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Old 07-14-2012, 04:30 AM   #26
Arkadrel
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So a 299$ part to compete in performance with the 7870.
The 580 is about ~5% faster than the 1ghz 7870's, and a full 670 is about ~25% faster than a 580.

Throw in going from 256bit bus -> 192bit bus (25% drop), and ~10% lower clock rates....
this card ends up what? 5-10% faster than a 580 or so?

decent, just kinda late compaired to how long the 7870's been out (even if its say 10% faster).
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:21 AM   #27
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The default cooler is whats on many cards, asus, gigabyte, msi, sapphire, powercolor etc. Hard to find complete reference AMD designs on these cards and the price of these "custom referenced" cards are ~250.
Looks like only a few cards have that default cooler you're talking about.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...on%20HD%207850
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:54 AM   #28
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It just means NV has more crap bins on TSMC's production than they are expecting
No it does not. Nvidia is manufacturing more GK104's than AMD is Tahiti's. This is all but a fact based on 1)It was Nvidia's only 28nm desktop GPU until very recently, 2) it's Nvidia's only 28nm desktop GPU that is aimed at gamers 3) the steam survey shows steam's members that own gtx680's outpacing hd7970 users by 3:2. 4)ALSO, ALSO, Nvidia doesn't have any new parts competing with the hd7870 and hd7850, so until they have a product designed to compete in that market, they have to make one in the interim. When there are more GK104 chips being made (than Tahiti), there is naturally going to be more throw-away's. No one brought up how craptastic yields must be when AMD brought the hd5830 to the market, so don't start spouting idiotic flawed-filled logic now. Especially when it will have been 4 1/2 to 5 months since GK104's introduction to the market by the time a third derivative of it comes out.

AMD doesn't currently have room to bring a third Tahiti part to the market - there just isn't a big enough gap between the hd7870 and hd7950. When AMD introduces the hd7950GE, and then comes out with an hd7930, are you going to say their yields must be crappy? No, you won't.

GK104 yields are fine.

Last edited by tviceman; 07-14-2012 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 07-14-2012, 09:59 AM   #29
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The rumours before AMD release anything was for third tier cards at all levels.

So far they haven't materialised.

The main point is that usually third tier cut down cards are limited run products, as I mentioned earlier, and since both companies have done it in the past, it wouldn't be that surprising to see either company do it, and it doesn't reflect bad yields. I think we can safely say the yields for the GTX580 were better than for the 480, and they still (eventually) made a third level cut down card, to match how cut down the 470 was, but it came very late in the life and was limited run.

Having a third level cut down product doesn't reflect bad yields unless it comes at launch (e.g. GTX470, which was a third level cut down product, only there was no top product because of issues).
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:06 AM   #30
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snip
You don't quote steam surveys as an indication of TSMC production or yields, you know its flawed beyond justification for many reasons, but namely: Bitminers. They aren't going to use NV and they aren't likely to have steam games clogging their coin farms.

Also hows this for logic..

You have the same core, it costs the same to make (not even factoring in limited production capability).

You can sell it for $500, or you can sell it for $250.

Would you deliberately turn your $500 potential product into large quantities of $250 unless you HAD to? ie. They are binned as crap and thus its better to salvage crap and get something rather than nothing.
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:14 AM   #31
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Let's dispel some confusion, shall we?

AMD/Nvidia/Intel etc. fuses/software locks execution units for two reasons: to keep costs low and to get use out of defective dies. Now the prefect world scenario would be a different design for each product, because you simply could get more of them on a wafer, not to mention design specific tweaks. In reality R&D and masks cost money and defects are a thing, so locking units is a pretty viable thing.

For Nvidia to use GK104 for their whole desktop lineup >150$ one of three
two thing has to be true. Either GK106 can't compete or they're getting or at one point got very bad yields.

As for why this is bad instead of good, as some of you think, the first problem is that they're getting less out of an already constrained wafer supply. They can make less GK104s then they can GK106s, and when the end product should cost about the same, it's pretty simple to figure out what that means. What's more, those 660ti(300$) use up GK104 dies that could've been 670(400$) or 680(500$) and if all their 660ti really are salvaged, that wouldn't exactly show a pretty picture for how good their yields are.
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:30 AM   #32
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the steam survey shows steam's members that own gtx680's outpacing hd7970 users by 3:2.
I'll skip the part why Steam survey is far from anything you could call hard data, and go right for an appeal to logic.

