Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Hardware and Technology > Video Cards and Graphics

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Home and Garden
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2014
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-01-2012, 06:26 PM   #1
ViRGE
Super Moderator
Elite Member
 
ViRGE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 30,343
Default Galaxy GeForce GTX 650 Ti For Sale At Newegg

Humm, I thought this wasn't launching until next week? In any case, Galaxy's card is already up at Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814162127

GPU: GeForce GTX 650 Ti

Core Clock: 966MHz

CUDA Cores: 768

Effective Memory Clock: 5400MHz

Memory Size: 1GB

Memory Interface: 128-bit

Memory Type: GDDR5
__________________
ViRGE
Team Anandtech: Assimilating a computer near you!
GameStop - An upscale specialized pawnshop that happens to sell new games on the side
Todd the Wraith: On Fruit Bowls - I hope they prove [to be] as delicious as the farmers who grew them
ViRGE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 06:45 PM   #2
3DVagabond
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posts: 8,599
Default

It appears to have been pulled.
3DVagabond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 06:48 PM   #3
ViRGE
Super Moderator
Elite Member
 
ViRGE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 30,343
Default

Haha, that was fast work by NV no doubt.
__________________
ViRGE
Team Anandtech: Assimilating a computer near you!
GameStop - An upscale specialized pawnshop that happens to sell new games on the side
Todd the Wraith: On Fruit Bowls - I hope they prove [to be] as delicious as the farmers who grew them
ViRGE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 06:53 PM   #4
Termie
Diamond Member
 
Termie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 7,166
Default

How is there any advantage to the consumer to have a card this short? It's actually shorter than the PCIe slot itself, despite requiring a PCIe power connector.



By the way, at ~80% of the theoretical GPU power of a 660 and 60% of the memory bandwidth, I think we're looking at a dog here. It will perform well below an HD7850 1GB, which is already available at $170AR. If it's priced to compete with the HD7770, then it's a welcome addition, otherwise, it should be completely ignored just like the 550Ti it's replacing.
__________________
Work: 3770K | Hyper 212+ | Asus Max V Gene | 290 Tri-X | 16GB | 830 256GB | TJ08B-E | x650 | U2713HM
Gaming: 4770K@4.5 | H100i | ASRock Z97 Ex4 | 780 Ti SLI | 16GB | MX100 512GB | 500R | EVGA G2 850W | Asus VG248QE
HTPC: 4690K@4.0 | CM S524 | ASRock Z97E | HD7870 | 8GB | 1TB SSHD | SG08 | CX500M | Samsung 55" 4K
Looking for holiday tech gifts? Check out The 2014 Holiday Buyer's Guide at The Tech Buyer's Guru!
How does RAM speed affect gaming? Find out in TBG's article Does RAM Speed Matter?

Last edited by Termie; 10-01-2012 at 06:56 PM.
Termie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 07:20 PM   #5
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 15,076
Default

How much was it? 86GB/sec memory bandwidth, right?

HD6950 2GB for $170
HD7850 1-2GB go for $175-190 now.

I am guessing this card will have to be priced at $149 and below. Knowing how low-end cards tend to be overpriced initially, I am going with $169.99.
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1

Last edited by RussianSensation; 10-01-2012 at 07:23 PM.
RussianSensation is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 07:23 PM   #6
3DVagabond
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posts: 8,599
Default

While it was up it was $149, IIRC.
3DVagabond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 07:24 PM   #7
LOL_Wut_Axel
Diamond Member
 
LOL_Wut_Axel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: San Juan, PR
Posts: 4,278
Default

Yeah, it looks like more crap from NVIDIA this series. The Radeon HD 7850 should make quick work of this, especially if you factor in overclocking.

The HD 7850 is $200 and the HD 7770 is $120. How is NVIDIA gonna compete with that?
__________________
Pentium G3258 @4.3GHz | MSI Z87-G41 PC Mate | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB, Seagate Barracuda 3TB | Sapphire Radeon HD 7950 Boost Dual-X, PNY GeForce GTX 465 | 8GB Kingston HyperX Genesis DDR3-1600 | Corsair RM750 | Corsair Carbide 400R

HP EliteBook 2560p | Core i5-2520M, 6GB Crucial DDR3, A-DATA SP900 128GB, 1TB Toshiba 5400RPM

Last edited by LOL_Wut_Axel; 10-01-2012 at 07:27 PM.
LOL_Wut_Axel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 07:24 PM   #8
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 15,076
Default

Let's hope it at least beats the $149 HD6870 1GB then.
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1
RussianSensation is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 07:56 PM   #9
railven
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,210
Default

That's as short as the GTX 650 it seems. When I was about to buy one for a PhysX Card I remember it was 90% Heatsink and fan and some PCB haha. I thought it was cute.

