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Old 07-07-2012, 01:02 AM   #51
cmdrdredd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfear View Post
Bitcoin is worth mentioning though. After expenses my card makes me ~$2/day at current prices. So someone mining since Tahiti launched would have paid only $220-350 for their 7970. How's that for performance/dollar?
Maybe it's me but if I cannot afford $400 for a video card I should not ever be even close to looking at a $400 card. So trying to say "oh I can pay for it through bitcoin mining" is a little weird. Especially since your power bill isn't free and the 7970/7950 are power hogs compared to their Nvidia counterparts.

For me, everything is about performance in games. If I wanted my PC to make money I'd be doing Photoshop and Illustrator all day, which I do at work. Then you wouldn't need these DX11 cards.

I don't know if I'm way out in left field here, but wouldn't most people be interested in any of these cards specifically for playing games with in the first place?
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:26 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
Especially since your power bill isn't free and the 7970/7950 are power hogs compared to their Nvidia counterparts.
This is simply not true btw, max load is very very different scenario in average or peak load in gaming.

I've been reading a few techpowerup and other reviews and the gaming load is very close between the cards. However, max load is hugely different as 680s don't exceed their 225W limit while 7970 goes crazy nearly to 300W.

The problem is gaming load != max load.

anyway i will know soon when my PCS+ 7950 comes in, running both cpu and gpu with big OC.. on a 450W PSU.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:58 AM   #53
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running both cpu and gpu with big OC.. on a 450W PSU.
You crazy! . Do you have a wattmeter?
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:29 AM   #54
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I was inspired by guys on the [H] forum, some dudes run a 2600K + gtx580 on the same 450W PSU.. guess Silverstone makes good stuff!

The new mITX MBs (Asus and Asrock) are heaps better at OC too, IvB in a tiny shoe size rig going at 4.5ghz+, water cooled and driving a gtx680/79xx.. heck yes, so much power condensed into so little space, there's something inherently sexy about that.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:36 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Silverforce11 View Post
This is simply not true btw, max load is very very different scenario in average or peak load in gaming.

I've been reading a few techpowerup and other reviews and the gaming load is very close between the cards. However, max load is hugely different as 680s don't exceed their 225W limit while 7970 goes crazy nearly to 300W.

The problem is gaming load != max load.

anyway i will know soon when my PCS+ 7950 comes in, running both cpu and gpu with big OC.. on a 450W PSU.
This is in game. Total system consumption is below 375 for a GTX 680 and almost 400 for a 7970. So again if power draw was a concern I'd be looking at Nvidia, since it isn't (for me it's no big deal at all) then I look at everything else. Price, performance in games I care about, driver support etc.

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Old 07-07-2012, 12:50 PM   #56
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485w whew, do not overclock!

Bwahaha the 7970 system is using more power than the system with a 690, that's awesome.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:21 PM   #57
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Maybe it's me but if I cannot afford $400 for a video card I should not ever be even close to looking at a $400 card. So trying to say "oh I can pay for it through bitcoin mining" is a little weird.
Who said anything about not being able to afford the card? You're responding to something that was never stated or implied. No one is saying you should take a loan out for your $400-500 video card and let Bitcoin mining pay it back. Mining is a bonus for the AMD cards because over the life of the card the total cost to own it is almost negligible.

When arguments are made about a $350 card vs a $420 card are you trying to tell me that money doesn't matter to people?

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Especially since your power bill isn't free and the 7970/7950 are power hogs compared to their Nvidia counterparts.
The difference in average power consumption is pretty small.


The difference in power consumption per Mhash rate is ridiculous. About 5-6x more efficient for AMD cards.

Quote:
For me, everything is about performance in games. If I wanted my PC to make money I'd be doing Photoshop and Illustrator all day, which I do at work. Then you wouldn't need these DX11 cards.

I don't know if I'm way out in left field here, but wouldn't most people be interested in any of these cards specifically for playing games with in the first place?
I agree with you that gaming performance is the most important aspect of a video card for a large majority of buyers. Doesn't mean Bitcoin mining has no relevancy to the question of which video card to get.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:27 PM   #58
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I was responding to the postings about "if you bitcoin mine you can pay back the cost of the card". The point I made was if you have to do something to make back your money than this isn't your hobby. Bonus or no, if you can afford it then it really doesn't matter and it's a moot point.

