100,000 dead? Or 8000 dead?

Sep 12, 2004
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http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/

The authors of a peer-reviewed study, conducted by a survey team from Johns Hopkins University, claim that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war. Yet a close look at the actual study, published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet, reveals that this number is so loose as to be meaningless.

The report's authors derive this figure by estimating how many Iraqis died in a 14-month period before the U.S. invasion, conducting surveys on how many died in a similar period after the invasion began (more on those surveys later), and subtracting the difference. That difference?the number of "extra" deaths in the post-invasion period?signifies the war's toll. That number is 98,000. But read the passage that cites the calculation more fully:

We estimate there were 98,000 extra deaths (95% CI 8000-194 000) during the post-war period.

Readers who are accustomed to perusing statistical documents know what the set of numbers in the parentheses means. For the other 99.9 percent of you, I'll spell it out in plain English?which, disturbingly, the study never does. It means that the authors are 95 percent confident that the war-caused deaths totaled some number between 8,000 and 194,000. (The number cited in plain language?98,000?is roughly at the halfway point in this absurdly vast range.)

This isn't an estimate. It's a dart board.

war stories Military analysis.


100,000 Dead?or 8,000
How many Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war?
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Friday, Oct. 29, 2004, at 3:49 PM PT


The authors of a peer-reviewed study, conducted by a survey team from Johns Hopkins University, claim that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war. Yet a close look at the actual study, published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet, reveals that this number is so loose as to be meaningless.

The report's authors derive this figure by estimating how many Iraqis died in a 14-month period before the U.S. invasion, conducting surveys on how many died in a similar period after the invasion began (more on those surveys later), and subtracting the difference. That difference?the number of "extra" deaths in the post-invasion period?signifies the war's toll. That number is 98,000. But read the passage that cites the calculation more fully:

We estimate there were 98,000 extra deaths (95% CI 8000-194 000) during the post-war period.

Readers who are accustomed to perusing statistical documents know what the set of numbers in the parentheses means. For the other 99.9 percent of you, I'll spell it out in plain English?which, disturbingly, the study never does. It means that the authors are 95 percent confident that the war-caused deaths totaled some number between 8,000 and 194,000. (The number cited in plain language?98,000?is roughly at the halfway point in this absurdly vast range.)

This isn't an estimate. It's a dart board.

Imagine reading a poll reporting that George W. Bush will win somewhere between 4 percent and 96 percent of the votes in this Tuesday's election. You would say that this is a useless poll and that something must have gone terribly wrong with the sampling. The same is true of the Lancet article: It's a useless study; something went terribly wrong with the sampling.

The problem is, ultimately, not with the scholars who conducted the study; they did the best they could under the circumstances. The problem is the circumstances. It's hard to conduct reliable, random surveys?and to extrapolate meaningful data from the results of those surveys?in the chaotic, restrictive environment of war.

However, these scholars are responsible for the hype surrounding the study. Gilbert Burnham, one of the co-authors, told the International Herald Tribune (for a story reprinted in today's New York Times), "We're quite sure that the estimate of 100,000 is a conservative estimate." Yet the text of the study reveals this is simply untrue. Burnham should have said, "We're not quite sure what our estimate means. Assuming our model is accurate, the actual death toll might be 100,000, or it might be somewhere between 92,000 lower and 94,000 higher than that number."

Not a meaty headline, but truer to the findings of his own study.

Here's how the Johns Hopkins team?which, for the record, was led by Dr. Les Roberts of the university's Bloomberg School of Public Health?went about its work. They randomly selected 33 neighborhoods across Iraq?equal-sized population "clusters"?and, this past September, set out to interview 30 households in each. They asked how many people in each household died, of what causes, during the 14 months before the U.S. invasion?and how many died, of what, in the 17 months since the war began. They then took the results of their random sample and extrapolated them to the entire country, assuming that their 33 clusters were perfectly representative of all Iraq.

This is a time-honored technique for many epidemiological studies, but those conducting them have to take great care that the way they select the neighborhoods is truly random (which, as most poll-watchers of any sort know, is difficult under the easiest of circumstances). There's a further complication when studying the results of war, especially a war fought mainly by precision bombs dropped from the air: The damage is not randomly distributed; it's very heavily concentrated in a few areas.

