‘He’s Destroyed Conservatism’: The Republican Case Against Trump’s GOP

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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
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I thought this was a very good piece. I think the founders never imagined a man like Trump or today's GOP. It's refreshing to hear a GOP operative basically say that GOP politicians are generally phony.

STEVENS: Look, in July, Trump was already talking about suspending the elections. What do you think he’s going to do in October? Tell me what’s wrong with this scenario: It’s November 1, he’s losing, there are reports of voter irregularities in Florida, like there always are, and he sends those guys in camouflage into Miami-Dade County to seize the ballot boxes. Who’s going to stop him? The county security guards? They’re not going to phone ahead. What are the courts going to do? Order another election? Throw out Dade County? I don’t know. Who would object? [Attorney General William] Barr would go right along with it. The inability to imagine Trump has always been his greatest advantage. Normal people expect people who are acting abnormally to revert to normality. Trump understands that and he’s not a normal person. With the United States government, you’ve given Tony Soprano the paving contract and you’re acting shocked that he doesn’t seem interested in getting the road paved.

Stuart Stevens helped build the monster, but he has at least straight up admitted that he did it for money and is ashamed of himself.

Most of the Never Trumper/Lincoln Project/Independents™ still try to act surprised when they find out that the Republican Party has been full of Republicans the entire time.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
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As usual The Onion was remarkably prescient.


I think the main problem with your theory is that the media reacts because people react. Most of the various Trump outrage headlines don’t depend on democratic officials reacting.

OMG that video is hilarious. From 2012, predicting the 2016 GOP candidate will be a "shrieking. white hot sphere of rage."
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Stuart Stevens helped build the monster, but he has at least straight up admitted that he did it for money and is ashamed of himself.

Most of the Never Trumper/Lincoln Project/Independents™ still try to act surprised when they find out that the Republican Party has been full of Republicans the entire time.

I think what happened is that racism in his party kind of crept up on him too slowly for him to realize until it was too late. And indeed, it has crept up.


What is interesting about that study is that "racial resentment" (a scientist's way of saying "racism") has not increased overall since the 1980's. It actually waned slightly during Obama's second term. But what has changed is this: the correlation between racism and party identification. Back in the 80's, evidently there were plenty of racist dems and non-racist repubs. It seems that all the racist dems are now either dead or became repubs, while all the non-racist repubs are dead or are now dems.

I think Stuart was one of those non-racist repubs who didn't get the memo until recently. He knew it existed in the party but probably convinced himself it was a fringe. And now he's found out otherwise.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
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I would add to my comment above regarding the study, that the racists being concentrated into one of the two parties is a much worse scenario than having the racists split between the two. Before, they were a minority of both parties small enough to not be a driving force in either party's politics. Now they are a major driving force of one of our two political parties. That is not a good thing.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
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Conservatives policy has since Reagan been about selling long term prosperity for short term gain. It is the payday loan theory of economics. It is the ultimate short sighted economic policy. They have been buying votes by handing voters short term benefits at the cost of long term stability.
Pay day loans look like a good idea if you think you can get someone else to pay them back, and that is what the GOP has been doing. Take the loan, and then tell Democrats they have to pay it back.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,008
8,041
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Libertarianism is for those who can’t come to grips with the failed policies of conservatism. It’s another ideology that sounds good on paper but that doesn’t work in reality.

From experience, it is for those who realize something is wrong and are left bereft, teetering in the wind. At that point one is standing between two paths, Madness or Education. From learning at least a few basic concepts behind the economy and doing the math myself, I rejected Libertarianism / Conservatism. Others are not so fortunate.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
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Libertarianism is an excellent economic system for any economy that includes 2 or fewer actors. Once you get above that magical number it becomes indistinguishable from feudalism.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
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In this guy's defense he at least appears to be genuinely ashamed of what he enabled, so I'll give him that. I do think that the results of conditioning your voters to accept wild, baldfaced lies and to undermine trust in institutions and nonpartisan news organizations were foreseeable though.

So kudos to him for finally seeing the light but man, the light has been shining for a loooooong time.
I agree, but I also keep in mind that Conservatives have a wider range of moral concerns than Liberals do, all of which, given the right circumstances, are of human survival value. The problem is not the value of those moral concerns which make Conservatives potentially morally more sophisticated than Liberals, but that where morality goes wrong, a process of bigoted conditioning rather than values that anybody with real self respect would see value in, those perversions of morality become far more dangerous.