EDIT: This little guy:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814162124



Oh, looks identical!
__________________
Me: ASRock Z68 Gen3Pro3||Intel i7 2600K@4.2ghz||2x4GB Corsair Vengeance||MSI GTX 780 Lightning||Creative Z||Samsung 840 Evo/OCZ Vertex 4||Corsair Carbide 500R White||Corsair TX750W||Corsair H60
Her: ASrock Z77 Pro4||Intel i5 3570K||2x4GB Corsair Vengeance||EVGA GTX 680 + 100 Offset||ASUS Xonar DG||Samsung 840 Evo/Intel 320||Cooler Master Scout||Corsair 600W GS||Cooler Master 212+ Evo
railven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:00 PM   #10
Red Hawk
Platinum Member
 
Red Hawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,199
Default

The closer this is in price to the 7770, the better. Is this GK107 or a harvested GK106?
__________________
Desktop: Thermaltake V-4 Black case | Gigabyte GA-Z68AP-D3 | Core i5 2500k @ 4 GHz | MSI R9-270X @ 1120 MHz | 8 GB G.Skill DDR3 RAM 1333 MHz | 120GB OCZ Vertex 3 SSD & Western Digital 500 GB HDD | Antec 650w PSU | Acer 1080p 60 Hz 24'' | Windows 8.1 Professional
Laptop: ASUS K52Jr-X5 | Core i3-350m @ 2.26 GHz| Mobility Radeon HD 5470 1 GB @ 750 MHz 4 GB DDR3 RAM | 90 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD | 1366x768 15.6'' | Windows 8.1 Professional
Red Hawk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:02 PM   #11
LOL_Wut_Axel
Diamond Member
 
LOL_Wut_Axel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: San Juan, PR
Posts: 4,278
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Hawk View Post
The closer this is in price to the 7770, the better. Is this GK107 or a harvested GK106?
Heavily cut-down GK106.
__________________
Pentium G3258 @4.3GHz | MSI Z87-G41 PC Mate | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB, Seagate Barracuda 3TB | Sapphire Radeon HD 7950 Boost Dual-X, PNY GeForce GTX 465 | 8GB Kingston HyperX Genesis DDR3-1600 | Corsair RM750 | Corsair Carbide 400R

HP EliteBook 2560p | Core i5-2520M, 6GB Crucial DDR3, A-DATA SP900 128GB, 1TB Toshiba 5400RPM
LOL_Wut_Axel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:09 PM   #12
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 15,076
Default

Here is a chart with the specs; says $149 MSRP:
http://videocardz.com/35203/asus-gef...ation-unveiled

On paper, this card looks to be at least 50% slower than the 660.
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1
RussianSensation is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:11 PM   #13
BenSkywalker
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,955
Default

10% more memory bandwidth then the 650, ~100% more shader power. ~30% less bandwidth and close to the same shader power as the 660.

I'm thinking at $150 this is probably going to be a rather good part as long as those specs were correct. Looks like it is a GK106 based chip, not GK107 like the 650 non Ti. From raw specs it looks like it should slot in between the 7770 and 7850 rather nicely, which would be fitting for the $150 price point.

Edit- Hmmm, which core count is right, the one that was on NewEgg or the one that RS linked? If it is the one that was on NewEgg this should be a pretty strong part, the spes in RS's link make it look quite a bit weaker.

Quote:
On paper, this card looks to be at least 50% slower than the 660.
Huh? Not really close to that, I don't even know how you would come to that conclusion, although it does appear to be a much weaker part then the one that was linked in the OP, even if the numbers from your link are correct it should be closer to 60%-70% the speed of a 660.

Last edited by BenSkywalker; 10-01-2012 at 08:14 PM.
BenSkywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:14 PM   #14
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 15,076
Default

That's a good point regarding the specs. Everywhere I read it's 576 CUDA cores, not 768. 768 is the 660SE?

http://videocardz.com/35234/asus-gef...op-oc-detailed

This card for $150 will get creamed if these specs are right: 48 TMUs, 576 CUDA cores, 86 GB/sec memory bandwidth. This is almost half of a 660.

