"End student loans, don't make them cheaper"

[Infohawk]

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/c...=all&prepage=1

U.S. employers complain that they can't find enough skilled employees. Then how do we explain why almost 54 percent of recent college graduates are underemployed or unemployed, even in scientific and technical fields, according to a study conducted for the Associated Press by Northeastern University researchers?

The cause is more fundamental than the cycles of the economy: The country is turning out far more college graduates than jobs exist in the areas traditionally reserved for them: the managerial, technical and professional occupations.

This is a case where I'd like some middle-ground. I don't think we should go back to the days when only wealthy people could afford to send their kids to college and perpetuate undeserved class distinctions. On the other hand we can't just fund any tuition increase. A lot of this money should go towards shoring up affordable public colleges and universities.

[mmntech]

Employers want people who know the job without training, and believe youth are lazy and entitled. That last part is certainly partly true, but too generalized. I don't think university should be free. If it's free, it becomes meaningless and you do become entitled like those kids in Quebec. However, indebting our students so much is hurting society. Loans should be harder to get, and more restricted on what they can be spent on. I knew kids who spent their loans on everything but school.

[IndyColtsFan]

Allow me to translate from "employer speak" to English. When a US employer says that they can't find skilled employees, what they really are saying is that they can't find someone with 10+ years of experience, multiple degrees and/or certifications, and willing to work at an entry-level salary.

[Argo]

Originally Posted by IndyColtsFan

Allow me to translate from "employer speak" to English. When a US employer says that they can't find skilled employees, what they really are saying is that they can't find someone with 10+ years of experience, multiple degrees and/or certifications, and willing to work at an entry-level salary.

Maybe in some areas. In tech it is truly hard to find qualified candidates. Big tech companies will hire anybody, as long as they meet the bar. However, only a percentage of recent grads are able to pass the interview.

I don't know if it's the colleges to blame, or we simply have a lot of people in the wrong field - but it is extremely hard to find strong tech talent these days.

[HardcoreRobot]

people need to be responsible about the loans they take. its a tough pill to swallow, but maybe dumping 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars for a degree that doesn't qualify you for much employment is a poor decision.

[her209]

This is fantastic for the companies. The prospective employee takes on massive debt to train themselves at no cost to the employer.

FANTASTIC!

[Jhhnn]

Originally Posted by her209

This is fantastic for the companies. The prospective employee takes on massive debt to train themselves at no cost to the employer.

FANTASTIC!

And, as a bonus, those hired will take all the crap their employer dishes out, beg for more. It's symptomatic of the fact that many employers are currently looting America, not investing in it, not investing in the skills of their employees.

Say "Corn", Julio. Say it like you love it as much as life itself.

[CPA]

Want to pay cheaper college costs or not get hit with a huge loan payment after graduating. Here's some tips:

1) Go to an in-state college.
2) Get your first two years of courses (ie, the prerequisites) at a community college or junior college
3) Live off-campus either sharing an apartment or living with relatives
4) Take relevant courses to your degree. Don't take fluff that you don't need.
5) Rent books or buy used
6) Take online courses
7) Only borrow what you need for the classes. Don't take extra because it's like "free money"
8) Work while you study so you can pay for some of your costs with cash.

I'd like to know the percentage of students/graduates who are buried by student loans that did any of these. I'm guessing very little. There's a whole hell of a lot you can do for yourself instead of whining for more help from the government.

[Jhhnn]

Originally Posted by CPA

Want to pay cheaper college costs or not get hit with a huge loan payment after graduating. Here's some tips:

1) Go to an in-state college.
2) Get your first two years of courses (ie, the prerequisites) at a community college or junior college
3) Live off-campus either sharing an apartment or living with relatives
4) Take relevant courses to your degree. Don't take fluff that you don't need.
5) Rent books or buy used
6) Take online courses
7) Only borrow what you need for the classes. Don't take extra because it's like "free money"
8) Work while you study so you can pay for some of your costs with cash.

I'd like to know the percentage of students/graduates who are buried by student loans that did any of these. I'm guessing very little. There's a whole hell of a lot you can do for yourself instead of whining for more help from the government.

All good advice which doesn't fit well with what admissions officers & loan officers tell starry-eyed 18 year old kids.

Work? easier said than done in today's economy, particularly in a college town. The last paragraph? Negative aspersions towards people & situations you don't understand in the slightest.

But, of course, you're "just guessing", huh?