The Johns Hopkins team had to confront this problem. One of the 33 clusters they selected happened to be in Fallujah, one of the most heavily bombed and shelled cities in all Iraq. Was it legitimate to extrapolate from a sample that included such an extreme case? More awkward yet, it turned out, two-thirds of all the violent deaths that the team recorded took place in the Fallujah cluster. They settled the dilemma by issuing two sets of figures?one with Fallujah, the other without. The estimate of 98,000 deaths is the extrapolation from the set that does not include Fallujah. What's the extrapolation for the set that does include Fallujah? They don't exactly say. Fallujah was nearly unique; it's impossible to figure out how to extrapolate from it. A question does arise, though: Is this difficulty a result of some peculiarity about the fighting in Fallujah? Or is it a result of some peculiarity in the survey's methodology?

There were other problems. The survey team simply could not visit some of the randomly chosen clusters; the roads were blocked off, in some cases by coalition checkpoints. So the team picked other, more accessible areas that had received similar amounts of damage. But it's unclear how they made this calculation. In any case, the detour destroyed the survey's randomness; the results are inherently tainted. In other cases, the team didn't find enough people in a cluster to interview, so they expanded the survey to an adjoining cluster. Again, at that point, the survey was no longer random, and so the results are suspect.

Beth Osborne Daponte, senior research scholar at Yale University's Institution for Social and Policy Studies, put the point diplomatically after reading the Lancet article this morning and discussing it with me in a phone conversation: "It attests to the difficulty of doing this sort of survey work during a war. ? No one can come up with any credible estimates yet, at least not through the sorts of methods used here."

The study, though, does have a fundamental flaw that has nothing to do with the limits imposed by wartime?and this flaw suggests that, within the study's wide range of possible casualty estimates, the real number tends more toward the lower end of the scale. In order to gauge the risk of death brought on by the war, the researchers first had to measure the risk of death in Iraq before the war. Based on their survey of how many people in the sampled households died before the war, they calculated that the mortality rate in prewar Iraq was 5 deaths per 1,000 people per year. The mortality rate after the war started?not including Fallujah?was 7.9 deaths per 1,000 people per year. In short, the risk of death in Iraq since the war is 58 percent higher (7.9 divided by 5 = 1.58) than it was before the war.

But there are two problems with this calculation. First, Daponte (who has studied Iraqi population figures for many years) questions the finding that prewar mortality was 5 deaths per 1,000. According to quite comprehensive data collected by the United Nations, Iraq's mortality rate from 1980-85 was 8.1 per 1,000. From 1985-90, the years leading up to the 1991 Gulf War, the rate declined to 6.8 per 1,000. After '91, the numbers are murkier, but clearly they went up. Whatever they were in 2002, they were almost certainly higher than 5 per 1,000. In other words, the wartime mortality rate?if it is 7.9 per 1,000?probably does not exceed the peacetime rate by as much as the Johns Hopkins team assumes.

The second problem with the calculation goes back to the problem cited at the top of this article?the margin of error. Here is the relevant passage from the study: "The risk of death is 1.5-fold (1.1 ? 2.3) higher after the invasion." Those mysterious numbers in the parentheses mean the authors are 95 percent confident that the risk of death now is between 1.1 and 2.3 times higher than it was before the invasion?in other words, as little as 10 percent higher or as much as 130 percent higher. Again, the math is too vague to be useful.

There is one group out there counting civilian casualties in a way that's tangible, specific, and very useful?a team of mainly British researchers, led by Hamit Dardagan and John Sloboda, called Iraq Body Count. They have kept a running total of civilian deaths, derived entirely from press reports. Their count is triple fact-checked; their database is itemized and fastidiously sourced; and they take great pains to separate civilian from combatant casualties (for instance, last Tuesday, the group released a report estimating that, of the 800 Iraqis killed in last April's siege of Fallujah, 572 to 616 of them were civilians, at least 308 of them women and children).

The IBC estimates that between 14,181 and 16,312 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war?about half of them since the battlefield phase of the war ended last May. The group also notes that these figures are probably on the low side, since some deaths must have taken place outside the media's purview.

