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Old 08-16-2012, 02:11 AM   #1
JimmiG
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Default Please stop refering to the desktop as "Legacy"

I get it, and I even agree to some point. Tablets are "new". They're exciting. They're the "future". However, they are not desktop replacements. They are a new class of devices. They might replace laptops up to ~11 inches, but personally I think the industry will settle on smaller, ~5-7" models, leaving a market for ultra-portable laptops with regular keyboards and trackpads.

I hate it when someone talks about "the old desktop" or "legacy desktop applications" like they're 16-bit DOS applications or something. Fact is, the dekstop and mouse combo is far more efficient for some work. Can you imagine graphics artists trying to re-touch images with their big fat fingers instead of high-preicision optical mice and other input devices? Are developers and IT professionals who run 3 monitors and have dozens of windows open suddenly going to run full-screen applications only? Even office drones often need to pull up several documents side-by-side. Home users often keep multiple windows open at the same time, it's one of the strengths of having a large monitor with lots of screen estate.

The industry hasn't even decided on whether the minimalist That-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named style is the way to go for touch-based devices. If I switch to Windows 8 on my desktop, my Android phone will be *more* desktop-like than my desktop computer. Android (and to a large extent, even iOS) have taken the desktop paradigm and adapted it for phones and tablets. Icons, toolbars, checkboxes and menus are all there. The only thing that's missing is rezisable windows, because the screens are simply too small to keep multiple windows open side by side.
This has worked well - great in fact. Just look at the iOS and Android market share compared to WP7... It's just one company's vision of how touch devices should work, and it's not even one of the big players in the mobile space.
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:12 AM   #2
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You are completely right of course. This whole thing is like the argument that portable game devices will replace home console setups. Tablets are the new Gameboy.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:36 AM   #3
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http://www.technewsworld.com/story/75517.html

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WinRT was also designed to accommodate the increasing shift to mobile computing. The company will push WinRT as a strategic platform for new development, according to Gartner, but that will be a long process. Most users will continue to run Win32 applications for at least another 10 years.

...

Windows Desktop and legacy Windows applications will decline in importance in future Windows client releases, the report projects, especially as the new programming model is meant to lock companies into the next generation of Windows. It predicts that by 2020, enterprise end users will spend less than 10 percent of their time in Win32 applications.
they are phasing the desktop out.


IMO, one of the stupidest move to be ever made.

Expect windows 9 to have less support for legacy (desktop) applications.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:50 AM   #4
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Who is "they?"

I really don't expect to see AutoDesk "go fully mobile." Real CAD guys need "the desktop." I suspect the same thing will happen with most developers and engineering and their respective apps. I am not about to write company documents all day on iPads or whatever. I want a keyboard for that. Mobile/tablet is another platform but it isn't a replacement for the desktop.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:37 AM   #5
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Who is "they?"

I really don't expect to see AutoDesk "go fully mobile."
I'd like to see someone play this out in an Onion -like ad.
"Our industry-leading productivity software just got updated for modern platforms! If you see content you like, you can tweet it on your facebook with a simple click. Not all of our old functionality, like the stuff you need to actually work, will make it to this release, but drop us a yammer via the cloud and let us know what you "like" so we can make your experience even fresher and more exciting!"
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:03 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by imagoon View Post
Who is "they?"

I really don't expect to see AutoDesk "go fully mobile." Real CAD guys need "the desktop." I suspect the same thing will happen with most developers and engineering and their respective apps. I am not about to write company documents all day on iPads or whatever. I want a keyboard for that. Mobile/tablet is another platform but it isn't a replacement for the desktop.
Some time in the future, I think a dockable tablet that output to a monitor, and had a keyboard/mouse would be very useful. You'd be able to take your full power computer on the road, but still be able to get something done at home. You still need a decent desktop interface though. Mobile interfaces aren't appropriate on the desktop.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:43 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by JimmiG View Post
If I switch to Windows 8 on my desktop, my Android phone will be *more* desktop-like than my desktop computer. Android (and to a large extent, even iOS)
People saying this is every bit as annoying as people who call the desktop legacy. There is nothing Windows 7 does that Windows 8 can not do.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:48 AM   #8
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People saying this is every bit as annoying as people who call the desktop legacy. There is nothing Windows 7 does that Windows 8 can not do.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:14 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by imagoon View Post
Who is "they?"

