1080p Camcorder needed

brotj7

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
206
0
71
I don't know if I should post this at the end of Kaido's guide, or in it's own post so I don't derail his guide.

Any 1080p camcorder recommendations at $1500-$3500? Absolute maximum total budget is $5K, and I would like that to include editing software, unipod/tripod, detachable light, a few filters, and a directional mic if possible. Of course under $5K is appreciated.

History with digital camcorders:
I have had a Samsung SD(don't remember the model) that threw errors onto every SD card I ever used, and a junky Sony 720p that adds an orange hugh to everything including our wedding video(was ~$500 in 2008, don't remember model on this off the top of my head either). Now we are looking for something with better build quality, sound, and of course accurate color.

In 2009 there were 30fps 1080p on the market, is 60fps 1080p common/affordable these days? I would like to shoot as close to lossless as possible in this price range. We have plenty of storage, 10TB+ of HD space, 3x 16gb+ SD cards & multiple smaller ones. Playback will be from a home server or blurays that we create for family and friends. Editing software would be format dependent, but I don't really want to spend more than $1500 on software total. Thanks in advance everybody.
 

sswingle

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2000
7,183
45
91
Are you comfortable with manual controls, or do you want something more point and shoot? Give us an idea where to start.
 

brotj7

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
206
0
71
I believe I would be comfortable with a manual, but manual with an auto option would be better if it is even available. The Samsung and Sony I have owned were point and shoot only, and I find myself wanting more every time I have used them. Having a viewfinder which would be able to meter on a shape and get color and focus close, then allow me to override to get any effects I want from a particular shoot would be awesome.

Image stabilzation, and the option for shoulder mounting for stability(maybe with an attachment), and a secondary screen for playback would be good too.

I guess I'm looking for a semi-pro/entry level pro camcorder, so I can grow with it and not need to buy another one in two years.

Thanks all
-Robb
 

brotj7

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
206
0
71
We would like to get a camcorder this week as out babys first birthday and Baptism is next Sunday(yes the baptism is a little late, we are 2 hrs away from our family and have just got everyone together in the same city for it).

So far I am looking at the Cannon XF100 http://usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/camcorders/professional_camcorders/xf100

Anyone have experience with this line? It does 1920x1080, (60i/30p/24p), and 1280x720 (60p/30p/24p). Is this typical in this price range? I would have thought 1920x1080 at 60P for this kind of price. I like that this can attach a directional mic, wide angle lenses, and can take 2x CF cards which can be hot swapped. Any suggestions?

I already have the CS4 Master Collection from when I was a student last year. Honestly, I have only used photoshop, Dreamweaver, and flash, do I really need to upgrade to CS5 like Cannons website lists?

I am brand Agnostic, I just happend to notice the "professional" line so I have been running with this Idea. Thanks for any suggestions.

-Robb
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
0
0
I don't know if I should post this at the end of Kaido's guide, or in it's own post so I don't derail his guide.

Any 1080p camcorder recommendations at $1500-$3500? Absolute maximum total budget is $5K, and I would like that to include editing software, unipod/tripod, detachable light, a few filters, and a directional mic if possible. Of course under $5K is appreciated.

History with digital camcorders:
I have had a Samsung SD(don't remember the model) that threw errors onto every SD card I ever used, and a junky Sony 720p that adds an orange hugh to everything including our wedding video(was ~$500 in 2008, don't remember model on this off the top of my head either). Now we are looking for something with better build quality, sound, and of course accurate color.

In 2009 there were 30fps 1080p on the market, is 60fps 1080p common/affordable these days? I would like to shoot as close to lossless as possible in this price range. We have plenty of storage, 10TB+ of HD space, 3x 16gb+ SD cards & multiple smaller ones. Playback will be from a home server or blurays that we create for family and friends. Editing software would be format dependent, but I don't really want to spend more than $1500 on software total. Thanks in advance everybody.

I have heard good things about this sony:

http://www.adorama.com/SONEXVG10D.ht...e=rflAID021866

Ken Rockwell points out that the demo/refurb is at a pretty good price.

Personally, I might go for a 5D spending some money on upgrades to enhance the video. You'd also have a great DSLR. Check out these guys:

http://cinema5d.com/index.php

I much prefer Nikon for stills, but if I was really into video the 5D is pretty cool.

