Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Hardware and Technology > Video Cards and Graphics

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2013
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-20-2012, 01:01 PM   #1
blackened23
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,556
Default Geforce GTX 680 classified power consumption with overvoltage revealed, shocking.



So once voltage is unleashed on kepler it uses a ton of power.

Now where were all those guys that badmouthed the 7970 for using a lot of power when additional voltage is applied?

Sorry, I just thought this was ironic. I do not care about power consumption at all - I have a 1200W power supply with Dual SLI GPUs. Do not care at all. Perhaps some quad GTX 480 users MAY care though. Just sayin'
blackened23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:10 PM   #2
Smartazz
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,128
Default

Quite a lot of power usage for a small bump in performance, but that's not that out of the ordinary. It's really not a very appealing card compared to the GTX680 lightning.
__________________
i5 2500K@4.6GHz, 16GB G.SKILL 1600MHz, R9 290x, Seasonic X850, X-Fi Fatal1ty, Samsung 830 and 840 with Antec 1200.
Retina MacBook Pro 15", 2.6GHz, 16GB, 512GB SSD
Achieva Shimian, Das Keyboard, Logitech G400 and Razer Scarab.
Smartazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:13 PM   #3
MrMuppet
Senior Member
 
MrMuppet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 474
Default

So what happens when you overvolt the 7970 as well? At stock voltage the 7970 GE (Ghz Edition) draws ~40W more than the GTX 680C overclocked at stock voltage. If you over--volt one, you have to over-volt the other as well, otherwise it's apples and oranges.

Kepler gives much better performance per Watt and generated heat at this point. Only you can determine whether that's important to you.
MrMuppet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:14 PM   #4
blackened23
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMuppet View Post
So what happens when you overvolt the 7970 as well? At stock voltage the 7970 GE (Ghz Edition) draws ~40W more than the GTX 680C overclocked at stock voltage. If you over--volt one, you have to over-volt the other as well, otherwise it's apples and oranges.

Kepler gives much better performance per Watt and generated heat at this point. Only you can determine whether that's important to you.
The 7970GE uses 1.25V at load. Stock voltage for 7970 classic is 1.1V. The 7970GE is in fact overvolted. The overvolted Kepler is topping the charts in power usage, the only thing preventing this with prior overclocks was the voltage lock that nvidia implemented. Once unleashed the kepler appears to use alot of power with more volts.

Last edited by blackened23; 07-20-2012 at 01:21 PM.
blackened23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:15 PM   #5
Subyman
Platinum Member
 
Subyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Southern IL
Posts: 2,059
Default

It just confirms that Nvidia was right by placing power targets on their cards and locking out voltage control this gen. The relatively small gain in performance is not worth the card operating out of its intended power range. It kind of the same story with Ivy, too much voltage simply isn't worth it like it used to be.
__________________
Heat Rating
Main Rig: Corsair 550D Watercooled
4820k | Asus Rampage Gene IV | GSkill 2x8GB | GTX 780
Intel 120GB SSD | Seasonic 660 Plat
Subyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:16 PM   #6
f1sherman
Golden Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,815
Default

GPU that has been
  • overclocked
  • overvolted
  • BIOS switched to "LN2"
  • all power limiting disabled

uses a tad more power than the AMD reference model
f1sherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:20 PM   #7
Lonyo
Lifer
 
Lonyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 21,625
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1sherman View Post
GPU that has been
  • overclocked
  • overvolted
  • BIOS switched to "LN2"
  • all power limiting disabled

uses a tad more power than the AMD reference model
And probably still less than the GTX480 did.
__________________
CPU: Q3570K @ 4.1GHz 1.23v // Mobo: Asus P8Z77-V // GFX: Sapphire Tri-X 290 @ 1000/5200 // RAM: Corsair DDR3 @ 1600MHz 9-9-9-24 // SSD: Samsung 830 128GB
Video cards: TNT2, Ti4400, 9800, 7800GT(+7200GS), HD4850(+HD2400), HD6850, HD7950 (Laptops: GF6150, HD3200, GMA500)
Lonyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:23 PM   #8
MrMuppet
Senior Member
 