Loyalty to group is a good thing when the group exists for the benefit of all. Loyalty to group is a disease when the motive of the group is evil.

Respect for authority is proper for authority that deserves respect but evil where that respect is not deserved, where authority works to benefit itself.

Purity of body is good, but stupid when misconstrued. We don't, for example, have to worry to much these days about eating pork but we sure as hell once did.

Traditions are full of practical wisdom but subject to change as conditions and scientific understanding advance.

Truth is always a third way, the resolution of opposites at a higher level of understanding.

Good and evil are real when their is a belief they are real. The fact is that good and evil do not exist. Another fact is that we believe we know one from the other. Truth is lots of fun but only if your sacred cows have been abandoned. The terror is that our fear we are evil enters conscious awareness. We project to deflect.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
As usual The Onion was remarkably prescient.


I think the main problem with your theory is that the media reacts because people react. Most of the various Trump outrage headlines don’t depend on democratic officials reacting.

Oh you are right. It certainly would take a sufficient collective approach to succeed. And I'm not sure what would constitute sufficient.

I wasn't addressing anyone in specific, but it's my recommendation for anyone who does not support Trump, including the sycophants in Washington who are trying to ride his coattails but would rather literally any other Republican be in the White House (and I think that's all but a small few of 'em). The media as a whole would be the most useful lot. And actually that includes Fox who often functions as a Trump apologist to keep the conservative distortions cohesive enough to get past the latest bonehead statement or act of treason. If they just shut up about it, they'd probably get what they want.

Although I say the collective approach is necessary to have success, I firmly believe that individually my suggestion is the most prudent. Dad successfully ignoring the tantrum isn't going to help the child give up the power struggles if Mom consistently gives in. But since you're bound to get shit on you no matter what, at least Dad gets to watch a little bit of the baseball game instead of frustrate himself with his lack of authority.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I agree, but I also keep in mind that Conservatives have a wider range of moral concerns than Liberals do, all of which, given the right circumstances, are of human survival value. The problem is not the value of those moral concerns which make Conservatives potentially morally more sophisticated than Liberals, but that where morality goes wrong, a process of bigoted conditioning rather than values that anybody with real self respect would see value in, those perversions of morality become far more dangerous.

Loyalty to group is a good thing when the group exists for the benefit of all. Loyalty to group is a disease when the motive of the group is evil.

Respect for authority is proper for authority that deserves respect but evil where that respect is not deserved, where authority works to benefit itself.

Purity of body is good, but stupid when misconstrued. We don't, for example, have to worry to much these days about eating pork but we sure as hell once did.

Traditions are full of practical wisdom but subject to change as conditions and scientific understanding advance.

Truth is always a third way, the resolution of opposites at a higher level of understanding.

Good and evil are real when their is a belief they are real. The fact is that good and evil do not exist. Another fact is that we believe we know one from the other. Truth is lots of fun but only if your sacred cows have been abandoned. The terror is that our fear we are evil enters conscious awareness. We project to deflect.

It does not matter how strong your morality is if you cannot tolerate an accurate perception of reality from which to apply those morals. It is in that scenario where morality can become a tool for abuse of those you cast as amoral to ward off seeing your own failings.

But you are right that where people go wrong is that they assume such hypocritical act necessarily means the morals themselves are disingenuous. That is far from the case most of the time.

But not Trump. Trump is not a hypocritical conservative. As the article states, his actual behavior is fundamentally opposed to everything a conservative purports to believe in. Do not confuse the ordinary failures of their other politicians to honor the conservative ideal as evidence they are the same as Trump. Those people go through mental gynmastics to convince themselves that they represent their values earnestly. Trump has no value whatsoever in any moral version of the world which works through mutual interests, conservative or otherwise. He merely preys on other's attachments to those values and proclaims he is the purest representation of them despite an objective look demonstrating him to be the purest bastardization of them. He depends on others to do the mental gymnastics for him, and as such has no moral quandary with changing the rules altogether whenever it suits him.

