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Old 10-03-2012, 10:13 PM   #1
Sharchaster
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Default NVIDIA Response GTX 600 Series Voltage Control

We contacted Nvidia for comment and received a response from their Senior PR Manager, Bryan Del Rizzo with the following,

"Green Light was created to help ensure that all of the GTX boards in the market all have great acoustics, temperatures, and mechanicals. This helps to ensure our GTX customers get the highest quality product that runs quiet, cool, and fits in their PC. GTX is a measureable brand, and Green Light is a promise to ensure that the brand remains as strong as possible by making sure the products brought to market meet our highest quality requirements.

Reducing RMAs has never been a focus of Green Light.

We support overvoltaging up to a limit on our products, but have a maximum reliability spec that is intended to protect the life of the product. We donít want to see customers disappointed when their card dies in a year or two because the voltage was raised too high.

Regarding overvoltaging above our max spec, we offer AICs two choices:

∑ Ensure the GPU stays within our operating specs and have a full warranty from NVIDIA.

∑ Allow the GPU to be manually operated outside specs in which case NVIDIA provides no warranty.

We prefer AICs ensure the GPU stays within spec and encourage this through warranty support, but itís ultimately up to the AIC what they want to do. Their choice does not affect allocation. And this has no bearing on the end user warranty provided by the AIC. It is simply a warranty between NVIDIA and the AIC.

With Green Light, we donít really go out of the way to look for ways that AICs enable manual OV. As I stated, this isnít the core purpose of the program. Yes, youíve seen some cases of boards getting out into the market with OV features only to have them disabled later. This is due to the fact that AICs decided later that they would prefer to have a warranty. This is simply a choice the AICs each need to make for themselves. How, or when they make this decision, is entirely up to them.

With regards to your MSI comment below, we gave MSI the same choice I referenced above -- change their SW to disable OV above our reliability limit or not obtain a warranty. They simply chose to change their software in lieu of the warranty. Their choice. It is not ours to make, and we donít influence them one way or the other.

In short, Green Light is an especially important program for a major, new product introduction like Kepler, where our AICs donít have a lot of experience building and working with our new technologies, but also extends the flexibility to AICs who provide a design that can operate outside of the reliability limits of the board. And, if you look at the products in the market today, there is obviously evidence of differentiation. You only need to look at the large assortment of high quality Kepler boards available today, including standard and overclocked editions."

What does this mean for consumers?

"This essentially breaks down to giving consumers fewer options between their cards and limits the innovation that AIBs are capable of implementing in their products. If Nvidia is limiting the AIBs within a set of parameters on their non-reference cards, then they are hurting those board vendors' most profitable products. This gives consumers less choice, while enabling Nvidia to theoretically have lower RMAs. Such a program does, however, make sense if you think about the perception of Nvidia if all of their board partners are running amok. They obviously have to have a certain level of control over what their AIBs do with their GPUs if they are going to warranty them. But, we believe that Nvidia has gone too far in their restrictions on board partners and amount of control they exercise in the process.

So, the Green Light program is a program that we believe hurts AIBs and consumers while enabling Nvidia to reduce their RMA rate and improve their margins. If you are an Nvidia investor, this is great news, but if you are a consumer, this is clearly bad news. Nvidia claims that this has to do with the quality of the product and smoothness of launches, however, we believe that in the end it's all about money."

http://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=162220.0
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:16 PM   #2
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I think the guy gave a great explanation, and it makes sense. It's obviously about money, whether it's Nvidia or the AIB that makes the choice.

The current iteration of Kepler (which was supposed to be midrange, but Nvidia overclocked the hell out of it once they realized they couldnt make a true high end part on time etc etc) is at its limit in terms of speed and voltage and they don't want to deal with massive RMA situations.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:18 PM   #3
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They should really call it the Red Light program.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:22 AM   #4
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Strange how AMD didn't warranty the AWSUM switch on the 6990 but the AIB's still provided it and covered the warranty themselves.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:26 AM   #5
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Either way this definitely reflects NVIDIA in a bad light, they either are aware that the GTX 6xx are at their extreme limit and will certainly die if voltage is added, or they are not wanting consumers to overclock and rather pay the high premium for the slight performance gain.