So, let's call it 15,000 or?allowing for deaths that the press didn't report?20,000 or 25,000, maybe 30,000 Iraqi civilians killed in a pre-emptive war waged (according to the latest rationale) on their behalf. That's a number more solidly rooted in reality than the Hopkins figure?and, given that fact, no less shocking. [/quote]
Already the left is using the 100,000 death figure as an accurate one and regurgitating it as fact. It's happened here in this forum already.

I agree with Kaplan. This is little more than a dartboard figure.
 

Tylanner

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2004
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Eye doctor to a liberal: Your foresight is severely myopic but, oddly enough, your hindsight is 20/20.

Testify!
 

tallest1

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2001
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I don't know where the 100,000 number came from but speaking as a liberal, that sounds like one hell of an exaggeration. (If I were to guess I number, I'd say something around 15k or so)
 

alchemize

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Mar 24, 2000
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I've seen this being posted around as gospel lately, unsuprisingly. Some concerns I haven't seen brought up just yet...

1) The pollers were Iraqi's. What leads us to believe they were even slightly independent?
2) What leads anyone to believe the people they were polling weren't lying? They certainly would be motivated to, given sentiment against the US
3) I thought iraq was practically in civil war. Yet only these guys couldn't go to fallujah - but were able to go everywhere else? Which is it? Anarchy or not?
4) their statistical methods are questionable at best by using "pre/post war" death rates to make an estimate is silly.
5) The timing was fascinating :D
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: Tylanner
Eye doctor to a liberal: Your foresight is severely myopic but, oddly enough, your hindsight is 20/20.

Testify!

Curiously, TLC claims to be a liberal. What a country!
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: Tylanner
Eye doctor to a liberal: Your foresight is severely myopic but, oddly enough, your hindsight is 20/20.

Testify!

Curiously, TLC claims to be a liberal. What a country!
Don. Would you care to point out where my beliefs, other than my hawkish view of Iraq, are not liberal (or libertarian)?

Thanks. I'll be waiting.

 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
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Is ONE not too many to you people? Wow, only 8,000 people dead. That's like wiping my g/f's entire town off the map. I admit if I had to choose, I'd choose 8000 over 100,000. But come on! You believe in war so much, why aren't you the first in line?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: judasmachine
Is ONE not too many to you people? Wow, only 8,000 people dead. That's like wiping my g/f's entire town off the map. I admit if I had to choose, I'd choose 8000 over 100,000. But come on! You believe in war so much, why aren't you the first in line?
If you disagree with war so much, why aren't you over there as a human shield?

And no, I don't disagree that human lives lost in war are a horrible thing.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Don. Would you care to point out where my beliefs, other than my hawkish view of Iraq, are not liberal (or libertarian)?

Thanks. I'll be waiting.

I don't know about, nor can I be bothered to map out, the gestalt of your worldview. In my observation, however, at least 80% of your posts are nasty partisan snipes directed at liberals and their stupidity and short-sightedness.

Irving Kristol and the initial neoconservatives came from the Democratic party, but the philosophy they created (and that you seem to share) is more akin to raw imperialism than traditional Republicanism. Whatever else you can call it, however, it sure as hell isn't liberal. Neither are you.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Don. Would you care to point out where my beliefs, other than my hawkish view of Iraq, are not liberal (or libertarian)?

Thanks. I'll be waiting.

I don't know about, nor can I be bothered to map out, the gestalt of your worldview. In my observation, however, at least 80% of your posts are nasty partisan snipes directed at liberals and their stupidity and short-sightedness.

Irving Kristol and the initial neoconservatives came from the Democratic party, but the philosophy they created (and that you seem to share) is more akin to raw imperialism than traditional Republicanism. Whatever else you can call it, however, it sure as hell isn't liberal. Neither are you.
You can't define why I'm not a liberal but you know one when you see it?

Hmm. Now why does that have a certain similitude to something I've heard before? ;)
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

You can't define why I'm not a liberal but you know one when you see it?

