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Old 03-22-2012, 08:55 AM   #3926
Don Vito Corleone
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Originally Posted by Londo_Jowo View Post
He could very well be indicted and the case never make it trial. His lawyers would have the chance to convince the judge it was self defense and the case be dismissed based on the immunity clause in the law. This has happened in at least once case since the law was enacted.
That seems much likelier to me than him not being indicted. I actually don't think this is an open-and-shut case for the defense by any means, and hope that the more competent FBI investigators who will take over this investigation do a better job of digging up evidence. I don't know much about whatever voice-printing they will do on the 911 tapes, but if it turns out that the voice screaming was Mr. Martin's, that alone would probably be enough to defeat a motion to dismiss based on the "stand your ground" law.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:09 AM   #3927
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but if it turns out that the voice screaming was Mr. Martin's, that alone would probably be enough to defeat a motion to dismiss based on the "stand your ground" law.
I really wish someone involved in the petition to have Mr. Zimmerman arrested would launch a petition to change Florida's law. Because it's the glaring oversight and loophole in that badly written law that ties the hands of Florida P.D.s and prosecutors.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:19 AM   #3928
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I really wish someone involved in the petition to have Mr. Zimmerman arrested would launch a petition to change Florida's law. Because it's the glaring oversight and loophole in that badly written law that ties the hands of Florida P.D.s and prosecutors.
There are some "badly written laws" in other states IMO, but every state gets to write it's own laws. We passed a law in our state that said all you needed to carry a concealed weapon was a valid drivers license, but the governor vetoed it.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:21 AM   #3929
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That seems much likelier to me than him not being indicted. I actually don't think this is an open-and-shut case for the defense by any means, and hope that the more competent FBI investigators who will take over this investigation do a better job of digging up evidence. I don't know much about whatever voice-printing they will do on the 911 tapes, but if it turns out that the voice screaming was Mr. Martin's, that alone would probably be enough to defeat a motion to dismiss based on the "stand your ground" law.

Well put. The man is innocent until proven guilty... which could very well happen once all the facts have been investigated.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:29 AM   #3930
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Politicians/law enforcement are going to have a major nationwide problem on their hands if Z walks.

Based on the level of outrage I see now, if he is acquitted it could reach a level greater then Rodney King and just under the level of Martin Luther King.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:33 AM   #3931
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Politicians/law enforcement are going to have a major nationwide problem on their hands if Z walks.

Based on the level of outrage I see now, if he is acquitted it could reach a level greater then Rodney King and just under the level of Martin Luther King.
I agree.

Watch the video here

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news...od-altercation

and tell me what you think.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:34 AM   #3932
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I really wish someone involved in the petition to have Mr. Zimmerman arrested would launch a petition to change Florida's law. Because it's the glaring oversight and loophole in that badly written law that ties the hands of Florida P.D.s and prosecutors.
While that may be true to some extent, from what I've seen the police have sided w\ the shooter.

Which to me shows that they see a 17 year old black kid and just write him off and side w\ the other guy.


I'm just pointing out that this in fact is racist behavior. Black youths certainly don't help their cause the way alot of them behave... but stereotyping all of them is racist behavior.

Writing the dead black kid off and not questioning the killer... racist. Defending the shooter because he only killed a black kid... racist.

Spidey? Racist.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:38 AM   #3933
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There are some "badly written laws" in other states IMO
Ok but when a badly written law has discouraged some Florida P.D.s from even investigating a shooting when self-defense was claimed because the standards of self-defense are lowered so much, that's a pretty effing bad law... wouldn't you say?
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:43 AM   #3934
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Politicians/law enforcement are going to have a major nationwide problem on their hands if Z walks.

Based on the level of outrage I see now, if he is acquitted it could reach a level greater then Rodney King and just under the level of Martin Luther King.
I agree it will be big, but not that big. The dynamic with Rodney King had a lot to do with his incident happening near a huge city with many people of color and a high-visibility police chief who was perceived, fairly or unfairly, as being a bigot and perpetuating a racist law enforcement regimen - Chief Gates was the same man who inspired NWA's "Fuck tha Police."

Moreover, this incident is nowhere near as clear-cut as the King incident, where there was videotape of the police behaving in a way that almost anyone would agree was shocking and unnecessarily brutal. I may be giving people too much credit, but I think most people understand that if Zimmerman isn't convicted it won't be because the authorities think he didn't do something wrong - it will be because of a stupidly overbroad "stand your ground" law.