My next card will be a HD 8XXX. Screw them if they are being even greedier then before. I care about price/performance, but this will tip the scales in favor of the competition provided AMD doesn't mess with voltage control.

I'll vote with my $$$.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:38 AM   #6
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Am I the only person who doesn't really care? My 670 works. And the people who care - the people who are over clocking - are the minority here. It's nVidia's right to say what they will warrant, and it seems PERFECTLY reasonable to say that you must remain at the correct voltages...else they have to pay for it in RMAs for dead chips.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:01 AM   #7
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Am I the only person who doesn't really care? My 670 works. And the people who care - the people who are over clocking - are the minority here.
No [duh], if you dont OC why would you care? State a more obvious statement next time please...

Pardon my french.

This is a forum full of tech enthusiasts, with the vast majority involved in OC. We are NOT the minority, you see ppls sig? OC CPU, OC GPU, custom cooled etc etc.

Edit: Had to laugh, you OC the heck out of your Ivy Bridge which is even more hypocritical.

Edit 2: The gtx460/560 series was amongst the best, the major factor: They OC excellently, and NV fans sure as hell reminded everyone of this "feature". Now that kepler isn't great for OC, suddenly OC is not a factor? Don't be so obviously biased.

Let's skip the profanity, guys
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:31 AM   #8
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Kepler is a great oc chip. My GTX670 with a base clock of 920MHz runs at 1300MHz - that's 41% higher.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:52 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Silverforce11 View Post
No s***, if you dont OC why would you care? State a more obvious statement next time please...

Pardon my french.

This is a forum full of tech enthusiasts, with the vast majority involved in OC. We are NOT the minority, you see ppls sig? OC CPU, OC GPU, custom cooled etc etc.

Edit: Had to laugh, you OC the heck out of your Ivy Bridge which is even more hypocritical.

Edit 2: The gtx460/560 series was amongst the best, the major factor: They OC excellently, and NV fans sure as hell reminded everyone of this "feature". Now that kepler isn't great for OC, suddenly OC is not a factor? Don't be so obviously biased.
Calm yourself. Use of an expletive indicates an emotional response. And that isn't French.

This forum is full of ALL kinds of people with ALL ranges of computer experience from newbies to experts and anywhere in between. And yes, overclockers are BY FAR the minority of PC users here. Or did you mean just this subforum?

A lot of gamers o/c their CPU's to be fast enough to feed their monster GPU's as well.
The GTX460/560 were good price performance GPUs anyway, without overclocking.
And you're not one to accuse anyone of being obviously biased. Would you rather him be secretly biased?
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:04 AM   #10
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Kepler is a great oc chip. My GTX670 with a base clock of 920MHz runs at 1300MHz - that's 41% higher.
Kepler is a horrible OC chip. My GTX680 with a base clock of 1006 MHz runs at 1058 MHz. See what I did there? Blanket statements are no good :Colbert:

Anyway, I don't think Nvidia did anything wrong. The stupidity lies with the AIB who sells you an obviously custom, designed for OC card (Classified, Lightning, DC II, SOC), and STILL lock voltage. If you're paying a premium, they should forfeit their warranty from Nvidia and cover you themselves (to a point).
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:19 AM   #11
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Everybody knew the Keplers had locked voltages before making their purchase, if you don't like it go AMD ?
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:19 AM   #12
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Kepler is a horrible OC chip. My GTX680 with a base clock of 1006 MHz runs at 1058 MHz. See what I did there? Blanket statements are no good :Colbert:

Anyway, I don't think Nvidia did anything wrong. The stupidity lies with the AIB who sells you an obviously custom, designed for OC card (Classified, Lightning, DC II, SOC), and STILL lock voltage. If you're paying a premium, they should forfeit their warranty from Nvidia and cover you themselves (to a point).
Interesting quote. I wonder how you would feel today if you bought an EVGA GTX680 Classified for a premium price only to find out that Nvidia might not stand behind it because EVGA made it with a volt mod!
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:25 AM   #13
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Kepler is a great oc chip. My GTX670 with a base clock of 920MHz runs at 1300MHz - that's 41% higher.
Heh, next time quote the idle frequency. More impressive percentage and not much farther from the truth.