All of Trump's power comes from the weakness of others. He is allowed to abusively represent moral values other people genuinely hold because they don't subconsciously feel strong enough to represent those values themselves. And they are so terrified to admit this fact to themselves that they would rather fuck the world over to soothe their own psyche by enjoining the delusion that their moral ideal not only exists but wins.

Don't get me started on liberals.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
And actually that includes Fox who often functions as a Trump apologist to keep the conservative distortions cohesive enough to get past the latest bonehead statement or act of treason. If they just shut up about it, they'd probably get what they want.

Eh, I think FOX news is about the money. They Murdock found a demographic that wasn't really being served well by other news outlets. Now they own that demographic. Freaking Hannity make $40M a year! Imagine how happy he is to support idiotic conspiracy theories since it nets him $40M a year.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
126
Eh, I think FOX news is about the money. They Murdock found a demographic that wasn't really being served well by other news outlets. Now they own that demographic. Freaking Hannity make $40M a year! Imagine how happy he is to support idiotic conspiracy theories since it nets him $40M a year.
It does not matter how strong your morality is if you cannot tolerate an accurate perception of reality from which to apply those morals. It is in that scenario where morality can become a tool for abuse of those you cast as amoral to ward off seeing your own failings.

But you are right that where people go wrong is that they assume such hypocritical act necessarily means the morals themselves are disingenuous. That is far from the case most of the time.

But not Trump. Trump is not a hypocritical conservative. As the article states, his actual behavior is fundamentally opposed to everything a conservative purports to believe in. Do not confuse the ordinary failures of their other politicians to honor the conservative ideal as evidence they are the same as Trump. Those people go through mental gynmastics to convince themselves that they represent their values earnestly. Trump has no value whatsoever in any moral version of the world which works through mutual interests, conservative or otherwise. He merely preys on other's attachments to those values and proclaims he is the purest representation of them despite an objective look demonstrating him to be the purest bastardization of them. He depends on others to do the mental gymnastics for him, and as such has no moral quandary with changing the rules altogether whenever it suits him.

All of Trump's power comes from the weakness of others. He is allowed to abusively represent moral values other people genuinely hold because they don't subconsciously feel strong enough to represent those values themselves. And they are so terrified to admit this fact to themselves that they would rather fuck the world over to soothe their own psyche by enjoining the delusion that their moral ideal not only exists but wins.

Don't get me started on liberals.
Sounds right to me. My comment on Conservatives was addressed to fiskimo regarding his lament it took so long for this guy to see. I was trying to suggest there are properties of the conservative mind set that make that realization especially difficult. I tend to see people who refuse to see their own evil as worthless scum, a trait I don't really like about myself. So maybe what I wrote was more to calm my own need to point fingers by appealing to what I think is really the case, that something good lies at the root of conservative evil and we shouldn't throw out the moral concerns of conservatives because they are open to corruption in ways liberal's cant be similarly affected, which itself makes liberals bling to why conservative moral messaging is something they lose elections over because they can't see what it is that hits them, that conservative moral concerns are instinctive and have root appeal for that reason, corrupt or not.

Trump is not a conservative, I know. He is, in my opinion, a criminal psychopath and highly skilled con man. Trump has one guiding star, again, in my opinion, and that is what is good for him minute by minute is his truth, a delusional reality he fully animates in word and action.

Republicans who support Trump are supporting a Mafia like psychopath and, in my view should be brought to justice for treason. The damage these moral slime have done to the country is epic.

I have mentioned, have I not, the dangers of self hate and how it's denial amounts to self destruction. I suggest the the greater the evil the greater the repression applied in denial.

Just as an aside, did you ever see the film Forbidden Planet? It's an unconscious revelation or perhaps not so unconscious, of self destruction under the rubric, Monster of the Id. Another of those 'holy shit' movies I saw as a kid.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
126
Eh, I think FOX news is about the money. They Murdock found a demographic that wasn't really being served well by other news outlets. Now they own that demographic. Freaking Hannity make $40M a year! Imagine how happy he is to support idiotic conspiracy theories since it nets him $40M a year.
Seems to me that money and power have a connection. A Mafia organization needs power and protection from the law. The Mafia will pay to acquire public support. You go to the Don for favors in exchange for your soul. The system functions efficiently is a state of human misery. Job one, make life miserable for all but those at the top, the bleeders and feeders. There is a psychic root to the notion of vampires, no?