MrMuppet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackened23 View Post
The 7970GE uses 1.25V at load. Stock voltage for 7970 classic is 1.1V. The 7970GE is in fact, overvolted.
Did AT overvolt it? If not, it's at stock voltage. The reference voltage is the intended voltage. They're different chips, so it doesn't really matter whether they're at the same voltage in absolute terms. The 7970GE wasn't even overclocked.

edit: Moreover, according to AT the 7970GE uses 1.218V during Boost (not 1.25V).

edit2: Let's cherry-pick, shall we?



Overvolting can even hamper performance.

Last edited by MrMuppet; 07-20-2012 at 01:32 PM.
MrMuppet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:29 PM   #9
DaveSimmons
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 37,125
Default

> Now where were all those guys that badmouthed the 7970 for using a lot of power when additional voltage is applied?

I badmouthed the heat, noise and power of the 7970 at stock vs. stock -- it was slower, hotter, louder, cost +$50 and used +30 watts.

If you OCd the 7970 to try to match the stock 680 then power climbed sharply. It was fair to badmouth that because you needed the OC to make your +$50 card as fast as the 680.

The 7970 GE fixed the speed and cost issues, but only by adding another ~30 watts. It's fair to badmouth the GE for needing almost +60 watts to do its job.

(Edit: I also badmouthed the GTX 580 for its power draw, back before red and green switched sides on the power issue.)

Last edited by DaveSimmons; 07-20-2012 at 01:36 PM.
DaveSimmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:33 PM   #10
blackened23
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,556
Default

Muppet, every 7970GE is overvolted, fact. 7970 is 1.1V, the 7970GE BIOS puts it at 1.25-1.27V. The 7970 classic and 7970GE use the same power at the same voltage.

Secondly, the only reason it hampers performance is because EVGA (unwisely) did not remove OCCP protection and Kepler throttle on the classified card. The Classified will thermal throttle and OCCP throttle at high voltages, which is specific to THAT card. The 680 lightning should not have this issue, because it has a specific BIOS that completely unlocks and removes OCCP protection / thermal throttle. The EVGA has voltage control for 770$ but it still has thermal / OCCP throttle present - which is why (IMHO) the lightning is a better card... With that in consideration, I Theorize that the lightning will perform better with higher voltages.

Please understand I don't care about power consumption - its not like i'm going to put a classified 680 in a laptop and get upset at 3 minutes of battery life. I just found this entire thing ironic considering 7970 and 680 use the same power at the same voltage points, perhaps it puts an old debate in a new light I still enjoy my 680s very much, and I don't care how much power they use.

Last edited by blackened23; 07-20-2012 at 01:38 PM.
blackened23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:36 PM   #11
chimaxi83
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,499
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackened23 View Post
Now where were all those guys that badmouthed the 7970 for using a lot of power when additional voltage is applied?
He's banned currently

I don't have a kill-a-watt or any other meter, but I know that when I'm pumping 1.4-1.5V through my card and it's under a constant 99% load, my 360 mm radiator at the top of my case may as well be a space heater lol. It might almost be as bad as 470 SLI
__________________
Mine: 3770K - MSI Z77 MPower - Gigabyte 290 CF - 16GB Samsung - M4 256GB/Caviar Black 1TB - XFX Core Pro 1050W - NZXT Switch 810 - Auria IPS 27" 2560x1440 - Custom loop
Kiddo: 3770K - MSI Z77A-G43 - 7870 Tahiti LE - 8GB Samsung - M4 64GB/Caviar Black 1TB - Antec Neo Eco 620W - HAF 922
chimaxi83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:40 PM   #12
MrMuppet
Senior Member
 
MrMuppet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackened23 View Post
Muppet, every 7970GE is overvolted, fact. 7970 is 1.1V, the 7970GE BIOS puts it at 1.25-1.27V. The 7970 classic and 7970GE use the same power at the same voltage.
You're contradicting yourself. If the 7970GE stock BIOS puts it at a certain voltage, then it's shipped with that voltage stock. Fact. It doesn't matter if a 7950 or a hypothetical 7930 is shipped with a lower voltage.