JR
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
49,290
5,838
136
I don't know if I should post this at the end of Kaido's guide, or in it's own post so I don't derail his guide.

Any 1080p camcorder recommendations at $1500-$3500? Absolute maximum total budget is $5K, and I would like that to include editing software, unipod/tripod, detachable light, a few filters, and a directional mic if possible. Of course under $5K is appreciated.

History with digital camcorders:
I have had a Samsung SD(don't remember the model) that threw errors onto every SD card I ever used, and a junky Sony 720p that adds an orange hugh to everything including our wedding video(was ~$500 in 2008, don't remember model on this off the top of my head either). Now we are looking for something with better build quality, sound, and of course accurate color.

In 2009 there were 30fps 1080p on the market, is 60fps 1080p common/affordable these days? I would like to shoot as close to lossless as possible in this price range. We have plenty of storage, 10TB+ of HD space, 3x 16gb+ SD cards & multiple smaller ones. Playback will be from a home server or blurays that we create for family and friends. Editing software would be format dependent, but I don't really want to spend more than $1500 on software total. Thanks in advance everybody.

Guide's a bit outdated, haha. Happy to answer some questions though! :awe: One camcorder that I thought was really neat is the Panasonic TM700. You get 1080/60p and an f/1.5 - 2.8 Leica 35mm wide-angle lens. Some samples:

http://vimeo.com/17283227

http://vimeo.com/19087360

http://vimeo.com/10663338

It looks like there may be a newer version out:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-...corders.list.173042_11002_7000000000000005702

A couple shots from the TM900 model listed on Panasonic's product page:

http://vimeo.com/23013471

http://vimeo.com/24013743

What kind of stuff will you be shooting? Since you already have a budget in mind, that determines the camera & gear you'll be going with. Check out the Cheesycam blog for lots of budget-oriented goodies:

http://cheesycam.com/

For $3500, you can do a lot - but again, what you choose depends on your budget. One of my best investments so far has been a Sanken COS-11D lav mic ($450, used on most movies & TV shows - don't need someone to hold a boom mic with this!) paired with a Tascam HD-P2 audio recorder ($750, probably the cheapest broadcast-spec recorder you can get away with). I run an RCA-to-Minijack cable into my camcorder for a secondary track and to sync later with the Pluraleyes audio/video sync software. Even if I'm using a cheapo camera, I can get stellar audio, which is more important than the video quality in most cases.

Just to throw some stuff out: I'd definitely go with a tripod that has a fluid head. And a Gorillapod. ePhoto makes some really great LED lights (the new ones are dimmable 600/900/1200-LED models) and there are plenty of great dimmable on-camera LED lights out now (100-300 LED range). The new tiny cameras give incredible picture quality, so you can pretty easily build up a mounting system for steadicam, shoulder-mount, handheld, etc.

My favorite steadicam for small cameras is the Blackbird ($645) from Camera Motion (my absolute favorite camera toy):

http://www.camotionllc.com/

Opteka makes the X-Grip, a really nice (and cheap! - $35) handle grip for most small cameras:

http://www.amazon.com/Opteka-Profess.../dp/B003PBB4ME

I use Sony Vegas at work and Final Cut Pro at home. I like both, although I prefer the Mac platform a lot more. Adobe Premiere is also pretty good if you don't want to get into the Avid range. If you're a PC guy and want a suite for a good price, you can't beat Vegas Pro 10 ($600 for the online download version). They give you a ridiculous amount of tools in a nice, integrated suite: video editing, audio editing, DVD & Blu-ray authoring, etc. Linkage:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro

You can get plugins & other tools as well; PixelLan has AnyFX for only $29: (nice for quick color grades - and that can help remove the orange tint on your previous videos too!)

http://www.pixelan.com/afx/intro.htm

All kinds of fun toys out there, just depends on what you want to do :) So what kind of projects do you have in mind?
 

brotj7

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
206
0
71
That Phantom Flex looks awesome, I should prolly get the wife a Bently 1st tho.. ;)

Needs:
We are pretty active, shots will be family, weekend sports, hiking, and vacations. We do day hikes/weekend camping trips in the NY Adirondack mts regularly, will be vacationing in Hawaii, and SE Asia within 2 yrs(funding will dictate which happens 1st). We are due for a Cruise, and would like to do Europe within the next 10yrs. I want a camcorder that will be able to go from beach to tree cover to hotel lighting with a few minor adaptions, if any. I wouldn't rule out ziplining, and hang gliding, so a decent separate lens suggestion would be good. I already have a Nikon D5000 for stills. My sister-in-law is an actress too, so if she needs to record something to send out to an audition, and this purchase will cover it, we would be happy too.