[Paul98]

Originally Posted by CPA

Want to pay cheaper college costs or not get hit with a huge loan payment after graduating. Here's some tips:

1) Go to an in-state college.
2) Get your first two years of courses (ie, the prerequisites) at a community college or junior college
3) Live off-campus either sharing an apartment or living with relatives
4) Take relevant courses to your degree. Don't take fluff that you don't need.
5) Rent books or buy used
6) Take online courses
7) Only borrow what you need for the classes. Don't take extra because it's like "free money"
8) Work while you study so you can pay for some of your costs with cash.

I'd like to know the percentage of students/graduates who are buried by student loans that did any of these. I'm guessing very little. There's a whole hell of a lot you can do for yourself instead of whining for more help from the government.

This x100, you can make it through school with a good degree from a good university and it's affordable.

I would also like to add if you don't have the time to work while trying to finish in four years. Don't go for it, take the classes you can handle while working. You can make it through without having to take out any student loans, or very few.

[nehalem256]

Originally Posted by Jhhnn

All good advice which doesn't fit well with what admissions officers & loan officers tell starry-eyed 18 year old kids.

Work? easier said than done in today's economy, particularly in a college town. The last paragraph? Negative aspersions towards people & situations you don't understand in the slightest.

But, of course, you're "just guessing", huh?

I think what he is doing is applying common sense.

I seem to recall a recent thread discussing about how farmers were unable to find people to pick their crops... seems like the jobs are available if you are willing to do the work.

[DucatiMonster696]

Originally Posted by Infohawk

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/c...=all&prepage=1



This is a case where I'd like some middle-ground. I don't think we should go back to the days when only wealthy people could afford to send their kids to college and perpetuate undeserved class distinctions. On the other hand we can't just fund any tuition increase. A lot of this money should go towards shoring up affordable public colleges and universities.

Excuse me but prior to the days of easily attained federally backed student loans and the changes to our bankruptcy laws most people were still able to attend a respectable college or university if they had the drive, decision making ability and mental capacity to succeed. Those that did not were usually weeded out and avoided the entire debt cycle altogether to the economic benefit of themselves and society as a whole.

The only other big difference from the past was that attending a really expensive school was usually not an option unless you were wealthy because most banks would not lend that type of money to the average person so that they may sink themselves into massive debt which they (banks) knew was not going to be paid off if this person did not major in something that would grant them "big bucks" shortly after graduation.

Furthermore in today's easy access to credit for students loans era the side of effects we are seeing is the continual jacking up tuition prices as colleges seek to stave off this increased demand from students with borrowed money to burn. Ironically though another side effect of allowing for easy credit via fed backed student loans is that it has also benefited some wealthier students more so then the "poor" students whom politicians claim to want to help. The reason being is that for some wealthier students they can attain access to this easy credit and the debt they do incur is not as great an issue for them as it is for those who come from a true low income backgrounds.

Thus good intentions do not always equate to positive results in this case. Especially if one does not understand the potential consequences (intended or not) that have and are occurring with governmental polices that have very clearly demonstrated to effected by fundamental economic principals at work today in our higher education system.

Therefore it is my opinion that any major decision on this topic has to be formed formed first and foremost from a solid understanding and acknowledgement of these basic economic principals that effect not only college or university tuition rates but also acknowledge the effects of what occurs to post-graduates in an employment marketplace facing a glut of individuals with college degrees. In other words placing to much emotional or political stock in having "EVERYONE" attend college rather then fixing the economic situation that leads to higher college and university tuition rates, along with higher rates of massive unsustainable student loan debts being incurred, and the bleak post graduation employment situation should be first and foremost for any so called proposed solution.

[piasabird]

Colleges and universities do not usually train technical people in specific job related skills for every known server and database and application on the face of the earth. That is the Employer's job. There are no such people. From my experience you can train a monkey to write a program.

There are two facts you need to know.
1. The federal government forced the takeover of student loans.
2. The federal government makes money from student loans.

So if the rates go up the governemnt just makes more money off of the suffering of people. This is the Tyrany of the progressives. They will not be happy till every worker is paid slave wages. This is the future you will get from O'Bammah. If you voted for O'Bammah you are the problem.

By issuing student loans the Federal Government is running its own Bank.

[Zorkorist]

Originally Posted by HardcoreRobot

people need to be responsible about the loans they take. its a tough pill to swallow, but maybe dumping 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars for a degree that doesn't qualify you for much employment is a poor decision.

You can't go to school today without dumping 10s of thousands of dollars on it.