The Steam survey also shows that both the 4850 and 570 outpace the 5850, the later by almost double. It also shows the 680 beating both the 7850 and the 7870 TOGETHER. If this doesn't convince you(not you as in tviceman, you as ther reader) that the survey isn't really something you should base your arguments on, then I guess nothing will get through the cognitive disonance.
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Old 07-14-2012, 12:06 PM   #33
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It more than 50-60%, I don't think it's a bad upgrade.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/512?vs=548

OC that bad boy another 200Mhz and it should be close to twice as fast.
54% average at 1920 in this review. http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/A...D_7870/26.html

and the 5850 could overclock too you know.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:05 PM   #34
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The 6$$ series. One chip fits all.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #35
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I have been waiting to buy a $200-250 part for ages and it just seems like it's not coming together. Considered the 7850 but it seemed too weak and NVIDIA looked to be dominating the high-end with the 680, so waited for the 660. Now it might be pretty gimped too? When should I take the plunge on a low $200s card? 28 nm and 2 GB memory are requirements.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:50 PM   #36
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I have been waiting to buy a $200-250 part for ages and it just seems like it's not coming together. Considered the 7850 but it seemed too weak and NVIDIA looked to be dominating the high-end with the 680, so waited for the 660. Now it might be pretty gimped too?
Do you see now the genius behind naming the card GTX 560 Ti, and not GTX 565, or 560 Ti 448, and not 570SE
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:18 PM   #37
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I have been waiting to buy a $200-250 part for ages and it just seems like it's not coming together. Considered the 7850 but it seemed too weak and NVIDIA looked to be dominating the high-end with the 680, so waited for the 660. Now it might be pretty gimped too? When should I take the plunge on a low $200s card? 28 nm and 2 GB memory are requirements.
The next best thing is always around the corner. If you need more power now, the 7850 is amazing value once overclocked. If you can wait, then the 660ti will probably be nice and the 8800 series won't be far off either.

Last edited by Arzachel; 07-14-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:31 PM   #38
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The next best thing is always around the corner. If you need more power now, the 7850 is amazing value once overclocked. If you can wait, then the 660ti will probably be nice and the 8800 series won't be far off either.
What current card will the 660ti compare to and how much will it cost? I've read so many articles about it yet they all seem to contradict each other. For example, the link that the OP gave us says it'll only be around a 8%-10% decrease of the GTX 670 but it only costs $300? Is this weird or is it normal to pay $100 for 10%? Also, will the 8800 series be the equivalent to the current 7800 series and when will the 8800 series come out? Sorry for so many questions, just want to get these things clear.

Last edited by aayjaay; 07-14-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:49 PM   #39
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I'll skip the part why Steam survey is far from anything you could call hard data, and go right for an appeal to logic.

The Steam survey also shows that both the 4850 and 570 outpace the 5850, the later by almost double. It also shows the 680 beating both the 7850 and the 7870 TOGETHER. If this doesn't convince you(not you as in tviceman, you as ther reader) that the survey isn't really something you should base your arguments on, then I guess nothing will get through the cognitive disonance.
AMD cited Steam Survey in it's own PR pieces.
http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases...2010sep15.aspx
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Steam users can now detect and install the latest ATI Catalyst driver for their ATI Radeon™ graphics card directly from within Steam. Valve’s most recent Steam Hardware Survey shows that fully 87 percent of DirectX® 11 gamers are enjoying ATI Radeon or ATI Mobility Radeon™ hardware
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:09 PM   #40
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AMD cited Steam Survey in it's own PR pieces.
http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases...2010sep15.aspx
Steam numbers are only valid one way. You should know that
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:14 PM   #41
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Steam numbers are only valid one way. You should know that
Marketing 101.
Numbers are always valid when they show the party using them in a positive light.
Hence why AMD were happy to use them to say "look, we have massive DX11 marketshare".
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:53 PM   #42
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You don't quote steam surveys as an indication of TSMC production or yields, you know its flawed beyond justification for many reasons, but namely: Bitminers. They aren't going to use NV and they aren't likely to have steam games clogging their coin farms.

Also hows this for logic..

You have the same core, it costs the same to make (not even factoring in limited production capability).

You can sell it for $500, or you can sell it for $250.

Would you deliberately turn your $500 potential product into large quantities of $250 unless you HAD to? ie. They are binned as crap and thus its better to salvage crap and get something rather than nothing.
The difference between your response and mine is that I backed up my sound reasoning with facts and real world examples, whereas you first spouted unsubstantiated FUD from the hip, and then fixated on one of the many points I brought up.