I really don't expect to see AutoDesk "go fully mobile." Real CAD guys need "the desktop." I suspect the same thing will happen with most developers and engineering and their respective apps. I am not about to write company documents all day on iPads or whatever. I want a keyboard for that. Mobile/tablet is another platform but it isn't a replacement for the desktop.
And what is really the difference of smaller form factor with keyboard, mouse and other peripherals?

Laptop on docking station is a desktop to me, just a more evolved and mobile version.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:16 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by lxskllr View Post
Some time in the future, I think a dockable tablet that output to a monitor, and had a keyboard/mouse would be very useful. You'd be able to take your full power computer on the road, but still be able to get something done at home. You still need a decent desktop interface though. Mobile interfaces aren't appropriate on the desktop.
I could see that. I mean Dell / HP both had dockable tablet machines. Big issue I can see is that many of the larger apps will need decent horsepower behind them. Obviously Word doesn't but AutoDesk and the various development systems would. I am not sure a tablet will ever have 32gb of ram and dual xeons with Quadro cards (in the near future... obviously in 2815 that system would be a calculator)

I have also seen iPads with keyboards and stands become quite effective little "meeting note taking machines." Biggest complaint was no mouse. Mostly the user didnt like having to move her hands so much to use the touch and found finger accuracy poor on documents.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:23 PM   #11
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And what is really the difference of smaller form factor with keyboard, mouse and other peripherals?

Laptop on docking station is a desktop to me, just a more evolved and mobile version.
CAD guys I deal with run Dual Xeon boxes with 24-32gb of ram with $5000 Nvidia cards. They don't fit in laptops.

We have a mobile cad station that is basically the most decked out dell mobile precision you can buy and the guys use it for meetings and then move the files back to the big rigs because "it is to slow."

I am not against laptops. I just don't consider the tablet a complete replacement for the things I / my company /does.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:55 PM   #12
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I could see that. I mean Dell / HP both had dockable tablet machines. Big issue I can see is that many of the larger apps will need decent horsepower behind them.
Yea, that's why I specified "the future". I don't know how far into the future that will be, but it's within sight I think. Processor speed and ram as you noted above are the biggest hindrances. It's a bit closer for "normal" home users.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by lxskllr View Post
Yea, that's why I specified "the future". I don't know how far into the future that will be, but it's within sight I think. Processor speed and ram as you noted above are the biggest hindrances. It's a bit closer for "normal" home users.
I really believe that some day we will end up with a true hybrid of systems. I am thinking along the lines of "Star Trek" where the PADD (ie tablet) actually is brain tied to the main computer. The PADD had some brains but was pretty light. Anything heavy duty was handed off to the 3 deck tall main computer core. From there the tablet acted more like a gateway to the bigger system. If you needed a sit terminal you walked over to it and just transferred what ever you were working on to the bigger terminal. Mostly by just "moving the window" to the terminal. (yeah random nerd moment)
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:12 PM   #14
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CAD guys I deal with run Dual Xeon boxes with 24-32gb of ram with $5000 Nvidia cards. They don't fit in laptops.

We have a mobile cad station that is basically the most decked out dell mobile precision you can buy and the guys use it for meetings and then move the files back to the big rigs because "it is to slow."

I am not against laptops. I just don't consider the tablet a complete replacement for the things I / my company /does.
Thats the point what if a tablet could be docked adn have all that power, I would still consider that a desktop setup. Basically anything where you sit a desk with monitor, keyboard mouse.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:14 PM   #15
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I dont see the tablet replacing desktop computers for things that make no sense on a tablet. I think the tablet replacing computers notion stems from the fact that the vast majority of usage by the vast majority of consumers can be handled by a tablet. Nobody is saying it will replace your crazy workstation.