A chip must be shipped with a certain voltage. Higher voltages = higher power consumption and heat output which has to be dealt with, but allow for higher clocks as long as temperatures are maintained. Depending on what's needed to compete (at the time of release) a low or high stock voltage may be chosen. Overvolting happens when you exceed the reference design. 7970GE is a new reference design.
MrMuppet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:41 PM   #13
blackened23
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMuppet View Post
You're contradicting yourself. If the 7970GE BIOS puts it at a certain voltage, then it's shipped with that voltage stock. Fact.

A chip must be shipped with a certain voltage. Higher voltages = higher power consumption and heat output which has to be dealt with, but allow for higher clocks as long as temperatures are maintained. Depending on what's needed to compete (at the time of release) a low or high stock voltage may be chosen. Overvolting happens when you exceed the reference design. 7970GE is a new reference design.
Isn't the 7970GE is simply an overclocked 7970
blackened23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:44 PM   #14
MrMuppet
Senior Member
 
MrMuppet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackened23 View Post
Isn't the 7970GE is simply an overclocked 7970
And the 7970 is a fully unlocked and overclocked 7950. It's all relative and depends on perspective. But neither card is over-volted if it's running at its reference voltage, just because other reference designs exist. It's not that difficult, really.
MrMuppet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:47 PM   #15
f1sherman
Golden Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,815
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackened23 View Post
Please understand I don't care about power consumption - its not like i'm going to put a classified 680 in a laptop and get upset at 3 minutes of battery life. I just found this entire thing ironic considering 7970 and 680 use the same power at the same voltage points

Nvidia GPUs use lover voltage (higher current) than competing AMD GPUs.

Comparing the two at same voltage is not much telling of their respective power envelope.
f1sherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:49 PM   #16
JAG87
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,581
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subyman View Post
It just confirms that Nvidia was right by placing power targets on their cards and locking out voltage control this gen. The relatively small gain in performance is not worth the card operating out of its intended power range. It kind of the same story with Ivy, too much voltage simply isn't worth it like it used to be.
It has never been. Anytime you push more than +5% over stock voltage on any piece of silicon, perf/w goes right out the window.
JAG87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:52 PM   #17
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 14,324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMuppet View Post
You're contradicting yourself. If the 7970GE stock BIOS puts it at a certain voltage, then it's shipped with that voltage stock. Fact. It doesn't matter if a 7950 or a hypothetical 7930 is shipped with a lower voltage.
Ya, it does matter. Everyone knows HD7970 GE bios + reference HD7970 blower = junk. The GE BIOS may run at 1.212V on average but it peaks at 1.256V which is completely overkill for 1050mhz GPU clocks. You can buy the original HD7970 today and overclock it to 1150mhz on stock voltage of 1.175V and come nowhere near the power consumption of that 7970 GE card. My 7970's power consumption grows 43W just going from 1.175V to 1.256V and not moving the overclock even 1mhz. What's the point of pumping 1.212-1.25V into a card for no reason?

Also, let's not cherry-pick 1 game (Shogun 2). Based on many games, we already know that HD7970 1165GPU trades blows with a GTX680 1212 (1290 GPU Boost Effective) from Xbitlabs. Taking a step further, a 1200mhz HD7970 beats the fastest factory preoverclocked + OCed further GTX680 in the world from KitGuru in 7 out of 11 games. What about the guys running MSI Lighting HD7970 $519 with 1.28-1.3ghz clocks?

Pretty much unless all you do is benchmark 3dMark11/UnigineHeaven or play BF3 MP, then HD7970 @ 1250mhz or faster beats any voltage locked GTX680 in most games, especially at 2560x1600. So what are you paying $660 ($740 w/ EVbot) for? It's not the fastest, nor the quietest nor the most well-built single-GPU card today.....