Hmm. Now why does that have a certain similitude to somthing I've heard before? ;)

I think I defined it just fine, and if you honestly think your posts here reflect a liberal's perspective, you're living in a fantasy world. Your sig speaks louder than the rest of your rhetoric put together. A startling percentage of your posts involve a Kinko's in Abilene, and an even higher percentage seem to reflect a penchant for neoconservativism.

I honestly don't care what your views are, and I have a healthy respect for a number of bright, thoughtful conservatives on this board. It just seems to me you're a nasty, belittling nihilist, a quality I never admire in anyone, regardless of which side of the aisle they sit on.

 
May 10, 2001
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Is ONE not too many to you people?
Not when, if you look at the number of people sadam has killed in the past even 200k is less than the number sadam would have killled, if you acept that war civilian casualties where a one-time cost, over a 10 year period.

You believe in war so much, why aren't you the first in line?
everyone has there own part to contribute to society, if it came down to protecting the country or going to work I'm sure most of us would choose to protect our country. But as it is there are many who add more to society in there capacity as doctors or engineers than they would as solderers.


no offence intended, but it seems you've not given honest consideration to both sides of this issue, but rather have been taken up by catch-phrases that break-down under thoughtful analysis.

simply:

There are two sides to the war issue, and reasonable people can come down on either one, but you've not presented the arguments of a reasonable person.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

You can't define why I'm not a liberal but you know one when you see it?

Hmm. Now why does that have a certain similitude to somthing I've heard before? ;)

I think I defined it just fine, and if you honestly think your posts here reflect a liberal's perspective, you're living in a fantasy world. Your sig speaks louder than the rest of your rhetoric put together. A startling percentage of your posts involve a Kinko's in Abilene, and an even higher percentage seem to reflect a penchant for neoconservativism.

I honestly don't care what your views are, and I have a healthy respect for a number of bright, thoughtful conservatives on this board. It just seems to me you're a nasty, belittling nihilist, a quality I never admire in anyone, regardless of which side of the aisle they sit on.
Believe what you want about me. My own personal views are liberal and I've outlined them previously in here as to why I am a liberal. Your weak jabs and attempts at maligning me don't change that fact and personal bias on your part seems to be on display as well.

Your problem, and other liberals in here I'm sure, is that I'm perceived as a traitor to the cause. I can't possibly be a liberal because I don't fall in with the usual liberal rabble and their hyperbolic and rhetorical stances. The reason I don't is because such stances sicken me. Liberals used to search for some semblence of the truth. Now we have liberals slanting and disinforming, making speculative and generalized distortions that disregard the real truth either partially or wholesale. They don't want to know the truth so long as it aligns with their emotional knee-in-the-chin thinking.

I refuse to be that liberal. I'll look for the real truth regardless of party affiliation and I'll be more than happy to debunk anyone, regardless of their partisan ethos, when I feel it necessary. I feel it's necssary to debunk my own primarily, because one could hope a liberal would actually listen to another liberal. Apparently that is not so though. People like you only want the Bush-bashing morons to make comments and if anyone bashes them they are "nihilists" or some other silly and speculative label, quickly applied like some temporary tatoo. Liberals are great label makers. :roll:

Continue on down your path of self-righteousness regardless of the cost to truth and remain oblivious though. Others in here can decide for themselves who is really living a fantasy and who is not.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
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Originally posted by: tallest1
I don't know where the 100,000 number came from but speaking as a liberal, that sounds like one hell of an exaggeration. (If I were to guess I number, I'd say something around 15k or so)

An exaggeration? You mean like the Dub never saying he did not know or care where Osama was? Do not be misled. 100,000 is an educated guess. It is 1000 times more solid than anything offered by Bush apologists. All they have is wishful thinking.


-------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): lies, damn lies, and Repuglican talking points
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
My own personal views are liberal and I've outlined them previously in here as to why I am a liberal.

How do you define a liberal? Where have you explained WHY you are a liberal?

Believe what you want about me.
I will. I believe you are a formerly banned troll that came up with a great troll idea, pretend to be part of your adversary. Now we need someone to claim to be a conservative yet be consistently in favor of every liberal POV.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
My own personal views are liberal and I've outlined them previously in here as to why I am a liberal.