The situation speaks for itself: GK104 is outselling Tahiti, and thus has more chips being manufactured. There is likely enough of a performance delta between gk104 and gk106 to have 3 sku's and nearly five months later enough throw away chips to launch a product. As I already pointed out, AMD didn't hesitate to get the hd5830 out, and I sure as hell don't remember anyone crying crap yields. Had AMD actually demonstrated intelligence, they would have brought the original hd7970 out at GHz edition speeds, so there would have been enough discrepancy between Tahiti and pitcairn for and hd7930.

Last edited by tviceman; 07-14-2012 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:35 AM   #43
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AMD cited Steam Survey in it's own PR pieces.
http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases...2010sep15.aspx
I expect more credibility from a random forum poster than from AMD PR because that's a pretty low bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by tviceman View Post
The difference between your response and mine is that I backed up my sound reasoning with facts and real world examples, whereas you first spouted unsubstantiated FUD from the hip, and then fixated on one of the many points I brought up.
No, your post was pretty light on actual facts, and the few that it had(Steam survey results) had little connection to the point you were trying to prove. And now you're resorting to attacking the person instead of refuting his points. Lovely.

Edit:Comments in bold
Quote:
The situation speaks for itself: GK104 is outselling Tahiti(An actual source that supports this conclusion?), and thus has more chips being manufactured(Holy jumping to conclusions batman). There is likely enough of a performance delta between gk104 and gk106 to have 3 sku's and nearly five months later enough throw away chips to launch a product(None argues that. The question was, do you think that Nvidia isn't losing out by having to use GK104 to compete with Pitcarn instead of GK106). As I already pointed out, AMD didn't hesitate to get the hd5830 out, and I sure as hell don't remember anyone crying crap yields(AMD didn't use the 5830 to fill a glaring gap in their lineup, it was a defective die sink and little else. The 660ti is going to be Nvidia's bread and butter gaming card that sees far bigger sales than the 670 or 680. That means that either Nvidia has a huge stockpile of defective dies, their yields are horrid or they're willing to take the hit by fusing of working execution units). Had AMD actually demonstrated intelligence, they would have brought the original hd7970 out at GHz edition speeds(That would mean postponing the release date. I agree with you on this though.), so there would have been enough discrepancy between Tahiti and pitcairn for and hd7930.

Last edited by Arzachel; 07-15-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:40 AM   #44
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What current card will the 660ti compare to and how much will it cost? I've read so many articles about it yet they all seem to contradict each other. For example, the link that the OP gave us says it'll only be around a 8%-10% decrease of the GTX 670 but it only costs $300? Is this weird or is it normal to pay $100 for 10%? Also, will the 8800 series be the equivalent to the current 7800 series and when will the 8800 series come out? Sorry for so many questions, just want to get these things clear.
Between the 7870 and the 670 is my guess, but it doesn't matter one bit. If it's great, get it, if not it's still going to bring down the prices on other cards.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:59 AM   #45
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AMD cited Steam Survey in it's own PR pieces.
http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases...2010sep15.aspx

well I'll be damned...
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:24 PM   #46
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Between the 7870 and the 670 is my guess, but it doesn't matter one bit. If it's great, get it, if not it's still going to bring down the prices on other cards.
It's probably going to cost way more than the equivalent to $300 (has the official price of it been revealed?) in the UK though. For example, right now, a 7870 costs $300 but in England, it costs around £250 which is ~$400
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:51 PM   #47
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It's probably going to cost way more than the equivalent to $300 (has the official price of it been revealed?) in the UK though. For example, right now, a 7870 costs $300 but in England, it costs around £250 which is ~$400
You're not the only one getting shafted on hardware prices, they're pretty insane here in the Baltics.
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Old 07-15-2012, 03:22 PM   #48
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So there's already no reason to get a GTX 680, now there will be no reason to get a GTX 670 either. Win for consumers @ $300.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:14 PM   #49
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i think from the specs this gtx660, if truly the real specs, will not be that much weaker than the 670. overclocked it will probably match the 670 or be darn close to it.


On another note, if the gk104 wasnt outselling AMDs competing chips you would not see all the action we have. New ghz 7970 and AMD dropping prices so very low that there are threads popping up asking, "why are nvidia cards so high? I dont get it? how can they sell their cards at higher prices?"
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:32 PM   #50
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If it was close to a 670 though, I don't get how they'd be able to sell it for only $300 though?
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