At a minimum I hope this incident sparks discussion that leads to legislative reform. Actually our own governor just vetoed such a measure two weeks ago that was strongly backed by the Republicans in our legislature but opposed by police - http://www.startribune.com/politics/...tml?page=1&c=y. The Trayvon Martin shooting had happened some weeks earlier but had not been widely reported on at the time of the veto, and as far as I know nobody in our state government was aware of it. In hindsight the governor did the legislature a favor by vetoing it - I can only imagine the hue and cry if they had pushed through a bill like this at this moment in history.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:46 AM   #3935
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Ok but when a badly written law has discouraged some Florida P.D.s from even investigating a shooting when self-defense was claimed because the standards of self-defense are lowered so much, that's a pretty effing bad law... wouldn't you say?
exactly.

EVEN IF the sanford police misapplied the law, the harsh penalties to the individual arresting officer (!) actively discourages honest investigation. It is about the broader signal the law is sending out.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:47 AM   #3936
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Compared to Rodney King though, this kid is Mother Mary. But yeah, Rodney King really was about that video.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:49 AM   #3937
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While that may be true to some extent, from what I've seen the police have sided w\ the shooter.

Which to me shows that they see a 17 year old black kid and just write him off and side w\ the other guy.


I'm just pointing out that this in fact is racist behavior. Black youths certainly don't help their cause the way alot of them behave... but stereotyping all of them is racist behavior.

Writing the dead black kid off and not questioning the killer... racist. Defending the shooter because he only killed a black kid... racist.

Spidey? Racist.
They did question the shooter.

Describe "defending" the shooter. I think that the police don't give a fuck about Zimmerman. He is not one of their own, he was annoying and was a boy who cried wolf, and he did in-fact kill an innocent person which no PD likes.

Most of the source of "PD is unfair" comes from one person: Mary Cutcher.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:51 AM   #3938
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They did question the shooter.

Describe "defending" the shooter. I think that the police don't give a fuck about Zimmerman. He is not one of their own, he was annoying and was a boy who cried wolf, and he did in-fact kill an innocent person which no PD likes.

Most of the source of "PD is unfair" comes from one person: Mary Cutcher.
Not at all, I don't count Mary Cutcher in any of my negative feelings towards the Sanford PD, only you. You can't seem to drop it.

Everything I read now, doesn't even mention her.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:52 AM   #3939
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While that may be true to some extent, from what I've seen the police have sided w\ the shooter.

Which to me shows that they see a 17 year old black kid and just write him off and side w\ the other guy.


I'm just pointing out that this in fact is racist behavior. Black youths certainly don't help their cause the way alot of them behave... but stereotyping all of them is racist behavior.

Writing the dead black kid off and not questioning the killer... racist. Defending the shooter because he only killed a black kid... racist.

Spidey? Racist.
I would side with the shooter regardless of race involved until there is evidence that shows different. All evidence, eye witness testimony, etc shows Zimmerman was viciously attacked, T over him beating him, Z crying for help and his life. Zimmerman committed no crime, there is no evidence he did. Race has nothing to do with it.

I have repeatedly asked for some shred of evidence Zimmerman committed a crime - you guys have provided NOTHING. Instead of focusing on the facts and evidence of this case as I have, most of you are focused on race - that makes you racist, so willing to hang an innocent hispanic man.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:54 AM   #3940
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Not at all, I don't count Mary Cutcher in any of my negative feelings towards the Sanford PD, only you. You can't seem to drop it.

Everything I read now, doesn't even mention her.
All of the allegations, which get echoed in other sources, about the PD blowing off witnesses and correcting witness testimony, all comes from her interview. So when Sharpton says that "there are reports that the PD is ignoring witnesses" it really is all her.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:57 AM   #3941
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ROFL I can't believe people comparing this to rodney king, you've got to be kidding me.



Trayvon's girlfriend stated that he tried to hide when he saw the neighborhood watch guy following him while on the phone with the cops, after the neighborhood has had multiple break-ins.

We have multiple eyewitness accounts who heard adult screaming help, and SAW a 6'3 trayvon on top of zimmerman beating him.

Zimmerman then shot the man who was reported as attacking him.





There will be no outrage by anyone who thinks logically, particularly if the details match what we've heard so far.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:57 AM   #3942
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All of the allegations, which get echoed in other sources, about the PD blowing off witnesses and correcting witness testimony, all comes from her interview. So when Sharpton says that "there are reports that the PD is ignoring witnesses" it really is all her.


This.


Everyone is outraged over things they have heard from TWO sources.. Mary Cutcher and the attacker's family lawyers.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:58 AM   #3943
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Since the law was passed in 2005, the usual practice has been to charge the shooter and then let the State's Attorney or the court to decide if it was justifiable. Very few of these that do go to trial end in a not guilty verdict. Because no prosecutor is going to try a case like this without ample evidence to support their case.

