Delidded my i7-3770K, loaded temperatures drop by 20°C at 4.7GHz

[BonzaiDuck]

Originally Posted by WhoBeDaPlaya

Admit it, Intel could just solder the die to the IHS, release it as the 3870K and we'd wet ourselves

Well, it's interesting that our attentions focused on "cooling solutions" during the last decade, with Rube Goldberg contraptions, water-cooling, lapping, TIMs and other aspects. All that time, each generation of processors would first appear as "toaster-ovens," and then Intel would find a way to reduce the TDP. Now, we're at 77W -- close to the 65W level of earlier processors barely half as powerful.

On the surface (this is a pun), you would think we wouldn't be revisiting this old problem.

But with the die-shrinks and possible implications that would lead Intel to jettison their fluxless solder, here we are again.

We were never a major consideration in their customer base. Most people are just happy as pigs in s*** that their dual and quad cores can almost reach 4 Ghz. And it's been said over and over. My fingers are just taking their morning exercise, so . . .

[dqniel]

Originally Posted by dma0991

Would shaving off temps in the double digit with solder = more money in Intel's coffers?

I think it would with the K series because enthusiasts/overclockers buy them. With everything else? Probably not.

[dma0991]

Originally Posted by dqniel

I think it would with the K series because enthusiasts/overclockers buy them. With everything else? Probably not.

Exactly, that was my point. Intel caters to the bigger crowd, which happens to be mainstream users who don't overclock or don't know how to overclock.

[dqniel]

So then they should use the soldering method for their K series...

[BonzaiDuck]

Originally Posted by dqniel

So then they should use the soldering method for their K series...

Well, remember -- there's a widely held opinion that they had reason to depart from that practice. I think I saw a white paper posted at the Intel web-site about "thermal cycling." Someone else could offer more concrete adjustments to the sense of risk we have about metal-based TIM concoctions.

For the diamond paste, I can only speculate as to why they didn't use it. But I don't think there are any significant issues, unless we actually see them develop on this thread. "Does it provide the same levels of thermal efficiency over time?" We'll certainly discover that, if we've already seen degraded performance with other formulations.

Maybe it had been an issue of cost, because they certainly would've known of the better TIMs by now. Ultimately, they would see that we get almost the same overclocks as Sandy Bridge, but at higher temperatures. Beyond those limits, maybe they don't care. Not on this round and chip generation, anyway. And figure they aren't all that eager that more and more people fiddle with BIOS voltage settings. Does it cost them anything more to produce a "K" chip over the locked-multiplier equivalent?

[ehume]

Especially with the new CPU being so small. Without solder to truly spread the heat to an integrated heat spreader, calling it an IHS is a misnomer, maybe even a lie. All it is is a cover.

[dqniel]

Originally Posted by dqniel

Under Prime load:

4.5Ghz - 1.216v
4.6Ghz - 1.264v
4.7Ghz - 1.312v

SuperPi runs:

4.8Ghz - 1.312v
4.9Ghz - 1.352v

*updated*

Updated now that I have push/pull configuration on the ZT-10D now. Delidded 3570K w/ IC Diamond between die and IHS, then Arctic Silver Ceramique between the IHS and ZT-10D. Hopefully will be trying CL Liquid Pro on all surfaces soon.

I run into a throttling issue when running Prime at 4.7Ghz small FFT after about 5 minutes. I'm not sure why, as all temps are below 83c in Realtemp. I've messed around with current/wattage limits in BIOS, disabling thermal throttling in BIOS, etc. Is it possible that it's from something on the motherboard, rather than the CPU, being too high, such as the VRM?

[pwoz]

Originally Posted by pwoz

I delidded mine on 8/12/12, posted in a thread on Hardocp. Used IC diamond under the IHS.

Temps are the same 2 weeks later after testing. Not long enough to make any conlcusion, but I'll update again in a couple more weeks to see how it is doing.

3 weeks in temps are back to pre-mod level with IC diamond. Hopefully they stop there and I don't have to reapply like Ferzerp, but it's not looking good.

[ehume]

Originally Posted by pwoz

3 weeks in temps are back to pre-mod level with IC diamond. Hopefully they stop there and I don't have to reapply like Ferzerp, but it's not looking good.

I wonder if anyone has tried this with the IHS walls trimmed away? It seems to me that a fixed height of the IHS and thermal cycling would explain this.

[BonzaiDuck]

Originally Posted by ehume

I wonder if anyone has tried this with the IHS walls trimmed away? It seems to me that a fixed height of the IHS and thermal cycling would explain this.

Originally Posted by pwoz

3 weeks in temps are back to pre-mod level with IC diamond. Hopefully they stop there and I don't have to reapply like Ferzerp, but it's not looking good.

If the gap between the IHS and die were close enough, it's hard for me to imagine that there is any "pumping out." I can't say. The ICD is very thick stuff. With an ample application, you'd think the paste would "stay put."

