources. This is *basic*. If you are not aware of this, you have no place questioning anyone's knowledge in this area. Again, its as barely noticeable as a true a 24hz signal, but the 120hz feature works for DVDs or any other 24fps source, such as films on TV.

I know it works in practice, even if its usually too subtle to detect by eye: if I hook up my HTPC at 60hz, and move the mouse cursor around on the desktop, it's smooth. If I playback a 24fps DVD at full screen, and then move the cursor around, it'll be choppy, running at the same frame rate as the film. The TV has detected a 24fps source, and "fallen back" to 24hz mode for the entire screen essentially, although usually after a matter of time it breaks off and the mouse cursor is smooth again. This is actually fairly similar to the rock band situation - a 60hz signal is playing back a 24fps movie with a 60fps mouse cursor swinging around in the foreground. The TV cant properly detect the underlying frame rate, and rapidly alternates between 24hz and 60hz mode.

And of course, this is integral to the interpolation. Before it can add frames, it needs to know the underlying frame rate of the source, which as Noubourne correctly noted, is almost always coming down a 60hz signal. Turn the frame rate detection off (cinemotion), and the interpolation essentially won't work for film/games.

I don't know who BD2003 is, but he is posting a massive amount of mis-information to explain why he sucks at Rock Band. I would be nicer, but unfortunately he is unabashedly posting bs as if he knows what he is talking about.

If you don't know, then be quiet and pay attention - you might learn something. You do no one any service by posting inaccurate information. Have some respect for the posters here and the integrity of the forum.

I dont know who you are either, and why you're being a condescending asshole and making it personal. Everything I've said is 100% dead on, and I'm 100% sure of it. Opinions are opinions, and those may certainly be divided on the interpolation, but my facts are straight, although it seems you may not have read carefully enough to understand that most of what I said I was referring to the interpolation and not the raw 120hz feature.

So calm yourself down, and next time you're gonna go attack someone's credibility, make sure YOU'RE not the one who's full of it. Now if you've got something else productive to say, leave the smug bullshit out.

And just for the record, I could probably mop the floor with you in rock band, on any instrument.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

I have a Samsung LN46A650. Here are my gaming observations:
120 in itself will not do anything because the games are Vsync'ed to 60fps.
If I turn on A.M.P. games look amazing -- like if they Were 120 FPS. However, this introduces unbearable lag for fast paced games (slightly less than a second response time!). However, in a game like Pikmin or a Final Fantasy game, it is a big plus since fast movements aren't warranted.
To reduce lag, I have to use the "game" mode on the tv which removes every process which means you can't adjust the picture at all :-(

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: gersson
I have a Samsung LN46A650. Here are my gaming observations:
120 in itself will not do anything because the games are Vsync'ed to 60fps.
If I turn on A.M.P. games look amazing -- like if they Were 120 FPS. However, this introduces unbearable lag for fast paced games (slightly less than a second response time!). However, in a game like Pikmin or a Final Fantasy game, it is a big plus since fast movements aren't warranted.
To reduce lag, I have to use the "game" mode on the tv which removes every process which means you can't adjust the picture at all :-(

I really wish I could test some of the other competing interpolation technologies. From what I saw side by side in my local circuit city (RIP), the samsungs seemed to hold the 120fps between scene changes better than the Sony's, although the effect seemed a bit less convincing overall on the samsung. Obviously no way to compare input lag in store, but that would have been quite interesting.

I wish there was an objective test of input lag that reviewers included in the measurements when they review a set, but gaming is hardly ever mentioned in any professional display review in the first place.