Refer to my repost of a chart from right here at Anandtech of total system power consumption during Metro 2033. Big difference.
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:17 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
I was responding to the postings about "if you bitcoin mine you can pay back the cost of the card". The point I made was if you have to do something to make back your money than this isn't your hobby. Bonus or no, if you can afford it then it really doesn't matter and it's a moot point.
I don't understand this point. So what you are saying is it's only a hobby if you waste the most $$$ on it or you can't "Afford it"? HD7970 and GTX670 are the same performance and one makes $ when not gaming and the other doesn't. It's like getting an HD7970 for nearly free or paying $400 for the GTX670. Alternatively it's like getting an HD8970 for $200 in 6 months from today or buying GK110 for $550. That's how I look at it. Why should I pay $550+ for an NV card for similar performance when I can get it for $350 less?

OK, I am pretty sure many here can afford a GTX690 but think it's a waste of $ for most of us. Everyone has different perception of value. Maybe if I made $1k a day, I'd get one. Some people may save $1k for 3 months and get a GTX690 and consider that affordable because they'll use it for 12 months+. It depends on the person. Also, like you said if gaming is your #1 hobby then that matters too.

With bitcoin mining, it's almost like getting a very fast videocard for free. I'll take a "Free" $500 videocard and spend $500 on other things in life. Over 3-4 years that turns into $1,500-2,000. I would be different if there was a huge tradeoff for getting the 7970 (i.e., GTX670 was actually way faster than HD7970, but it isn't).

If $500 was "nothing" to most of us, I doubt we'd even research parts in the first place. We'd all just go out and have 3960X with GTX690 Quad-SLI and never visit the forums since we would own the best, always. I think most people don't care for bitcoin mining because they either don't understand how it works or don't want to spend 15 min to set it up. I am pretty sure if Intel CPUs could do bitcoin mining at GPU rates, every Intel 3900 owner on our forum would be talking about how it's a 'free money'.

The funny part is for the first time since 2006, there is no tradeoff in gaming between an HD7970 and a GTX670/680.

With more recent drivers, even when 680 is overclocked, it can't beat an overclocked 7970 and HD7970 is even cheaper:



I still recommend GTX670 as the best high-end card for $400 since I know most people won't bother setting up bitcoin mining (or for people who pay > $0.20 cents per kWh in electricity rates, it's also probably not worth it). But there are many places where electricity cost is almost a non-factor.
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:46 PM   #60
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Bitcoins seems to be catered for the USA with its dirt cheap electricity rates.

Wish i could make money leaving PC on crunching away

Power use measured directly to the video card differs greatly to AT's results, i think its measuring max load?? Average gaming load is completely different.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:24 PM   #61
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Russian I get your point but if you are comparing based on one being $400 and another being $360 now and maybe later on make some back then yes I feel PC gaming and performance video cards in the upper end of the scale are not for you.

It's only my opinion what is there not to get. You still have to spend near $400 either way to get in the door. If that $400 is too much and the only way to make it work for someone is to mine bitcoins then by all means go for a cheaper card.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:32 PM   #62
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The USA also has the IRS. So if you start converting bitcoins and cashing them to any kind of account. There is no under the table like scenario where the IRS is not going to find out about this income. And want their 25-33% cut. The longer it goes unreported as income the higher the penalties and interest owed.
Never see this aspect of the worth of it all mentioned.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:40 PM   #63
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Feds wouldn't waste then time or dime chasing after petty cash.

Think evaders who earn millions.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:58 PM   #64
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Wouldn't that be something though. Some dude getting busted for setting up a bitcoin mining operation raking in thousands a month and over the course of time gets noticed.
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Old 07-07-2012, 05:07 PM   #65
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It would take several thousand in hardware to be making at least a thousand a month.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:51 PM   #66
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Energy cost in West Australia is about 25c/unit. While I have the money to run the card at load all the time to mine I am not sure it would actually make economic sense with the cost of power as high as it is where I live. Also I have the cash to buy whichever card I want now so I really don't need to factor in mining to recoup some of the cost.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:03 PM   #67
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I dunno if I'd do the bitcoin thing, not knocking it though.

Money is money, but I stopped folding because it is hard on your parts. I've seen a lot of people degrade their hardware when overclocked, and I'm sure it's ticking off more time than normal even if you're running stock.

