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Old 12-16-2013, 01:47 PM   #51
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What is this self hate you are talking about? Did someone teach you this or did you discover it on your own?
How do you feel when people complement you. Do you resist speaking highly of yourself or thinking such thoughts. Have you ever said to yourself when something bad happens "Just my luck". Do you ever cry when you win or are profoundly happy. Have you ever experienced a panic attack if you deeply relax. Ever had a bad trip on drugs, experienced irrational fears? Show me a phenomena in the human world that can't be understood as self hate.

I was taught what I had already come to suspect but had not completely integrated. I got as far as seeing that folk everywhere believed what they believe to deny pain I could no longer pretend wasn't there. I had already dies when I met somebody who showed me things worse than being dead and which to my utter astonishment I was able to confirm by feeling them.

We do not feel what we feel because we feel lies, the feeling of being the worst in the world, put there long ago as children by being put down. Know that you were born completely defenseless and any pain you were subjected to was felt at the greatest degree that a human being can feel. So while we have all been maximally traumatized it's worse for some than others. There are differences in the horror we have seen.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:54 PM   #52
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There are many conservative values that could help to heal the sick. A place to call home. A community that cares. A culture of real values like real Christians are supposed to have. Small houses around a community center with some agricultural or artistic or commercial endeavor and educational process would be a good thing, I think. We do not know that the real enemy is us and we will need to know that to survive, I think.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:59 PM   #53
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Gut feeling.

I have a theory that cramped living conditions like our modern cities drive people insane. For tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of years people roamed the wilderness looking for food.

We were never meant to be living on top of each other, or our houses touching each other.

Everyone one of use yearns for peace and quiet. To listen to the wind blow, the listen to the birds and watch the squirrels. That yearning that is never fulfilled slowing drives people in the inner city crazy.
And yet you want people to live in houses that are more cramped than any apartment I've ever seen, and you want to line these houses up in a lot with a tiny bit of grass allotted to each? Sounds like a big facade to me.

Our ancestors spent many thousands of years hunting and gathering (more of the latter than the former, really). And their ancestors spent millions of years before that as more primitive apes. Maybe we should live more like ancient apes did, I'm sure they spent an awful lot of without changing how they lived an awful lot so that's how things are meant to be, right?

With a few million people in the ancient world a hunter/gatherer lifestyle is possible. That ship has long since sailed. Putting people in little houses isn't going to change anything. Having a little fence and tiny outdoor garden isn't going to mean anything for most people outside of the superficial imagery that goes along with the so-called American dream of owning a house and land.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:00 PM   #54
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Gut feeling.

I have a theory that cramped living conditions like our modern cities drive people insane. For tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of years people roamed the wilderness looking for food.

We were never meant to be living on top of each other, or our houses touching each other.

Everyone one of use yearns for peace and quiet. To listen to the wind blow, the listen to the birds and watch the squirrels. That yearning that is never fulfilled slowing drives people in the inner city crazy.
There is so much that is beautiful about you. It blows me away that you are so bigoted about so many other things. I am sure there are many many people who feel all these things you express here and are also gay.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:00 PM   #55
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There are many conservative values that could help to heal the sick. A place to call home. A community that cares. A culture of real values like real Christians are supposed to have. Small houses around a community center with some agricultural or artistic or commercial endeavor and educational process would be a good thing, I think. We do not know that the real enemy is us and we will need to know that to survive, I think.
Probably the best post you have ever made in this forum.

I think people need three things in life:

A place to call their own.

Community with relationships, laws and set guidelines for conduct.

Ability to produce something. Whether it is holding a job, or growing a garden, all of us desire to create or do something with our time.

Without those three things we are slowly driven insane. The mentally ill and weak minded show the brunt of this social decline.


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There is so much that is beautiful about you. It blows me away that you are so bigoted about so many other things. I am sure there are many many people who feel all these things you express here and are also gay.
Thank you.


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And yet you want people to live in houses that are more cramped than any apartment I've ever seen, and you want to line these houses up in a lot with a tiny bit of grass allotted to each? Sounds like a big facade to me.
Maybe the government should be giving away 3 acres with a house, chickens and goats?

There is a lot of land in the urban sprawl that goes unused. Why not put that land to use?

Last edited by Texashiker; 12-16-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:23 PM   #56
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Gut feeling.

I have a theory that cramped living conditions like our modern cities drive people insane. For tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of years people roamed the wilderness looking for food.

We were never meant to be living on top of each other, or our houses touching each other.