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Calm yourself. Use of an expletive indicates an emotional response. And that isn't French.

This forum is full of ALL kinds of people with ALL ranges of computer experience from newbies to experts and anywhere in between. And yes, overclockers are BY FAR the minority of PC users here. Or did you mean just this subforum?

A lot of gamers o/c their CPU's to be fast enough to feed their monster GPU's as well.
The GTX460/560 were good price performance GPUs anyway, without overclocking.
And you're not one to accuse anyone of being obviously biased. Would you rather him be secretly biased?
Welp, show's over. Overclockers are a minority making it a non-issue that they get screwed over. Need I remind you that people running dedicated GPUs are also a minority? And I'm pretty sure that overclockers make up a far larger number once you look at the people using 200$+ GPUs.

Anyways, it comes down to a company limiting my options, making their product worse, for no reason other than a cash grab. Not really a fan of that.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:29 AM   #14
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Interesting quote. I wonder how you would feel today if you bought an EVGA GTX680 Classified for a premium price only to find out that Nvidia might not stand behind it because EVGA made it with a volt mod!
I bought a DC II and volt modded it. I knew what I was buying when I bought it, most of us do. It's not Nvidias responsibility to stand behind a custom built card like a Classified. That responsibility should end and transfer to EVGA when EVGA buys that tray of GPUs to put on their custom design. Why should Nvidia cover a 100% custom card?
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:40 AM   #15
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Heh, next time quote the idle frequency. More impressive percentage and not much farther from the truth.



Welp, show's over. Overclockers are a minority making it a non-issue that they get screwed over. Need I remind you that people running dedicated GPUs are also a minority? And I'm pretty sure that overclockers make up a far larger number once you look at the people using 200$+ GPUs.

Anyways, it comes down to a company limiting my options, making their product worse, for no reason other than a cash grab. Not really a fan of that.
What do you mean by the term "welp"?
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:43 AM   #16
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What do you mean by the term "welp"?
An expletive used to convey something akin to surprise. Think *shrug* and the like.

Edit: I probably could've worded my earlier post better. I meant that losing an option without any upsides is bad regardless and can't be ignored by stating that only a minority used it.

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Old 10-04-2012, 08:58 AM   #17
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The current iteration of Kepler (which was supposed to be midrange, but Nvidia overclocked the hell out of it
This would also bring massively high power draws and hard to control temperatures, something we are not at all seeing with Kepler. Weird. Anyways, I can go above 1300mhz stable with my 670, doesn't seem like my particular ship was "overclocked the hell out of" at all. I would think that if these chips were "overclocked the hell out of" from the get go, another 30-35% simply would not be at all possible, not even remotely close, on air cooling.

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Old 10-04-2012, 09:04 AM   #18
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This would also bring massively high power draws and hard to control temperatures, something we are not at all seeing with Kepler. Weird.
Your smug sarcasm has been noted. So quick to jump on the defense lol O_o

Anyway, the fact that Kepler was overclocked from original specs and is STILL so efficient is pretty awesome.

As for overclocking, you win some, you lose some. Some suck, some are golden, most are average. We all know that.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:09 AM   #19
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From a business standpoint, I think what Nvidia has done is perfectly acceptable. Now that RMA's for the Kepler Cards have been coming in for some time, the engineers have come back saying that these cards should not be over-volted.

They did not just all of the sudden decide to take away an enthusiast feature and angering the customer base for the heck of it.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:17 AM   #20
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What do you mean by the term "welp"?
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:45 AM   #21
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Your smug sarcasm has been noted. So quick to jump on the defense lol O_o

Anyway, the fact that Kepler was overclocked from original specs and is STILL so efficient is pretty awesome.

As for overclocking, you win some, you lose some. Some suck, some are golden, most are average. We all know that.
Original specs? Please share.