I will check the Sony, the Panasonic TM900 and any other suggestions tonight when I get out of work. If there are any boutique suggestions that need to be ordered online, please let me know so I can check those out 1st, Ideally our first shoot with this new camcorder will be Sunday.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,080
136
Frankly at 5 grand I think its difficult to buy a crappy HD camera. It would be mostly deciding which specific features you need from a professional grade system.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
49,290
5,838
136
That Phantom Flex looks awesome, I should prolly get the wife a Bently 1st tho.. ;)

Needs:
We are pretty active, shots will be family, weekend sports, hiking, and vacations. We do day hikes/weekend camping trips in the NY Adirondack mts regularly, will be vacationing in Hawaii, and SE Asia within 2 yrs(funding will dictate which happens 1st). We are due for a Cruise, and would like to do Europe within the next 10yrs. I want a camcorder that will be able to go from beach to tree cover to hotel lighting with a few minor adaptions, if any. I wouldn't rule out ziplining, and hang gliding, so a decent separate lens suggestion would be good. I already have a Nikon D5000 for stills. My sister-in-law is an actress too, so if she needs to record something to send out to an audition, and this purchase will cover it, we would be happy too.

I will check the Sony, the Panasonic TM900 and any other suggestions tonight when I get out of work. If there are any boutique suggestions that need to be ordered online, please let me know so I can check those out 1st, Ideally our first shoot with this new camcorder will be Sunday.

In addition to a dedicated camcorder, you might also consider a cheap "action cam" such as a GoPro HD or a Kodak Playsport - something you can grab & go quickly with, and something that can take some pounding (drops, water, dirt, etc.). I have a Playsport and it's handy for something that's water/dust/drop-proof & does quick/easy recording. The GoPro is really nice because they offer all kinds of mounts (chest strap, helmet mount, car mount, surfboard mount, etc.) and has gorgeous auto-exposure, plus a fabulous wide-angle view:

http://gopro.com/

And of course, the big thing I tell everyone is workflow, workflow, workflow. Nail down a pipeline that works so that you're not constantly fighting your system to do editing, and figure out what kind of videos you want to output so that you're not just storing endless hours of footage that no one will ever watch. No one wants to watch a 2-hour soccer video of kid's games, but everyone likes 5-minute clips with a fun soundtrack and whatnot. You sound like you already have a pretty good head start on the pipeline issue with all of your hardware!
 
Last edited:

brotj7

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
206
0
71
Holy smokes, that Go Pro video is sick... $300 is dirt cheap for that. Definately getting one for our next ski trip(not that we're any good). I was in high school when the Zoo York skating videos first started coming out, man that blew our minds...

For the workflow, I do prefer PC but could build a hackintosh for a MAC based video development system if need be, either way it gives me a reason to upgrade to a socket 2011 with a copious amount of ram in the fall. Waiting for encoding wouldn't bother me as long as I can output to a tv directly from the camera via HDMI, and when I do encode, it's something I can just set a script up to do. I'm thinking: copy the raw to a HD, set a few parameters/filters, encode...encode some more, come back the next day after work to set up the next one. If we're talking a week to encode a few hrs of recording, like game rendering requires, that's probably too much for my skill level.


For features, I like the idea of dual card writing, and good low light recording. Some of the reviews I found on the cannon say it is no good in low light. The random videos I have found have been OK, but not outstanding...
 

brotj7

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
206
0
71
Any opinions between a Sony HVR-V1U and the Canon XF100?

The XF100 does MPEG-2 with 3x 1/3" CMOS sensors, can go down to 4.5lux in auto mode, and has a 10x optical zoom.

The HVR-V1U does HDV with 3x 1/4" CMOS sensors, can go down to 4lux and has a 20x optical zoom. This one is ~$500 more.