"The GTX 650 Ti is based on the GK106 silicon, but with an entire GPC disabled, resulting in a CUDA core count of 576, and TMU count of 48. The memory bus width appears to have been reduced to 128-bit, with a standard memory amount of 1 GB. With a memory clock speed of 1350 MHz (5.40 GHz GDDR5-effective), a memory bandwidth of 86 GB/s is achieved. The GPU is clocked at 960 MHz, there is no GPU Boost feature. With the given configuration, the GPU TDP is expected to be no more than 85W."



Can't see how a card with 85W TDP has any chance against the 7850 or 6950 2GB. Of course it'll be priced lower but even then $150 for an 86GB/sec card is a lot of $ because it basically means noAA.

I think this card is aimed squarely between HD7770 and HD7850 because AMD has no modern 28nm GPU in the $139-149 range.
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1

Last edited by RussianSensation; 10-01-2012 at 08:22 PM.
RussianSensation is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:24 PM   #15
Red Hawk
Platinum Member
 
Red Hawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,199
Default

550 Ti actually had more bandwidth (98.4 GB/s).
__________________
Desktop: Thermaltake V-4 Black case | Gigabyte GA-Z68AP-D3 | Core i5 2500k @ 4 GHz | MSI R9-270X @ 1120 MHz | 8 GB G.Skill DDR3 RAM 1333 MHz | 120GB OCZ Vertex 3 SSD & Western Digital 500 GB HDD | Antec 650w PSU | Acer 1080p 60 Hz 24'' | Windows 8.1 Professional
Laptop: ASUS K52Jr-X5 | Core i3-350m @ 2.26 GHz| Mobility Radeon HD 5470 1 GB @ 750 MHz 4 GB DDR3 RAM | 90 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD | 1366x768 15.6'' | Windows 8.1 Professional
Red Hawk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:31 PM   #16
f1sherman
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,199
Default

hahaha you guys

you were slamming $149 card with 90% of 7850 perf,
poor NV, they'll sell 5 of them

and now it turns out it's 25% slower card. and it will still go for $149.

seriously get a grip, it's painful to read this bad predictions/market analysis.
f1sherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #17
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 15,076
Default

I didn't read the 768 CUDA cores in the OP since every site that so far posted pics of the 650Ti had it at 576. If it does indeed have specs that are totally different from the rumored, the story changes. Not once did I think from the rumored specs that the card would have anywhere near 90% of 7850's performance. If it has 90% of 7850's performance for $150, that would actually be a good card. I still think the card you are thinking of is the 660SE that's been floated around.

Also, NV has sold crap in millions of units: See FX5200 (and well the entire GeForce 5 series). 650Ti selling well at $150 doesn't mean anything at all in terms of how gamers view it. Some people won't buy an HD7970 if it was $150 because they won't buy AMD cards. NV's ability to sell cards is separate from concluding on how good the card itself is vs. the competition in the eyes of PC enthusiasts/gamers.

NV has also sold GTS450 and 550Ti cards very well (I believe 550Ti was the best selling card on Amazon for a while) and both of those debuted at $149 I believe, very much overpriced. So again, NV could very well sell millions of 650Tis but it doesn't mean it's a good card for $150 with 86GB/sec, 1GB of VRAM, 48 TMUs and 576 CUDA cores. It would be a lot better if it has just half of a cluster disabled.
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1

Last edited by RussianSensation; 10-01-2012 at 09:02 PM.
RussianSensation is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 09:07 PM   #18
f1sherman
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,199
Default

Well $149, 576cc is meh...
$149, 768cc would be pretty much GREAT, is what I am saying.

Why great? Because duh... NV will get away with only 576cc.
And 768cc would be ~90% of 7850 on relevant settings/resolution, never mind bandwidth.

And it's another way around, not as mentioned by Termi.
Adding another %of cuda cores gives you theoretically % gain.
Slashing % of cc, would slash performance AT MOST by %.