When I started college, in the early 80s, I was spending $400 per semester (5x classes, full load). A few years later, I was spending $400 on books.

Ridiculous.

-John

[cybrsage]

I CLEP'd all of my non-core courses for my Nuclear Engineering degree. Humanities, history, math, English with Essay (middle English on an exam? really??), etc. I studied and took the final exam and it cost me next to nothing.


http://clep.collegeboard.org/

[Jhhnn]

Originally Posted by piasabird

Colleges and universities do not usually train technical people in specific job related skills for every known server and database and application on the face of the earth. That is the Employer's job. There are no such people. From my experience you can train a monkey to write a program.

There are two facts you need to know.
1. The federal government forced the takeover of student loans.
2. The federal government makes money from student loans.

So if the rates go up the governemnt just makes more money off of the suffering of people. This is the Tyrany of the progressives. They will not be happy till every worker is paid slave wages. This is the future you will get from O'Bammah. If you voted for O'Bammah you are the problem.

By issuing student loans the Federal Government is running its own Bank.

Heh. That's so far out in the weeds as to be laughable. Until just recently, the govt loaned the money to banks to make student loans, who added a piece for themselves onto the top of it, with the whole thing guaranteed by govt. It was welfare for bankers. They whined like spoiled little princesses when it was taken from them, and borrowers now pay a lower rate.

Who's the loser in that, other than the bankers?

[unokitty]

Originally Posted by Jhhnn

Who's the loser in that, other than the bankers?

The students that have to repay the loan?

One of the points that the original article makes is that Federal Aid has the unintended effect of raising student costs.

If you were to graph the rise in student aid, you would find that it matches the rise in college costs. It also correlates with the declining state support for public universities. After all, why should the state legislators support the public university when the university can, and does, transfer the cost to the students?

That is, all of this aid seems to benefit the schools and the states but not the students.

I think that you can see who loses...

Uno

[theevilsharpie]

Originally Posted by piasabird

There are two facts you need to know.
1. The federal government forced the takeover of student loans.
2. The federal government makes money from student loans.

The federal government only took over the administration of federal student loans. The interest rates of these loans have always been regulated by the government, and private lenders simply provided basic administration and took a cut of the loan's profits. A federal takeover simply eliminated the middle man.

Private student loans continue to exist.

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally Posted by Jhhnn

All good advice which doesn't fit well with what admissions officers & loan officers tell starry-eyed 18 year old kids.

Work? easier said than done in today's economy, particularly in a college town. The last paragraph? Negative aspersions towards people & situations you don't understand in the slightest.

And you understand them? Don't make us laugh. Seriously, all you do is spew your partisan rhetoric and don't offer any suggestions, unlike CPA, whose list was quite good.

Universities and loan officers are partially to blame, but it is REALLY hard to feel bad for someone who goes into six figure debt for an art history degree. Where are the parents in all of this? Why aren't the parents helping their kids avoid these pitfalls by explaining the consequences?. Why aren't the parents saying "Junior, you're going to have a REALLY hard time finding meaningful employment with your art history degree?"

At one time, I was perhaps the biggest defender of universities, degrees, etc, but no more. Universities pedal degrees they know are worthless and people who frankly don't have the skills to major in something worthwhile eat these up (I'm looking at you, degrees ending with the word "Studies"). People should be smarter than that and know those degrees aren't worth the paper they're written on. The blame goes both ways and the idiots who show up periodically on CNN whining about their $150K in student loans for their Women's Studies degree are just advertising their lack of critical thinking and analytical skills.

[Doppel]

Easy loan money has definitely changed, for the worse, the college climate. Back in the day if you came out of college with a toilet paper degree (those with demonstrably poor earnings over the lifetime of the career, including most liberal arts, as proven in various studies on the matter) and $10k in debt it was pretty sad, but maybe you had a laugh out of it. Now you're entering a far more competitive climate and your debt is higher. It's not a laughing matter.

It's a sickened environment, one in which a student can get as much money as they want, cannot discharge it in bankruptcy, can even use that money for a toilet paper degree, and to add gas to the fire their parents' finances are even put under strain. Saved lots of money? Thanks, Mom and Dad, that just means my assistance will be lower.

[Jhhnn]

Originally Posted by IndyColtsFan

And you understand them? Don't make us laugh. Seriously, all you do is spew your partisan rhetoric and don't offer any suggestions, unlike CPA, whose list was quite good.

