12 of 13 states that raised minimum wage have almost 50% better job growth than

[werepossum]

Another report on how raising the min wage was a good thing; http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...inimum-wage-see-faster-job-growth-report-says

Looks like the defective minds that opposed this were indeed proven wrong: their cave man alarmist sensationalism does not belong in today's world. They are wrong.

EDIT: whoops - it looks like it is the same report,.. never mind. Or, should I edit it and pretend I wasn't being a fucking asshole for posting shit without reading it,.. what to do, what to do,..

lol +1

We've all been there, dude.

 

[Thebobo]

Or just maybe when you have more money you spend it and and when you do it takes more jobs to meet the demand cashiers waitress ditch diggers painter manager what ever. Bottom line despite what the right tells you we the consumer are a big part of Job Creation. We are Job creators.

 

[werepossum]

Or just maybe when you have more money you spend it and and when you do it takes more jobs to meet the demand cashiers waitress ditch diggers painter manager what ever. Bottom line despite what the right tells you we the consumer are a big part of Job Creation. We are Job creators.

I'd say consumers are not job creators, but rather the reason for job creation. No matter how much money one might have, one will only create a job if convinced that demand exists. (Or at least can be manufactured; obviously there wasn't much demand for pet rocks before pet rocks.) With regards to raising the minimum wage, I think it's largely a zero sum game. Some minimum wage employees will be out jobs, others will have more money, other consumers will have less money. Some borderline competitors will fold and their share of the market will be replaced with sounder competitors' increased business to meet the demand. Some money will be pulled from resource owners and handed over to employees. Some marginally feasible industries may fold, freeing up that money for other industries.

I originally said I was hesitant to raise minimum wage in this economy, but that's probably backward. Right now there's a lot of capital on the sidelines because of uncertainty and lack of demand. Considering that one effect (the intended effect) of raising the minimum wage is to shift wealth from owners to employees, this is probably the best time to raise the minimum wage as there is plenty of capital available. It will be rough on some employers though.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I'd say consumers are not job creators, but rather the reason for job creation. No matter how much money one might have, one will only create a job if convinced that demand exists. (Or at least can be manufactured; obviously there wasn't much demand for pet rocks before pet rocks.) With regards to raising the minimum wage, I think it's largely a zero sum game. Some minimum wage employees will be out jobs, others will have more money, other consumers will have less money. Some borderline competitors will fold and their share of the market will be replaced with sounder competitors' increased business to meet the demand. Some money will be pulled from resource owners and handed over to employees. Some marginally feasible industries may fold, freeing up that money for other industries.

I originally said I was hesitant to raise minimum wage in this economy, but that's probably backward. Right now there's a lot of capital on the sidelines because of uncertainty and lack of demand. Considering that one effect (the intended effect) of raising the minimum wage is to shift wealth from owners to employees, this is probably the best time to raise the minimum wage as there is plenty of capital available. It will be rough on some employers though.

Werepossum our thoughts are the same. This is a great summary. Bring on the crappers who will call us communists because we want to redistribute money. I feel tax policy should be the same, it should be structured to encourage spending now. Later when things are going great tax policy should encourage saving.

 

[Fayd]

The end of slavery actually improved the economy... somehow, the right wind seems to forget that

uh... might want to check history on that one.

the south was destroyed after the civil war. infrastructure was gone. the economy of the south was largely dependent on slavery, and after it ended, the southern economy fell into a massive depression that took a very long time to climb out of.

let's not make completely bullshit anecdotes and pass them off as facts, okay?

 

[Matt1970]

Or just maybe when you have more money you spend it and and when you do it takes more jobs to meet the demand cashiers waitress ditch diggers painter manager what ever. Bottom line despite what the right tells you we the consumer are a big part of Job Creation. We are Job creators.

Redistribution of wealth does not mean there is more money to spend. You are free to look back as far as you can find and with every increase in minimum wage you are not going to find spikes in GDP.

 

[realibrad]

I'd say consumers are not job creators, but rather the reason for job creation. No matter how much money one might have, one will only create a job if convinced that demand exists. (Or at least can be manufactured; obviously there wasn't much demand for pet rocks before pet rocks.) With regards to raising the minimum wage, I think it's largely a zero sum game. Some minimum wage employees will be out jobs, others will have more money, other consumers will have less money. Some borderline competitors will fold and their share of the market will be replaced with sounder competitors' increased business to meet the demand. Some money will be pulled from resource owners and handed over to employees. Some marginally feasible industries may fold, freeing up that money for other industries.