Of course modified with clocks and BW, but except in few games, I doubt 30% less BW would bare much if any diff at relevant res/settings,
f1sherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 11:10 PM   #19
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 15,076
Default

This card's time is running out. HD7850 2GB is dipping to $160 here in Canada:
http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=69...r&promoid=1210

I don't think it'll be long before 7850 2GB is ~ $160 in the US too.
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1

Last edited by RussianSensation; 10-01-2012 at 11:13 PM.
RussianSensation is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 07:58 PM   #20
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 15,076
Default

Good news. Looks like the leaked 576 CUDA core specs were wrong.

TDP goes up from 85 to 110W. There will also be cards with 2GB VRAM option.
Source
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1
RussianSensation is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 09:39 PM   #21
SPBHM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,618
Default

I like those specs, should perform pretty (faster than a GTX 560 maybe?) well for a $150 card,
SPBHM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 10:33 PM   #22
Red Hawk
Platinum Member
 
Red Hawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,199
Default

The 128 bit memory bus width is going to be pretty constraining though. Kind of pointless for a 128 bit memory card to have 2 GB of RAM; it's not like it will ever use that much. It will probably be worse than the 560 Ti at higher resolutions, more MSAA, and higher resolution textures because of low bandwidth. It's not a viable way to undercut the 7850 because of the memory bandwidth, but its shader count should give it a strong advantage over the 7770. Kind of fits right in between.
__________________
Desktop: Thermaltake V-4 Black case | Gigabyte GA-Z68AP-D3 | Core i5 2500k @ 4 GHz | MSI R9-270X @ 1120 MHz | 8 GB G.Skill DDR3 RAM 1333 MHz | 120GB OCZ Vertex 3 SSD & Western Digital 500 GB HDD | Antec 650w PSU | Acer 1080p 60 Hz 24'' | Windows 8.1 Professional
Laptop: ASUS K52Jr-X5 | Core i3-350m @ 2.26 GHz| Mobility Radeon HD 5470 1 GB @ 750 MHz 4 GB DDR3 RAM | 90 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD | 1366x768 15.6'' | Windows 8.1 Professional

Last edited by Red Hawk; 10-03-2012 at 10:43 PM.
Red Hawk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 10:43 PM   #23
SPBHM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,618
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Hawk View Post
The 128 bit memory bus width is going to be pretty constraining though. Kind of pointless for a 128 bit memory card to have 2 GB of RAM; it's not like it will ever use that much. It's not a viable way to undercut the 7850 because of the memory speed, but its shader count should give it a strong advantage over the 7770. Kind of fits right in between.
well, it's not to bad, 5.4GHz, 84GB/s
7770 is 72GB/s, and it's faster than the 6850 in a few games,
SPBHM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 10:55 PM   #24
Red Hawk
Platinum Member
 
Red Hawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,199
Default

The 7770 rarely beats the 6870, and only in situations which aren't memory-bound.

Geforce GTX 650 Ti Bandwidth: 84 GB/s

Geforce GTX 560 Ti Bandwidth: 128 GB/s 150% of 650 Ti
Geforce GTX 660 Bandwidth: 144 GB/s 170% of 650 Ti
Radeon HD 6870 Bandwidth: 134 GB/s 159% of 650 Ti
Radeon HD 7850 Bandwidth: 153 GB/s 182% of 650 Ti

Yeah, this thing is going to be a dog when it comes to memory bandwidth. GTX 650 Ti vs Radeon HD 7850 will be the Geforce GT 640 vs the Radeon HD 7750 all over again -- potential in the shader power, but held back by memory so it just can't compete. Hopefull Nvidia can price it sensibly at least.
__________________
Desktop: Thermaltake V-4 Black case | Gigabyte GA-Z68AP-D3 | Core i5 2500k @ 4 GHz | MSI R9-270X @ 1120 MHz | 8 GB G.Skill DDR3 RAM 1333 MHz | 120GB OCZ Vertex 3 SSD & Western Digital 500 GB HDD | Antec 650w PSU | Acer 1080p 60 Hz 24'' | Windows 8.1 Professional
Laptop: ASUS K52Jr-X5 | Core i3-350m @ 2.26 GHz| Mobility Radeon HD 5470 1 GB @ 750 MHz 4 GB DDR3 RAM | 90 GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD | 1366x768 15.6'' | Windows 8.1 Professional

Last edited by Red Hawk; 10-03-2012 at 10:58 PM.
Red Hawk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 12:40 AM   #25
SPBHM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,618
Default

the kepler cards seem to overclock the memory quite well, if it's possible to run this card at 6.5-7GHz it will probably help a lot.
SPBHM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.