Sorry, but a $660 card with a blower fan and no voltage control wouldn't even be able to convincingly beat a quieter after-market HD7970+OC with a 1.15ghz overclock+ for $440. That's a joke. With EVBot it's $740 or just $260 away from the GTX690. At least the GTX690 is quiet, very power efficient and is ready to go for next generation games. This card costs $150+ over something like a Giga 680 for marketing.

Compared to the MSI Lightning 680 or the Sapphire Toxic HD7970 6GB, the amount of effort EVGA put into this card is laughable. They are charging $660 but it's not even the fastest factory preoverclocked 680.
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1

Last edited by RussianSensation; 07-20-2012 at 02:01 PM.
RussianSensation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:54 PM   #18
f1sherman
Golden Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,815
Default

where is that formula for 65nm node now

power^3 being linear with applied voltage if I remember correctly
f1sherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:55 PM   #19
chimaxi83
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,499
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1sherman View Post
Nvidia GPUs use lover voltage (higher current) than competing AMD GPUs.

Comparing the two at same voltage is not much telling of their respective power envelope.
Not really. If you measure voltage on a 680 with a multimeter, you will see that it's actually using 1.215 V at load, not the 1.175 V that the software reports. I've seen this across 4 680's, Gigabyte reference and Windforce, a Lightning, and a DC II.
__________________
Mine: 3770K - MSI Z77 MPower - Gigabyte 290 CF - 16GB Samsung - M4 256GB/Caviar Black 1TB - XFX Core Pro 1050W - NZXT Switch 810 - Auria IPS 27" 2560x1440 - Custom loop
Kiddo: 3770K - MSI Z77A-G43 - 7870 Tahiti LE - 8GB Samsung - M4 64GB/Caviar Black 1TB - Antec Neo Eco 620W - HAF 922
chimaxi83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:55 PM   #20
Concillian
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dublin, CA
Posts: 3,653
Default

So what you're saying is that when you add voltage and increase the clock speed, a GPU power usage increases exponentially.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

This is not an AMD vs. nVidia thing. This is physics.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:58 PM   #21
blackened23
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianSensation View Post
Compared to the MSI Lightning 680 or the Sapphire Toxic HD7970 6GB, the amount of effort EVGA put into this card is laughable. It's not even the fastest factory preoverclocked 680.

I like EVGA but I have to agree here regarding the lightning. MSI took additional steps to prevent Thermal throttle and OCCP protection, apparently EVGA did not do this on the classified which is puzzling to say the least. I'd love to see AT do a review on it [680 lightning] once the next afterburner is released (2.2.3 is adding support for the lightning , but it is not out yet)

The 680 lightning is also pretty darn sexy (in terms of aesthetics) if I do say so myself.

Last edited by blackened23; 07-20-2012 at 02:17 PM.
blackened23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 01:59 PM   #22
MrMuppet
Senior Member
 
MrMuppet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianSensation View Post
Ya, it does matter...
Yet you fail to provide a single counter-argument? You're just saying you think the 7970 Ghz stock voltage is too high for your taste, not that it was over-volted by AT. You're free to under-volt it btw (unless GE vgpu is locked).

I never argued the 7970GE stock voltage was optimal, only that it indeed was run at the stock voltage (as intended and designed by reference) and thus should be compared with other offerings at stock voltages (as intended and designed by reference). Overclocks should be compared with other overclocks. And optimal overclocks at optimal voltages with other optimal overclocks at optimal voltages.