Universities and loan officers are partially to blame, but it is REALLY hard to feel bad for someone who goes into six figure debt for an art history degree. Where are the parents in all of this? Why aren't the parents helping their kids avoid these pitfalls by explaining the consequences?. Why aren't the parents saying "Junior, you're going to have a REALLY hard time finding meaningful employment with your art history degree?"

At one time, I was perhaps the biggest defender of universities, degrees, etc, but no more. Universities pedal degrees they know are worthless and people who frankly don't have the skills to major in something worthwhile eat these up (I'm looking at you, degrees ending with the word "Studies"). People should be smarter than that and know those degrees aren't worth the paper they're written on. The blame goes both ways and the idiots who show up periodically on CNN whining about their $150K in student loans for their Women's Studies degree are just advertising their lack of critical thinking and analytical skills.

You don't seem to know much about it, either, offering up extreme "examples" as if they were representative. They're not.

It wouldn't be such a big problem if grads had jobs waiting for them, but that's not true, either.

Next up, the usual song & dance about how if you got a better degree, you'd get a better job, as if that wouldn't just be a self defeating argument. Other than extremely specialized limited demand niche degrees, unemployment is high for all new grads. If we graduated more engineers, there'd just be more unemployed engineers.

Job Creators? Hardly. Financialized capitalism has discovered that job destruction is more profitable in the short run, and that's all that seems to matter.

[Jhhnn]

Originally Posted by unokitty

One of the points that the original article makes is that Federal Aid has the unintended effect of raising student costs.

It's not a "point", it's an attribution on your part, not what the article says at all-

Fifth, colleges' tuition and fee policies drive the amount of loan volume, rather than the other way around, thus contributing to the college-cost explosion and the subsequent academic arms race.

Cart & horse need to be in the proper order...

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally Posted by Jhhnn

You don't seem to know much about it, either, offering up extreme "examples" as if they were representative. They're not.

It wouldn't be such a big problem if grads had jobs waiting for them, but that's not true, either.

People going into six figure debt are going to have issues even with a job waiting for them unless they happen to be a doctor, and even that may no longer be true in a few years.

Next up, the usual song & dance about how if you got a better degree, you'd get a better job, as if that wouldn't just be a self defeating argument. Other than extremely specialized limited demand niche degrees, unemployment is high for all new grads. If we graduated more engineers, there'd just be more unemployed engineers.

I think you'd miss the point if you were bludgeoned with it. Seriously, this isn't a difficult concept. When you evaluate a degree program, you must look at it as an investment. NOTHING in life is guaranteed. NOTHING. BUT, you need to evaluate the job prospects in a field, average salaries, etc. before assuming debt. The "extreme examples" in my argument are NOT extreme examples. Student loan debt has exceeded credit card debt. Every day we are confronted with stories of people in loads of school debt who can't afford to get out from under it, and guess what? Many of these people HAVE JOBS. Someone graduating with tens of thousands of dollars in debt for an art history degree is an idiot and that degree virtually has no chance of landing a higher-paying job to start out with and will be stuck in debt for YEARS.

Those who think going to college is about the "experience" and "finding yourself" and "discovering boundaries" are naive. While all those things can be included, the primary focus should be on finding a major with a future.

Let me guess, you're a liberal arts professor? If so, let me say -- LOL!

Job Creators? Hardly. Financialized capitalism has discovered that job destruction is more profitable in the short run, and that's all that seems to matter.

Color me shocked -- Jhhnn going off on another partisan rant with no substantive contribution and saying "You clearly don't know" without showing he knows anything at all and offering no solutions, just complaints. Enough of your bitter, whiny partisan rants. What is your solution? If you can't answer that, don't bother responding.

[Genx87]

Originally Posted by Jhhnn

Heh. That's so far out in the weeds as to be laughable. Until just recently, the govt loaned the money to banks to make student loans, who added a piece for themselves onto the top of it, with the whole thing guaranteed by govt. It was welfare for bankers. They whined like spoiled little princesses when it was taken from them, and borrowers now pay a lower rate.

Who's the loser in that, other than the bankers?

Try the students who have to pay back large loans. Who is the winner? The university system that has students flush with federal money flooding their campus's every semester.

The bankers were just an extra layer of a larger welfare system to the universities.

[dank69]

Originally Posted by IndyColtsFan

Allow me to translate from "employer speak" to English. When a US employer says that they can't find skilled employees, what they really are saying is that they can't find someone with 10+ years of experience, multiple degrees and/or certifications, and willing to work at an entry-level salary.

This.

Make sure your vote supports tax cuts for job creators. It's the only way things will improve.