Assuming you are just guessing in an attempt to support what you're saying, and you have no knowledge of "original specs," then may I point out you are dismissing the laws of physics and irrefutable proof with your ridiculous claims of GK104 being red lined at 1050mhz. It's a proven fact over and over again, pointed out in nicely diagramed illustrations many many times by moderator Idontcare, that when you overclock power draw raises linearly, and when you overvolt it raises exponentially. For Kepler to be "overclocked the hell out of" does not add up with respect to it's power draw. Perf/watt will suffer. It's as simple as that. Yet, GK104 power draw is really, really good AND GK104 showed better perf/watt improvement vs. GF114 and GF110 than AMD showed with Tahiti and Cayman - which, again, would not at all be remotely possible if GK104 was massively "overclocked" off the assembly line. Golden samples in the GPU world are typically reserved for chips that get 30-50%. If you are saying GK104 is massively overclocked from the start and I'm getting another 35% out of it - that isn't golden. It's 50 lb. diamond nugget.

GK104 is bandwidth strapped. It's core, however, is not being redlined at reference speeds.

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Old 10-04-2012, 10:18 AM   #22
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Redlined at 1050? Uhh no. Ive owned 3 and they've all hit 1250+. Do they STILL HIT 1250+? Only one of them does.

What I'm referencing is the massively repeated "GTX680 Kepler was supposed to be mid range, but haha Nvidia overclocked it and beat AMD lulz" line that all the fanboys repeat every chance they get. There's been evidence to support that claim, it's been posted here, search and Google are your friend. When I first got my 680 on launch day, Nvidias own auto detect on their site told me my cards default clock was ~700 MHz. It kept showing that until what, July? Also, in some cases, the original drivers that reviewers were using locked cards to those lower speeds too.

Some guys here and at ocn.net can no longer reach the original overclocked speeds their cards were hitting when they were new. I'm one of them, and this is on voltage locked cards. My DC II that I modded hit 1500 MHz, but after about a month of that at 1.225 V and sub 40C temps, anything over 1350 was unstable.

Anyway, Nvidia knows what they're doing by locking it down. They didn't just pull it outta their poop shooter.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:35 AM   #23
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The problem is chimax...you were running 1.2v. Heat does not destroy processors voltage does. Second the reason nvidia has these limits is because of the reason I mentioned way back. They knew something they didn't want us to know about. These gpus have issues, serious flaws and without tight controls can basically die. That is the only reason for nvidia to even worry about rma. AMD, love them or hate them acty made a better overall gpu. Granted their software and xfire needs some work but the hardware doesn't have issues when people want to try to squeeze a little more performance from it by increasing voltage and raising clock speeds.

I was called a tin foil hat wearer but now it seems as if I was at least partially right the whole time.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:39 AM   #24
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Either way this definitely reflects NVIDIA in a bad light, they either are aware that the GTX 6xx are at their extreme limit and will certainly die if voltage is added, or they are not wanting consumers to overclock and rather pay the high premium for the slight performance gain.

My next card will be a HD 8XXX. Screw them if they are being even greedier then before. I care about price/performance, but this will tip the scales in favor of the competition provided AMD doesn't mess with voltage control.

I'll vote with my $$$.
What a surprise!
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:08 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by chimaxi83 View Post
If you're paying a premium, they should forfeit their warranty from Nvidia and cover you themselves (to a point).
That sir, is the most sensible thing I've seen yet about this. Most people are getting pretty emotional about this and only seeing their side. I like overclocking too and am glad to have more options to do so. But since when has overclocking and all manner of adjustments that go with it been a mainstream thing? Many are certainly acting like it is. It has always been an enthusiast endeavor where one assumes a certain amount of risk of instability and/or damage from doing so, hence the need for product specifications and the disclaimers in product warranties for going outside those specs not just for graphics cards but for everything. So if the manufactures are going to do stuff like this "out of the box" then from a business standpoint they ought to be the ones to back any failures as a result.

I think the market will largely determine where this goes long term. If the masses end up demanding certain features and vote with their dollars by purchasing competitive products that provide those features, then competition will continue and Nvidia/AMD both will be forced to meet market demand or lose sales.
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