The data required for proper comparisons is missing in that chart
MrMuppet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 02:10 PM   #23
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 14,324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMuppet View Post
Yet you fail to provide a single counter-argument? You're just saying you think the 7970 Ghz stock voltage is too high for your taste, not that it was over-volted by AT. You're free to under-volt it btw (unless GE vgpu is locked).
For starters, the reason I have no idea why you are even talking about HD7970 GE voltage since you can't buy such cards on the market. I just told you that you can buy a normal 7970 with 1.175V such as Sapphire Dual-X, HIS ICE-Q or Gigabyte Windforce and manually overclock it to 1050mhz of GE. The GE is a poor offering from AMD and on top of that they plan to charge $50 for the BIOS (since you can flash a 7970 with it if you want for free).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMuppet View Post
Overclocks should be compared with other overclocks.
Already linked 2 such reviews. GTX680 can't win. Also, why are you ignoring the fact that you can get a stock 7970 for $450 with a great cooler that will match or beat this $660 card? How can you can justify paying $210 more for a card that's not any faster or quieter?

Compared to the MSI Lighting 680, this card is worse in every way imaginable other than 4GB of VRAM that comes into play at 2560x1600, where ironically the 7970 is the better card anyway.

Unless you can get this card to overclock to 1.4ghz, you are paying extra $ for EVGA customer service vs. the 680 Lightning (better components and better cooler).

Also, I can't see how any enthusiast would care over 40-50W of power consumption and then go out and get a GTX680 and overvolt it on his overclocked Sandy/IVB system that itself probably draws 50-70W more than a stock CPU would. Who spends $660+ on a GPU and cares about 40-50W of extra power as justification not to get a $450 HD7970 that's just as fast?

And really at $660, this can't beat any of the other good 680 cards (Zotac AMP!, Galaxy KFA, MSI Lightning, Asus DirectCUII), but to enable voltage unlock, it costs ~$740. That's ~$300 over an after-market HD7970 that has stock voltage control. EVGA can't be serious, right?
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1

Last edited by RussianSensation; 07-20-2012 at 02:15 PM.
RussianSensation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 02:20 PM   #24
RussianSensation
Elite Member
 
RussianSensation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 14,324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackened23 View Post
The 680 lightning is also pretty darn sexy (in terms of aesthetics) if I do say so myself.
When I bought NV cards, I pretty much only bought EVGA. At one point I bought 3x EVGA GTX470s but never fell in love with them like Balla. Based on their new warranty change and this price gouging over other premium brands, I won't touch any of their cards compared to Giga/Asus/Galaxy/MSI unless they actually bring something to the table. Otherwise it just feels like paying a premium for the brand alone.
__________________
i5 2500k | Asus P8P67 Rev.3 | Sapphire Dual-X HD7970 1150/1800 1.174V CFX | G.Skill Sniper 8GB DDR3-1600 1.5V
SeaSonic Platinum 1000W | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB + HITACHI 7K1000.B 1TB | Windows 7
Westinghouse 37" 1080P | X-Fi Platinum | Logitech Z5300E 5.1

Last edited by RussianSensation; 07-20-2012 at 02:24 PM.
RussianSensation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 02:23 PM   #25
cmdrdredd
Lifer
 
cmdrdredd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 19,524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackened23 View Post
I like EVGA but I have to agree here regarding the lightning. MSI took additional steps to prevent Thermal throttle and OCCP protection, apparently EVGA did not do this on the classified which is puzzling to say the least. I'd love to see AT do a review on it [680 lightning] once the next afterburner is released (2.2.3 is adding support for the lightning , but it is not out yet)

The 680 lightning is also pretty darn sexy (in terms of aesthetics) if I do say so myself.
For the record unwinder has never said that he can enable voltage control yet.

This power consumption thing really doesn't matter because people willing to do vo ltage adjustment know that they will draw more power.
__________________
Asus Maximus V Gene | 3570k @ 4.5 | 8GB Samsung 30nm @ 2133 | EVGA GTX 670 FTW SLI @ 1230/6765
2x 128GB Crucial M4 SSD | WD 300GB Velociraptor | Lite-On HBS212 BD-R | Corsair HX1000 PSU
Cooler Master HAF 932 | Yamakasi Catleap Q270 | Windows 8.1 Pro
cmdrdredd is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.