Both do 4:2:2 color.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
49,290
5,838
136
Holy smokes, that Go Pro video is sick... $300 is dirt cheap for that. Definately getting one for our next ski trip(not that we're any good). I was in high school when the Zoo York skating videos first started coming out, man that blew our minds...

For the workflow, I do prefer PC but could build a hackintosh for a MAC based video development system if need be, either way it gives me a reason to upgrade to a socket 2011 with a copious amount of ram in the fall. Waiting for encoding wouldn't bother me as long as I can output to a tv directly from the camera via HDMI, and when I do encode, it's something I can just set a script up to do. I'm thinking: copy the raw to a HD, set a few parameters/filters, encode...encode some more, come back the next day after work to set up the next one. If we're talking a week to encode a few hrs of recording, like game rendering requires, that's probably too much for my skill level.


For features, I like the idea of dual card writing, and good low light recording. Some of the reviews I found on the cannon say it is no good in low light. The random videos I have found have been OK, but not outstanding...

VoltaicHD is my favorite conversion tool (for PC & Mac) - $40 & does batch conversions while you sleep!

http://www.shedworx.com/voltaichd

Whichever platform you choose, I'd vote to select one and stick with one - nail down the workflow so that you're not constantly fighting it. That's one of the biggest pains of video, but if you have a working pipeline, you're all set for post!
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
49,290
5,838
136

brotj7

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
206
0
71
Sweet, thanks for setting up the comparison for me, I really appreciate it. That yellow hugh on the Sony image is exactly what I'm trying to get rid of, although I would imagine that image was taken in complete dark, not just a dimly lit house/forest.

I spent most of my free time last night checking out the Panasonic TM900, and the rest of their line. It does look like that Canon will be the one at $3500, and there is one in stock downstate, so I might end up with that one if they can get me a package deal.

What editing package do you recommend to use with the Canon and MPEG-2. I can just play the MPEG-2 directly with Windows media player right? What is the best format(least loss) I can get if I make bluray discs for the family?
 

brotj7

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
206
0
71
Kaido - First I just wanted to say thank you for all of your help.

So with that said, I just reread the last few pages of your guide and a few other google searches, and noticed that almost all posts deal with MPEG-4 AVCHD. Thus far, I have been under the assumption that it was primarily for internet quality video, and MPEG-2 is for good color/high bitrate. But a few posts have been listing MPEG-4 AVCHD as a being able to do exactly the same quality as MPEG-2, and even higher quality due to better compression at the same bitrate. I had been planning on getting 2x32GB CF cards at 90mb/s for the Canon to take care of any recording bandwidth issues, but now I find myself questioning decision the Cannon which uses MPEG-2 at all. Is it just plain knowledge that MPEG-2 can already do this, and MPEG-4 is just getting there or should I be looking at the MPEG-4AVCHD native recorders in my pricerange instead? If I can shoot 1600p masters with MPEG-4 AVCHD that would be sweet!!!

Also with workflow in mind, around pages 9-10 in the guide there are multiple mentions of being able to directly edit a AVCHD shoot, but no mention of MPEG-2.

Thanks,
Robb
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
49,290
5,838
136
It's kind of a toss-up and somewhat depends on what you plan on doing with it and what the final delivery format will be. Also, things are in a bit of a state of transition right now. dSLR's came out with video recording functionality only recently and can give you a Hollywood cinema look without too much effort, so do you really need a larger, more expensive camera to get the type of footage that you want? (the TM900 having 1080/60p & a wide-angle lens as an improvement on small cameras, for example). Then again, you can use an iPhone to shoot a nice-looking movie now - for example:

http://vimeo.com/12819723

Here's one shot on a $699 Canon T2i:

http://vimeo.com/10314280

There are some advantages and disadvantages to the larger cams as well. More controls, but also more visibility - you can sneak the smaller cams like the TM900 into a lot more places because it looks like a tourist camera:

http://content.reviewed.com/products/10516/specs/5225/Panasonic_HDC-TM900_Handling1.jpg

vs.

http://images.camcorderinfo.com/ima...00/PhotoGallery/16-JVC_GY-HM100_Handling4.jpg

My best advice is to download some raw samples from the cameras you're looking at (reviews sites & manufacturer sites usually have some, or you can ask on camcorder forums) and play with it in a video editor to see how it looks to you. Ultimately your eye is what matters, so find something you enjoy working with because you'll use it more! :)