I plan to keep my gear for awhile though.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:44 AM   #68
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Wouldn't that be something though. Some dude getting busted for setting up a bitcoin mining operation raking in thousands a month and over the course of time gets noticed.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmaton...arge-balances/

At the current exchange rate of ~$6.50 per BTC, the top address on the list holds control to an astonishing $2.85 million in total value (as of 6/20/12). Probably doing something illegal with all that $ hhehe.

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Also I have the cash to buy whichever card I want now so I really don't need to factor in mining to recoup some of the cost.
For $50 price difference, I'd take the GTX670. It's guaranteed faster performance. If you still can't make your decision, when prices are this close, you really should to look at the games you actually play. Take 15 min and go on a game-by-game basis.

For example, NV continues to do very well in BF3:



P.S. On a side-note, looks like the myth that HD7850 can be overclocked to reach top cards is not true for modern games. It trails a stock 7970 by 58% and a GTX680 by 79%. Both the 7970 and 680 have additional overclocking headroom too.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:03 AM   #69
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Or you could buy both and return the one you aren't keeping after you test your games with it.

I don't like this practice of false returns to the retailer but it will allow you to really see which is better for you.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:17 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Silverforce11 View Post
Bitcoins seems to be catered for the USA with its dirt cheap electricity rates.

Wish i could make money leaving PC on crunching away

Power use measured directly to the video card differs greatly to AT's results, i think its measuring max load?? Average gaming load is completely different.
Even then bitcoins get halved in the end of the year. And its basicly close to if not always a loss to mining. The entire concept is build around a pyramid system.
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:07 PM   #71
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I make plenty of money mining as do many other people. You have to know what you're doing.
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:34 PM   #72
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P.S. On a side-note, looks like the myth that HD7850 can be overclocked to reach top cards is not true for modern games. It trails a stock 7970 by 58% and a GTX680 by 79%. Both the 7970 and 680 have additional overclocking headroom too.
A 7850 OC is not about reaching top tier performance. It's about reaching gtx580 performance levels for ~$250 and half the power use, which is what I considered good value when 28nm gpus were released. The fact that a lot of them OC to be as fast as an OC 580 is a bonus. This is not only coming from me, if you were to search forums prior to 28nm release, a lot of users thought getting a $250 mid-range card that performs like 580 for much less power use would be "perfect".

What's a great bargain now are custom 7950s going for a bit over $300. These certainly OC to match stock "turbo" gtx680. This is just great value.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/M...dition/31.html

^ 18% OC => 18% perf gain = on par with gtx580.

As to the 7950 OC:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/powerc...-pcs-review/24

vs

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-680-review/25
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:49 PM   #73
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A 7850 OC is not about reaching top tier performance. It's about reaching gtx580 performance levels for ~$250 and half the power use, which is what I considered good value when 28nm gpus were released. The fact that a lot of them OC to be as fast as an OC 580 is a bonus. This is not only coming from me, if you were to search forums prior to 28nm release, a lot of users thought getting a $250 mid-range card that performs like 580 for much less power use would be "perfect".

What's a great bargain now are custom 7950s going for a bit over $300. These certainly OC to match stock "turbo" gtx680. This is just great value.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/M...dition/31.html

^ 18% OC => 18% perf gain = on par with gtx580.

As to the 7950 OC:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/powerc...-pcs-review/24

vs

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-680-review/25
Well said. There isn't enough to differentiate these cards to justify spending $100+. I see this thread has been spinning wheels for a few days and yet no one has offered a decent explanation as to why the OP shouldn't buy a custom 7950 for $350, give it a quick overclock, and save $70-150. As I said:
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The Gigabyte 7950 is the best option you listed, this isn't even a contest.
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:12 PM   #74
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I gave a decent reason. Battlefield 3 and Skyrim runs better on a GTX 670 by a bit.

If you don't play BF3 and don't care about skyrim then I don't think it matters which way you go.
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:23 PM   #75
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18% OC for 18% perf gain is a bit of a stretch isn't it? I know some other users tried to pass off 80% gains from 45% overclocks, but let's not get carried away.


At $350 it's a $50 difference, nothing has changed, a faster card is $50 more expensive and offers a richer feature set.
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