Everyone one of use yearns for peace and quiet. To listen to the wind blow, the listen to the birds and watch the squirrels. That yearning that is never fulfilled slowing drives people in the inner city crazy.
I think your theory is sound honestly. There are more than a few boys ranches here in Texas that are basically built on that theory. My in-laws donate to a certain one in West Texas where young drug addicts are charged with doing farm work and taking care of animals. As part of the process these youth find a value in themselves in caring for these animals and many don't fall back into the same habits when they leave.

But we aren't really talking about small houses here, we are talking about rural spaces. I have a "small" house by American standards (but would be huge compared to your proposed houses) and I still feel like I live on top of people or very close to people. An apartment in the slum part of the city will feel just as dirty/crazy/hectic as a shoebox house in the slum part of a city. The problem is more than a level of privacy (which is all a house provides) but instead is the overall environment.

So again the issue becomes forced migration to a rural region.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:25 PM   #57
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We have homeless shelters here located in/near our small town. If I understand correctly the homeless check in some time before dinner, eat, shower etc and then it's off to bed before curfew. In the morning after coffee/breakfast off they go.

There are a few rules: No alcohol or drugs allowed and all must be quiet upon bed time.

I think this is probably the best way. They are free to move/leave. Others prepare their food and clean the rooms etc. Some of the more 'capable' get jobs cooking and cleaning for the others.

Being close to downtown and within walking distance of Lowes etc allows them to look for day labor if they so desire.

I think this is the most efficient set up and allows others to look after those who cannot look after themselves.

Edit: I've been aware of 'tiny houses' for a while. I think these are really suited to those interested in pursuing a different lifestyle.

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Old 12-16-2013, 02:35 PM   #58
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I think people need three things in life:

A place to call their own.

Community with relationships, laws and set guidelines for conduct.

Ability to produce something. Whether it is holding a job, or growing a garden, all of us desire to create or do something with our time.

Without those three things we are slowly driven insane. The mentally ill and weak minded show the brunt of this social decline.
I agree with all of this. This is why I am for things like subsidized jobs, community organizations, and co-ops.

Quote:
There is a lot of land in the urban sprawl that goes unused. Why not put that land to use?
This is what I don't understand. What do you mean by this?

In any Texas city, most of the time the city is fairly full. Sure maybe a few open lots here or there, but most of the city is developed with few completely undeveloped green spaces. Most of the places with blight and vacancies are not great areas (slums) or industrial areas that are not zoned for residential properties.

"Urban sprawl" most of the time refers to the suburbs that grow out of these cities. Sure they have green areas, but most of those are things like green belts and golf courses. Those people live in those suburbs to avoid the slums of the city, so any attempt to force the homeless among them would be shot down politically as an affront to property values. Heck the city of Arlington doesn't have full public transportation to basically keep the poor people out.

So pretty please explain where these people should live if you don't mind.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:41 PM   #59
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Meh, who's to say the homeless aren't happy just the way they are? There is a bit of freedom in it if you think about it. No bills, no taxes, no job, no boss, no more tedious years on the treadmill of material acquisition.
There are many who are not actually homeless, but are professional beggars. No doubt they are happy. There are others who are happy being homeless, but I'd guess they are the minority amongst the mentally ill and those for whom poor planning or just bad luck landed them on the street. It's worth pointing out though that in the past whenever we've tried to impose a more regimented life on the homeless, a significant number always opt out, forgoing even modest comfort to maintain freedom.

It's all about the individual. Some people are best helped by giving them security, opportunity and a bit of self respect, others want nothing more than enough cash to hit Mickey D's. I suspect some people would respond very well to their own tiny house and tiny yard; that other people would not does not make the concept worthless.

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There are many conservative values that could help to heal the sick. A place to call home. A community that cares. A culture of real values like real Christians are supposed to have. Small houses around a community center with some agricultural or artistic or commercial endeavor and educational process would be a good thing, I think. We do not know that the real enemy is us and we will need to know that to survive, I think.
Well said, Moonie.

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Originally Posted by Texashiker View Post
Gut feeling.

I have a theory that cramped living conditions like our modern cities drive people insane. For tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of years people roamed the wilderness looking for food.

We were never meant to be living on top of each other, or our houses touching each other.

Everyone one of use yearns for peace and quiet. To listen to the wind blow, the listen to the birds and watch the squirrels. That yearning that is never fulfilled slowing drives people in the inner city crazy.

Kinda like the movie "into the wild"?
For some people, I agree. Others take great pleasure in living in very high densities that would drive me insane. For some reason, those who thrive on living in very high densities always want to force that lifestyle on everyone else. But I suppose that's a core human tendency.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:45 PM   #60
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This is what I don't understand. What do you mean by this?
A couple of examples,

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009...urban_gar.html

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/02/140903...-urban-terrain

Take land that has been abandoned and seized for taxes, and turn it into something people can use.