I also had this crazy idea that -- with enough ICD -- you could simply pack the inside of the IHS with it -- enough so that a small bead would squeeze out the bottom of the IHS.

In any case, let's hope this is "fixable" with IC Diamond.

[Yuriman]

Which TIM should I use for between the die and the IHS, and which for the IHS-> heatsink if I'm concerned about longevity? I'm not keen on the idea of having to reapply every few weeks. Has anyone had any longevity issues with liquid metal pro, or will it last a really long time? I currently have a tube of HeGrease Extreme which was reviewed pretty well by a few sites but I realize some of these other pastes are probably significantly better.

[Ferzerp]

Originally Posted by ehume

I wonder if anyone has tried this with the IHS walls trimmed away? It seems to me that a fixed height of the IHS and thermal cycling would explain this.

After all the work I've done, the IHS doesn't sit on the PCB, it sits down on to the die.

[eelw]

Would anyone be willing to leave it for longer than 2-3 weeks instead of reapplying to see if it will degrade even more?

[dqniel]

I will if I don't get Liquid Pro/Ultra before that time. I'll do a Prime Blend for 30 minutes at a known frequency and voltage today and post the maximum temperature results, and then I'll come back to it two Mondays from now (and maybe three, then four, etc.) and do the same thing if I don't upgrade to the liquid metal TIM before then.

[BonzaiDuck]

Originally Posted by dqniel

I will if I don't get Liquid Pro/Ultra before that time. I'll do a Prime Blend for 30 minutes at a known frequency and voltage today and post the maximum temperature results, and then I'll come back to it two Mondays from now (and maybe three, then four, etc.) and do the same thing if I don't upgrade to the liquid metal TIM before then.

Last I saw . . . you were using the IC Diamond? I can't recall what FerZerp was using.

Originally Posted by Yuriman

Which TIM should I use for between the die and the IHS, and which for the IHS-> heatsink if I'm concerned about longevity? I'm not keen on the idea of having to reapply every few weeks. Has anyone had any longevity issues with liquid metal pro, or will it last a really long time? I currently have a tube of HeGrease Extreme which was reviewed pretty well by a few sites but I realize some of these other pastes are probably significantly better.

Yuriman: Reapplying a TIM between the IHS and the CPU die every few weeks is a totally unacceptable state of affairs. We're trying to find a solution that is permanent, and there is nothing certain yet. The two best possibilities are the diamond paste and the liquid metal or metal-pad products, and some people are starting to test them.

Proving that replacement of the Intel TIM significantly reduces temperatures is one thing; finding a permanent replacement with no risk to the die or degradation in cooling -- that's another.

The issue about longevity has two aspects: Are you going to remove and reinstall the IHS again and again? And will a TIM result in some problem that can hurt the die? We want neither.

[dqniel]

Originally Posted by BonzaiDuck

Last I saw . . . you were using the IC Diamond? I can't recall what FerZerp was using.

Yes, I am using IC Diamond. I just sent an email to Xoxide letting them know the testing that I'm doing in the hope that I can get some Liquid Pro and/or Liquid Ultra and post results using those. I figure if they are gracious enough to send it to me for free or at least give me some free shipping then I'll have results for everybody to see, and possible customers to send their way. Never hurts to ask, I guess?

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Originally Posted by dqniel

Yes, I am using IC Diamond. I just sent an email to Xoxide letting them know the testing that I'm doing in the hope that I can get some Liquid Pro and/or Liquid Ultra and post results using those. I figure if they are gracious enough to send it to me for free or at least give me some free shipping then I'll have results for everybody to see, and possible customers to send their way. Never hurts to ask, I guess?

Definitely doesn't. I asked Arctic Silver way back in the day, and they ended up sending me 50 tubes of AS to use for our HSF testing

[Ferzerp]

I've had the issue with both AS5 and NT-H1.

[dqniel]

Thermal Cycling/TIM Failure Test

System Info:

3570K Delidded with IC Diamond between the die and IHS
ZT-10D HSF with Arctic Silver Ceramique between the IHS and the HSF
4.5Ghz @ 1.232v (after vdroop)

Delidded and IC Diamond applied 8/29/2012

After one week:
(9/4/2012)

Ambient temp - 25C
3570K max temps after Prime "blend" for 30 minutes - 67C, 76C, 74C, 73C

After three and a half weeks:
(9/22/2012)

Ambient temp - 22C
3570K max temps after Prime "blend" for 30 minutes - 62C, 72C, 71C, 69C

More results to come...

[pwoz]

Originally Posted by eelw

Would anyone be willing to leave it for longer than 2-3 weeks instead of reapplying to see if it will degrade even more?

I'm going to keep mine rolling for now. I'll just post an update every week until it stabilizes or I have to redo it.

[Ferzerp]

Originally Posted by dqniel

Thermal Cycling/TIM Failure Test

System Info:

3570K Delidded with IC Diamond between the die and IHS
ZT-10D HSF with Arctic Silver Ceramique between the IHS and the HSF
4.5Ghz @ 1.232v (after vdroop)

Delidded and IC Diamond applied 8/29/2012

After one week:
(9/4/2012)

Ambient temp - 25C
3570K max temps after Prime "blend" for 30 minutes - 67C, 76C, 74C, 73C

More results to come...