I am typing this on my Nexus7 tablet. I can't remember the last time i powered up my Lenovo x120e netbook!

I don't think desktops or even laptops are going anywhere any time soon, but tablets have their use and can be awesome. This coming from me who always hated tablets.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:18 PM   #16
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Thats the point what if a tablet could be docked adn have all that power, I would still consider that a desktop setup. Basically anything where you sit a desk with monitor, keyboard mouse.
When we get there in the 20-40 years and can still have it the size of an iPad I will reconsider. Granted at that point CAD will likely need that much more CPU anyway so who knows the results.
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:10 PM   #17
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There is nothing Windows 7 does that Windows 8 can not do.
You can not play minesweeper or solitaire while watching a movie.
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:44 PM   #18
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Nor can you open the start menu :-P
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:33 AM   #19
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You can not play minesweeper or solitaire while watching a movie.
I don't know why, but I'm in tears right now. Bravo, hhhd1. Bravo!
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:12 AM   #20
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When we get there in the 20-40 years and can still have it the size of an iPad I will reconsider. Granted at that point CAD will likely need that much more CPU anyway so who knows the results.
No way it takes 20-40 years I don't think you are familiar with how fast computers have evolved.

In less than 10 years your cad computers will be obsoleted by smart phones.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:22 AM   #21
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No way it takes 20-40 years I don't think you are familiar with how fast computers have evolved.

In less than 10 years your cad computers will be obsoleted by smart phones.
You're thinking computers. The GPU's in iPads still get whooped by my S3Virge from 15 years ago in graphic processing power. That and they are starting to hit some fundamental limits on cpu shrinks and the like (IE you can not go smaller than the atoms themselves etc.) There is a very real reason why Intel / AMD are drifting towards the multicore and pipelining tricks because the raw CPU isn't gaining quite as fast as it used to.

You also are ignoring software growth. In 10 years when those machines are smartphones, CAD will very likely will have grown to need the equivalent computer of that day.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:56 AM   #22
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You're thinking computers. The GPU's in iPads still get whooped by my S3Virge from 15 years ago in graphic processing power. That and they are starting to hit some fundamental limits on cpu shrinks and the like (IE you can not go smaller than the atoms themselves etc.) There is a very real reason why Intel / AMD are drifting towards the multicore and pipelining tricks because the raw CPU isn't gaining quite as fast as it used to.

You also are ignoring software growth. In 10 years when those machines are smartphones, CAD will very likely will have grown to need the equivalent computer of that day.
As the only person here who actually knows anything about ViRGEs...

The iPad GPU is (by my back of the envelope calculations) some 25 times more powerful than a ViRGE, not to mention capable of many more features. SGX543MP4 is less than a decade behind desktop GPUs in performance, the specific details being dependent on the nature of the renderer.

You are right though that CAD requirements aren't going to stop going up any time soon. A tablet could do CAD, but only as it was practiced in 2002.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:22 AM   #23
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Nor can you open the start menu :-P
People keep saying this. Opening the start menu is a means to an end it is not an end. Nobody opens the start menu because they want to open the start menu, they open it because they are trying to do something. Whatever that something is is still doable and often takes less steps now to do.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:34 AM   #24
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As the only person here who actually knows anything about ViRGEs...

The iPad GPU is (by my back of the envelope calculations) some 25 times more powerful than a ViRGE, not to mention capable of many more features. SGX543MP4 is less than a decade behind desktop GPUs in performance, the specific details being dependent on the nature of the renderer.

You are right though that CAD requirements aren't going to stop going up any time soon. A tablet could do CAD, but only as it was practiced in 2002.
Point taken.

I just get annoyed at the border line religiousness some people take on this tablet thing. Right tool to do the job is more important.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:20 AM   #25
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Sorry to derail the thread, VIRGE, but did you work at the company which used to make those graphic cards? Fascinating...

I would also like to point this story out, for those who haven't seen it yet: http://www.extremetech.com/computing...tu-for-android
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