I originally said I was hesitant to raise minimum wage in this economy, but that's probably backward. Right now there's a lot of capital on the sidelines because of uncertainty and lack of demand. Considering that one effect (the intended effect) of raising the minimum wage is to shift wealth from owners to employees, this is probably the best time to raise the minimum wage as there is plenty of capital available. It will be rough on some employers though.

Noooooo! Don't go to the dark side.

So 2 things.
1st.
If you believe that collapsing an industry that is profitable on the margin will free up money to go to other slightly more profitable industries, then what happens to the workers who lose their jobs? You are advocating market destruction to redirect capital, but with a reduction in demand. If you believe an industry is a consumer of resources, and that its removal will free up resources, you then do not believe in the efficiency of markets. If the industry was making a profit, even small, it was putting out more than it was taking in. Its removal will reduce wealth without a new alternative. Any previous alternative if better, would have already taken over the market.

2nd.
Minimum wage works off the idea that collectively the workers do not have the power to fully negotiate for higher wages. The government then steps in to institute a labor price floor that all must be paid. Instead of just paying people x amount, why not fix the problem. The A asymmetry of information is what is holding back these laborers. Set up an exchange where low wage labor can look for other jobs that pay more. Allow the labor to go to higher paying jobs, and force the employers to compete.

 

[zephyrprime]

Instead of leveraging our status as the world's most desired market, politicians of both stripes (gratuitous skunk reference intentionally inserted) have continually negotiated trade agreements as a sort of national apology, intentionally accepting systemic and systematic disadvantages. We're fast losing our status as the world's most desired market, so I don't see how continued "free" trade does anything but finish destroying our nation. We're simply losing our leverage before ever using it.

This is not because we are issuing a "national apology". At most, some politicians may use that excuse as a cover for their activities and thus pander to the left. However, in reality, the politicians are self serving sociopaths who are just looking to line their own pockets by selling out to corporate interests.

 

[MetalMat]

I wish they would show the list of states with data.

 

[werepossum]

Werepossum our thoughts are the same. This is a great summary. Bring on the crappers who will call us communists because we want to redistribute money. I feel tax policy should be the same, it should be structured to encourage spending now. Later when things are going great tax policy should encourage saving.

Well - I wouldn't say I WANT to redistribute money. I oppose that philosophically. It's a duology of ideas, a recognition that if we must redistribute money this might be a better time to do so than I had previously thought, and a recognition that one's philosophy does not fit all situations if one is honest. Nonetheless minimum wage is not really a form of redistribution that gets me up in arms, not like seizing it and redistributing it.

Noooooo! Don't go to the dark side.

So 2 things.
1st.
If you believe that collapsing an industry that is profitable on the margin will free up money to go to other slightly more profitable industries, then what happens to the workers who lose their jobs? You are advocating market destruction to redirect capital, but with a reduction in demand. If you believe an industry is a consumer of resources, and that its removal will free up resources, you then do not believe in the efficiency of markets. If the industry was making a profit, even small, it was putting out more than it was taking in. Its removal will reduce wealth without a new alternative. Any previous alternative if better, would have already taken over the market.

2nd.
Minimum wage works off the idea that collectively the workers do not have the power to fully negotiate for higher wages. The government then steps in to institute a labor price floor that all must be paid. Instead of just paying people x amount, why not fix the problem. The A asymmetry of information is what is holding back these laborers. Set up an exchange where low wage labor can look for other jobs that pay more. Allow the labor to go to higher paying jobs, and force the employers to compete.

1st - I'm not advocating collapsing industries that are marginally profitable, just recognizing that in the course of pursuing other valuable ends such collapsing inevitably occurs. Government acts with a sledgehammer, not a scalpel. As to the workers, they will be displaced as with any collapsing industry. Some are wealth producers (e.g. buggy whip manufacturers) that leave society with a net negative in wealth, but most are probably service industries that consume wealth to provide non-tangible things people want. For the latter, the money not spent on their products will probably be spent on other products, thus with little or no total effect. For the former, I doubt there will be significant amounts of wealth lost, else they would not be marginal. Marginal industries tend to be dying industries or start-up industries. Marginal businesses in healthy industries tend to have bad business models and from a pure market standpoint may even represent an increase in efficiency. (Not that there can't still be bad results; independent businessmen being driven out of business in favor of the more efficient chains is not necessarily a good thing even if overall efficiency rises as part of inefficiency is workers being paid more than is sustainable.)

This is not because we are issuing a "national apology". At most, some politicians may use that excuse as a cover for their activities and thus pander to the left. However, in reality, the politicians are self serving sociopaths who are just looking to line their own pockets by selling out to corporate interests.

Maybe, but I don't see most politicians really benefitting from the disparity in, say, used car tariffs or disparate requirements for local ownership or content.