I'm not sure you really need a long term test. When mine has issues, I see it within 5 seconds of starting up IBT even on the default settings. It's not an issue of cooling system heat soak (which long runs will show), but instead is a heat transfer issue, and so is pretty immediate when it happens.

[dqniel]

Originally Posted by Ferzerp

I'm not sure you really need a long term test. When mine has issues, I see it within 5 seconds of starting up IBT even on the default settings. It's not an issue of cooling system heat soak (which long runs will show), but instead is a heat transfer issue, and so is pretty immediate when it happens.

I understand that, but I'm wondering if there is a any "slow degrade" pattern to it if the transfer ability is observed over a long period. I get that once it's reached the "failure" point it will take just moments for the temperatures to spike.

[BonzaiDuck]

Originally Posted by dqniel

I understand that, but I'm wondering if there is a any "slow degrade" pattern to it if the transfer ability is observed over a long period. I get that once it's reached the "failure" point it will take just moments for the temperatures to spike.

For the diamond stuff, you'd think that a month or two would be a good enough profile, with shutdowns, cooling down and cold starts.

Originally Posted by dqniel

Thermal Cycling/TIM Failure Test

System Info:

3570K Delidded with IC Diamond between the die and IHS
ZT-10D HSF with Arctic Silver Ceramique between the IHS and the HSF
4.5Ghz @ 1.232v (after vdroop)

Delidded and IC Diamond applied 8/29/2012

After one week:
(9/4/2012)

Ambient temp - 25C
3570K max temps after Prime "blend" for 30 minutes - 67C, 76C, 74C, 73C

More results to come...

Was it better than that after you first ran it with the IC diamond? These numbers don't look half-bad, and your choice of a heatsink . . well, I searched for a comparison review:

http://www.frostytech.com/articlevie...id=2557&page=5

. I suppose that could be right in a 77F room ambient. You wonder which groupings of two or three are more accurate over a fourth outlier. The sensors are supposed to be accurate within a range, + or -.

Those temperatures are maybe 6 or 7C above my Sandy's at 4.6. But your IB is more heat tolerant, at least relative to the given specs.

Suppose it stabilizes, or remains the same. You might then want to apply some more ICD to the bottom of the IHS to see if it improves to a new stable set. Or so it would be my own inclination, if I were de-lidding an IB like yours. Of course, the cost rises a bit more steeply given the price of the diamond paste.

Eventually we're going to start making sound conclusions about it.

[dqniel]

For that voltage and speed, during the small FFT portion of the test, I'm happy with that maximum temperature range. Frostytech uses an unrealistic (albeit repeatable) method to mimic actual CPUs, and the different heat "profile" (for lack of a better word) of real CPUs can make the heatsinks act quite differently. The heat coming out of a 3570k is coming from a much more confined location than, say, their LGA775 IHS-sized copper interface die.

Anyway, these temperatures are similar to what I got a week ago at similar settings. They're a bit higher, but my ambient temperature was also about 2C lower then.

[BonzaiDuck]

Originally Posted by dqniel

For that voltage and speed, during the small FFT portion of the test, I'm happy with that maximum temperature range. Frostytech uses an unrealistic (albeit repeatable) method to mimic actual CPUs, and the different heat "profile" (for lack of a better word) of real CPUs can make the heatsinks act quite differently. The heat coming out of a 3570k is coming from a much more confined location than, say, their LGA775 IHS-sized copper interface die.

Anyway, these temperatures are similar to what I got a week ago at similar settings. They're a bit higher, but my ambient temperature was also about 2C lower then.

I was trying to say that the rank-ordering of those tests is consistent with other, just as comprehensive tests as the FrostyTech, so you could expect just a little less with your heatsink than with either my D14 or IDontCare's Corsair H100.

At that point, it may be guesswork. But it doesn't seem "out of line." If it remains stable, you could choose to leave it alone and maybe see what happens with the next two higher multipliers, or you could see what happens by adding more TIM.

I can bet that IDontCare is puttering away with his rig right now to see where this goes. If we as "enthusiast" warranty-breakers can't resolve the problem we initially saw before we [some of us] delidded our IB's, I'll feel worse for those who already "popped their caps."

Here's another thought, and I know it may also sound crazy. Before this Ivy Bridge issue ever emerged, I thought I was examining web-pages for "Indigo-Xtreme" as well as the old IC Diamond, and . . . I THOUGHT . . . . I read something about "use in combination with other TIMs." I don't want to raise any hopes, and I'm a firm believer that the simplest choices lead to the best result. I don't think "TIM combinations" fill the bill there, but maybe someone will look into it. Carefully . . . . before actually executing such an approach . . .

No . . . just checking the Indigo product page. That would be absolutely wrong. Maybe it was something I read at IC . . .