To quote Thomas Jefferson,

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Cultivators of the earth are the most valuable citizens. They are the most vigorous, the most independant, the most virtuous, and they are tied to their country and wedded to it's liberty and interests by the most lasting bands.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:11 PM   #61
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obamaCide (obama care) will solve the problem.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:15 PM   #62
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A couple of examples,

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009...urban_gar.html

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/02/140903...-urban-terrain

Take land that has been abandoned and seized for taxes, and turn it into something people can use.
Don't get me wrong, I like urban farming and grower co-ops. All great things.

But urban farming is primarily a movement among educated members of society looking for healthy food options, not poor uneducated people reclaiming land to subsistence farm.

Plus all that dying space really only exists in the rust belt, in any vibrant city the land would have been repurposed for other uses. To quote your own article:

Quote:
"It could never happen in another city. I mean, this is ridiculous to think about this much land," Kemp says. "There are very few houses that have another house next to them. So everybody can have at least an extra yard, you know. That's really the gift of Detroit."
I don't know, I get where you are coming from. Those lower in society need something to live for, to have pride in. I think at a working class level the solution is subsidized blue collar jobs, but with the homeless many value freedom and a lack of responsibilities more than their personal dignity.

Maybe some sort of program where the homeless can volunteer to be moved to a rural community, and for that they are given some land and a home?
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:29 PM   #63
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Some Homeless could be helped by it, but not all as others mentioned about Mental Health issues and what not.

I think that allowing such homes has a side benefit though. That being, that it allows homes that are more affordable to more people. There are a lot of Working Poor who could actually afford to Buy one of these. One down side though is that it could worsen Urban Sprawl. When it comes down to it, Apartments or High Rise Condos are the better solution in large cities.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:38 PM   #64
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Don't get me wrong, I like urban farming and grower co-ops. All great things.

But urban farming is primarily a movement among educated members of society looking for healthy food options, not poor uneducated people reclaiming land to subsistence farm.

I don't know, I get where you are coming from. Those lower in society need something to live for, to have pride in. I think at a working class level the solution is subsidized blue collar jobs, but with the homeless many value freedom and a lack of responsibilities more than their personal dignity.
Just about everything I know about homeless comes from watching documentaries. But these are people we are talking about, people with feelings, needs and wants just like everyone else. People just like you and me and everyone else on this forum. And for that they deserve better than what society is providing for them.

Past our civilized culture, past the game consoles and smart phones, and past the concrete jungles, I believe there is a desire in most people (not all people) to return to basics. I think we the vast majority yearn to live a simple life. How many of us would trade a life in the rat race to live in the country? Probably a good percentage.

If society were the take the homeless, and take the people that are mentally ill, give them a place they can call their own and the chance live a simple life, would they accept it?

If we can spend billions to put a rover on mars, why cant we take care of people in our own backyard.

Last edited by Texashiker; 12-16-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:57 PM   #65
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How do you feel when people complement you. Do you resist speaking highly of yourself or thinking such thoughts. Have you ever said to yourself when something bad happens "Just my luck". Do you ever cry when you win or are profoundly happy. Have you ever experienced a panic attack if you deeply relax. Ever had a bad trip on drugs, experienced irrational fears? Show me a phenomena in the human world that can't be understood as self hate.

I was taught what I had already come to suspect but had not completely integrated. I got as far as seeing that folk everywhere believed what they believe to deny pain I could no longer pretend wasn't there. I had already dies when I met somebody who showed me things worse than being dead and which to my utter astonishment I was able to confirm by feeling them.

We do not feel what we feel because we feel lies, the feeling of being the worst in the world, put there long ago as children by being put down. Know that you were born completely defenseless and any pain you were subjected to was felt at the greatest degree that a human being can feel. So while we have all been maximally traumatized it's worse for some than others. There are differences in the horror we have seen.
I have experienced the things you first listed and reacted in those ways at times, but other times I accepted the compliment and felt reinforced that others backed me. Yes I crave acceptance from others at times but other times I am secure enough to proceed with confidence. Hard to evaluate myself accurately here without a lot more thought but it sounds like you got something here.
As long as we have a society where certain things are acceptable and other things are not, then children will be told when they do wrong and right. Otherwise they will be left to grow wild and develop according to their nature, and we don't want that because our nature is less than pretty.
I don't recall being told I was a worthless piece of garbage when I was young. When I did something inconsiderate to others, I was told it was wrong. If that's trauma then I can't see how that's avoidable.

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And yet you want people to live in houses that are more cramped than any apartment I've ever seen, and you want to line these houses up in a lot with a tiny bit of grass allotted to each? Sounds like a big facade to me.