Now in this case there has been a real lack of information coming out. Simple things like the voice matching, forensic tests of the victims clothing for gun powder residue. DNA testing of Mr. Zimmerman's clothing for the victims blood.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:59 AM   #3944
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All of the allegations, which get echoed in other sources, about the PD blowing off witnesses and correcting witness testimony, all comes from her interview. So when Sharpton says that "there are reports that the PD is ignoring witnesses" it really is all her.
Again, no it's not. They're talking about Martin's GF now. So, please stop it.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:59 AM   #3945
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Describe "defending" the shooter. I think that the police don't give a fuck about Zimmerman. He is not one of their own, he was annoying and was a boy who cried wolf, and he did in-fact kill an innocent person which no PD likes.
I wouldn't go so far as saying defending Mr. Zimmerman because that stupid Florida law is a huge factor.

However an inside source did tell ABC that a arcotics detective started peppering Mr. Zimmerman with questions and that the proper procedure would have been to get Mr. Zimmerman to relate what happened to a homicide detective with as few questions as possible. That part has been linked in this thread before.

If the inside source is reliable it points to a rather poor start to the investigation as does no sobriety test on Mr. Zimmerman. A law enforcement expert for one news organization called into question Mr. Zimmerman's sobriety after listening to the first 911 tape. I didn't notice anything but then again I'm not trained to look for signs of alcohol/drug influence in a person's speech. That calls into question whether or not Mr. Zimmerman should have been tested.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:04 AM   #3946
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There will be no outrage by anyone who thinks logically, particularly if the details match what we've heard so far.
I'm outraged... Florida's self defense law should be changed as soon as possible.

Any law that ends up with some police departments not fully investigating a shooting in which a claim of self-defense is made because the standard of self-defense is so fucking low is a shitty law.

As for the actual shooting. People who go "lol good shoot" need to be a bit more low-key because regardless of the exact details it's still obvious that if Mr. Zimmerman had waited for the police like the dispatcher said he should do, Trayvon Martin would very very likely still be alive and a tragedy would have been avoided.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:05 AM   #3947
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I'm outraged... Florida's self defense law should be changed as soon as possible.

Any law that ends up with some police departments not fully investigating a shooting in which a claim of self-defense is made because the standard of self-defense is so fucking low is a shitty law.

As for the actual shooting. People who go "lol good shoot" need to be a bit more low-key because regardless of the exact details it's still obvious that if Mr. Zimmerman had waited for the police like the dispatcher said he should do, Trayvon Martin would very very likely still be alive and a tragedy would have been avoided.

Then bitch about the lawmakers. This isn't the police, this isn't about zimmerman and him being white/mexican, this is about how laws are setup in Florida.



Like it or not, we will probably not ever know EXACTLY what happened in this situation. To throw zimmerman, the PD, or even the laws under such emotional scrutiny shows a complete lack of rational thought and self-control. You all need to wait to hear more details before burning anyone at the stake.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:06 AM   #3948
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you guys have provided NOTHING.
Hard to provide something when a shitty ass law discourages full investigations of shootings in which self-defense is claimed isn't it?

That law needs to be changed... adding the clause that Waggy mentioned is in the Texas law would be a good start and might be all that is necessary.

We do know this. Trayvon Martin did try at first to remove himself from the situation... unlike Mr. Zimmerman who initially followed.

Under the Texas law it would be much harder to claim self-defense in that instance from what I understand.

When they finally were in close proximity it's uncertain who initiated the fight but it's fairly certain an untrained Mr. Zimmerman didn't do anything to help defuse the situation which arguably should be in the armed person's interests.

"What are you doing here?" is different enough from a reasonable "From Hey I'm Neighborhood watch I just wanted to know if you're lost." to question Mr. Zimmerman's competence.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:08 AM   #3949
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Again, no it's not. They're talking about Martin's GF now. So, please stop it.
It's an oversight. What she is alleging is active badgering and dismissing of witnesses by the PD.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:10 AM   #3950
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Then bitch about the lawmakers. This isn't the police, this isn't about zimmerman and him being white/mexican, this is about how laws are setup in Florida.



Like it or not, we will probably not ever know EXACTLY what happened in this situation. To throw zimmerman, the PD, or even the laws under such emotional scrutiny shows a complete lack of rational thought and self-control. You all need to wait to hear more details before burning anyone at the stake.
I agree, but the same logic applies to people like spidey who are prejudging the facts to favor Mr. Zimmerman and damn Mr. Martin. I know this probably goes without saying, but since we have at least one member willing to fabricate a "ghetto stomp" based on no evidence whatsoever, I'm not sure I can take anyone's common sense for granted.
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