How do you define a liberal? Where have you explained WHY you are a liberal?
A liberal is defined by their personal political beliefs. My own personal beliefs define me as a liberal.

I have explained my beliefs on more than one occasion in P&N. If you missed it that's not my problem. iirc, one reply that outlined those beliefs was directly, specifically, and explicitly in a response to you so you either ignored it or never read it in the first place. If you don't know what they are by now I'd suggest:

http://forums.anandtech.com/search.aspx

Believe what you want about me.
I will. I believe you are a formerly banned troll that came up with a great troll idea, pretend to be part of your adversary. Now we need someone to claim to be a conservative yet be consistently in favor of every liberal POV.
[/quote]
I'm really getting tired of this kind of crap, which is so typical of you. I will send your claim to a mod and have them run a check, if possible, on my previous incarnations at ATP&N just to shut you the fvck up with your blatantly incorrect assertion. If I get a reply I'll be more than happy to post the results because I already know what such a check would find, which is nothing. Then, once that information is provided, I will expect a full, contrite, and unconditional apology from you because I know for a fact that prior to my TLC incarnation I never even clicked into P&N even once to lurk.

Are you game to issue such an apology Mr. Faulty Accusation? If so, I'll be happy to move forward on this and make you look like a complete fool. I'll be looking forward to your answer.

There is no evidence that he is a returned former member or a banned troll!
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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So clearly the author of the critical article intended to title it '194 000 dead, or 8000' since he's a paragon of statistical reasoning. I.E. he fails to point out that it is equally likely that more than 100 000 people have been killed then that less than 100 000 have been killed.

It sounds like a sketchy method of counting bodies to me, but the statistical information supports the claim of 100 000 with the caveat that the standard deviation of dying in Iraq is apparently quite high.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Infohawk
I will. I believe you are a formerly banned troll that came up with a great troll idea, pretend to be part of your adversary. Now we need someone to claim to be a conservative yet be consistently in favor of every liberal POV.
I'm really getting tired of this kind of crap, which is so typical of you. I will send your claim to a mod and have them run a check, if possible, on my previous incarnations at ATP&N just to shut you the fvck up with your blatantly incorrect assertion. If I get a reply I'll be more than happy to post the results because I already know what such a check would find, which is nothing. Then, once that information is provided, I will expect a full, contrite, and unconditional apology from you because I know for a fact that prior to my TLC incarnation I never even clicked into P&N even once to lurk.

Are you game to issue such an apology Mr. Faulty Accusation? If so, I'll be happy to move forward on this and make you look like a complete fool. I'll be looking forward to your answer.
Ahem, Infohawk:
There is no evidence that he is a returned former member or a banned troll!

Edited: 10/30/2004 at 06:00 PM by AnandTech Moderator
I'll be waiting with unrestrained glee for your apology.

btw, much thanks to the mods for the quick response.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Infohawk
I will. I believe you are a formerly banned troll that came up with a great troll idea, pretend to be part of your adversary. Now we need someone to claim to be a conservative yet be consistently in favor of every liberal POV.
I'm really getting tired of this kind of crap, which is so typical of you. I will send your claim to a mod and have them run a check, if possible, on my previous incarnations at ATP&N just to shut you the fvck up with your blatantly incorrect assertion. If I get a reply I'll be more than happy to post the results because I already know what such a check would find, which is nothing. Then, once that information is provided, I will expect a full, contrite, and unconditional apology from you because I know for a fact that prior to my TLC incarnation I never even clicked into P&N even once to lurk.

Are you game to issue such an apology Mr. Faulty Accusation? If so, I'll be happy to move forward on this and make you look like a complete fool. I'll be looking forward to your answer.
Ahem, Infohawk:
There is no evidence that he is a returned former member or a banned troll!

Edited: 10/30/2004 at 06:00 PM by AnandTech Moderator
I'll be waiting with unrestrained glee for your apology.

btw, much thanks to the mods for the quick response.

Don't hold your breath. This is the reigning king of trolls we are talking about here.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Don't hold your breath. This is the reigning king of trolls we are talking about here.
That's OK. Like a Polaroid photograph, the longer this develops the more the picture of Infohawk's true colors will come into focus.