Our ancestors spent many thousands of years hunting and gathering (more of the latter than the former, really). And their ancestors spent millions of years before that as more primitive apes. Maybe we should live more like ancient apes did, I'm sure they spent an awful lot of without changing how they lived an awful lot so that's how things are meant to be, right?

With a few million people in the ancient world a hunter/gatherer lifestyle is possible. That ship has long since sailed. Putting people in little houses isn't going to change anything. Having a little fence and tiny outdoor garden isn't going to mean anything for most people outside of the superficial imagery that goes along with the so-called American dream of owning a house and land.
I like the insight and timeless consideration here. I don't agree that there is any good or bad way for people to live, at least regarding the things being discussed here. We can't live like we used to, so we have to look forward. However we adapt will be how we adapt. As Carl Sagan said, these are just a few of the things that molecules do given a few billion years of evolution. We are an experiment and there is no instruction manual for humanity to follow. It is written as we go. If something works, it will be done. If it doesn't work, we will figure that out as we go by having discussions like these and when the pain becomes great enough to force change, then we will either change or die.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:24 PM   #66
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I think the answer to some of America's problems would be if everyone lived in smaller homes.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:18 PM   #67
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I think the answer to some of America's problems would be if everyone lived in smaller homes.
...and ate smaller meals, and drove smaller cars, and bought smaller things...

























...and maintained a smaller army...
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:24 PM   #68
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Free public health care is probably the biggest part of the answer to the homeless problem.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:43 PM   #69
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Free public health care is probably the biggest part of the answer to the homeless problem.
How so?

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Old 12-16-2013, 06:44 PM   #70
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How so?

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Free access to mental health medications.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:03 PM   #71
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section 8?
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:00 PM   #72
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Probably because many homeless have mental issues and/or drug problems. Contrary to what right wing nuts say most homeless are not homeless due to laziness but other issues.
drug abuse is a form of laziness.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:12 PM   #73
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Not that homeless people are a problem, but getting them off the streets is a problem that needs to be answered.

Lady built herself a home on a lowboy trailer for $11,416.16. While building the home she fell off the roof injuring her back. the article says she broke her back, but she is still able to walk.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...architect.html



The most expensive item in the house is a $2,000 compost toilet.

Why can't counties take land that has been seized for back taxes, get with a not-for-profit organization and build the homeless community a series of tiny homes?

Get the people off the streets, get them into a centralized location, get them some donated clothes, job training, health check-ups for stuff like TB,,, and improve the overall quality of the community.
Ya mean that "homeless" problem the US did not have before Reagan emptied out the Mental Hospitals?
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:53 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Texashiker View Post
Not that homeless people are a problem, but getting them off the streets is a problem that needs to be answered.

Lady built herself a home on a lowboy trailer for $11,416.16. While building the home she fell off the roof injuring her back. the article says she broke her back, but she is still able to walk.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...architect.html



The most expensive item in the house is a $2,000 compost toilet.

Why can't counties take land that has been seized for back taxes, get with a not-for-profit organization and build the homeless community a series of tiny homes?

Get the people off the streets, get them into a centralized location, get them some donated clothes, job training, health check-ups for stuff like TB,,, and improve the overall quality of the community.
I don't see her ceiling fan in that total.
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Old 12-17-2013, 01:09 AM   #75
DucatiMonster696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimzz View Post
Probably because many homeless have mental issues and/or drug problems. Contrary to what right wing nuts say most homeless are not homeless due to laziness but other issues.
A large number of the homeless are vets, most accounts show over 10% of homeless are Veterans.
I live in SF where homelessness has been a big issue. In fact the city of San Francisco has spent around 326 (plus or minus) million dollars (yes $326 MILLION DOLLARS in housing, services, medical care, etc from city, state and federal dollars for the city of San Francisco, one city people!) on the issue year after year since 2010. If you think you can solve this issue by throwing money at the problem you are wrong.

Those who are homeless by choice, (yes not taking your meds, or not wanting treatment for a drug or alcohol problem is a choice that these people make) will not stop being homeless no matter how much money you throw at "non-profits" and guess what you can't force these often chronically homeless people to change because the "Homeless" industrial complex of "non-profits" supported by the city will fight you tooth and nail if you attempt to do this in order to get these people off the streets. That isn't to say that there are not people who become homeless due to economic reasons but then work their way out of that situation in life however they account for a small percentage of the permanently homeless population in SF.

Edit: Oh and all told the city of San Francisco has spent over a $1 BILLION DOLLAR$ on the issue all told back when Gavin Newsom was still mayor up to 2010.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier...ns-3173290.php

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancis...nt?oid=2183605
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Last edited by DucatiMonster696; 12-17-2013 at 01:34 AM.
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