Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Hardware and Technology > CPUs and Overclocking

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals
· Free Stuff
· Contests and Sweepstakes
· Black Friday 2013
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-10-2012, 11:24 AM   #501
AtenRa
Diamond Member
 
AtenRa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 5,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelov View Post

It probably will, but the bigger issue here is how AMD's Kaveri will fair against Haswell on the mobile end. If it's like the current HD4000 vs. 7660G then AMD will be in trouble. Intel's on-die graphics, though far from stellar in desktop are actually quite decent in mobile. AMD's APUs are a reversal of roles in that their desktop APUs perform far better than do the mobile SKUs do to a variety of factors-- clock speeds, inefficiency at the fab level, reliance on DDR3's bus for cache, etc.

If Haswell trumps Kaveri's on-die graphics in the mobile segment then AMD will have nothing going for it on either side of the CPU... outside of drivers Intel has done better but they're still far from respectable for gaming.
At the same TDP the AMD Trinity is much faster than HD4000 in Laptops. Kaveri will be made at 28nm process and I'm expecting a nice performance/wattage increase over Trinity, especially in GPU compute and DX-11 gaming due to GCN architecture.

With HW, Intel will start to sacrifice CPU performance by raising the iGPU die size and power usage. Perhaps Socket 2011 will become the dominant enthusiast platform in the near future much like 1366 used to be.
__________________
Thief : Mantle CPU Scaling and Power evaluation
(10 CPUs at default and Overclock, including Power Consumption)
AtenRa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 11:31 AM   #502
inf64
Platinum Member
 
inf64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,000
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimpr View Post
You know what, i saw a video on Intels web site with an interview of some Israeli cpu architects, Haifa team, and they said that Intels new pipeline is modular and will be gradually introduced in 2-3 generations of cpus, that means that they could implement FMA3 and AVX2 even in SB/IB gen imho.
Come again? SB and IB are finished designs,there is zero chance of them having either FMA or AVX2.
__________________
ShintaiDK:"There will be no APU in PS4 and Xbox720."
ShintaiDK:"No quadchannel either.[in Kaveri]"
CHADBOGA:"Because he[OBR] is a great man."
inf64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 11:36 AM   #503
pelov
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimpr View Post
You know what, i saw a video on Intels web site with an interview of some Israeli cpu architects, Haifa team, and they said that Intels new pipeline is modular and will be gradually introduced in 2-3 generations of cpus, that means that they could implement FMA3 and AVX2 even in SB/IB gen imho.
Too late for that


Quote:
Originally Posted by AtenRa View Post
At the same TDP the AMD Trinity is much faster than HD4000 in Laptops. Kaveri will be made at 28nm process and I'm expecting a nice performance/wattage increase over Trinity, especially in GPU compute and DX-11 gaming due to GCN architecture.

With HW, Intel will start to sacrifice CPU performance by raising the iGPU die size and power usage. Perhaps Socket 2011 will become the dominant enthusiast platform in the near future much like 1366 used to be.
My point was that HD4000 is far closer to 7660G in mobile than it is on the desktop. The 17W TDP chips are pretty much neck-and-neck with each other as far as graphics performance goes. Intel's approach of maintaining the same exact on-die graphics (minus clock speed) is a better approach in mobile. The 7660G in AMD's A10s performs roughly on par or just under a 540m but HD4000 on a 35W Intel chip isn't too far behind. If Intel manage to bring the same performance bump they did from SB>IB to HW then AMD is in big trouble. On the desktop AMD would still fair better but that's not where the sales are.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Childs View Post
hahahahaha "Is this 911? John Travolta just stroked my shaft, call the president!"
pelov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 12:15 PM   #504
Khato
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtenRa View Post
At the same TDP the AMD Trinity is much faster than HD4000 in Laptops. Kaveri will be made at 28nm process and I'm expecting a nice performance/wattage increase over Trinity, especially in GPU compute and DX-11 gaming due to GCN architecture.
I'd tend to say that at the same TDP, Trinity is either on par with or much faster than IVB depending upon the game. It's an important distinction, because the real unknown with HSW is whether or not the architectural bottlenecks in the design will be taken care of. If they are, then AMD is in trouble plain and simple. If they aren't, well, then it'll more or less be a continuation of the status quo where Intel may look good in 3Dmark Vantage and some games while failing miserably at others.
Khato is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 12:19 PM   #505
BenchPress
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelov View Post
That's just a silly way of stating: Unless it's AVX2, the performance increase will be minimal.
AVX2 will be supported by lots of multimedia applications on the day of Haswell's launch, or not long after. Just look at how fast SSE4 was supported, and that didn't offer anywhere near double the performance like AVX2 does! Also any application that uses OpenCL can instantly benefit from Intel's next version with AVX2 support, which will no doubt coincide with Haswell's launch. Likewise TSX can be used by the operating system so it doesn't require a major rewrite of each application to start benefiting from it.

Either way you can't say Haswell only focusses on power consumption when it provides major performance enhancements like AVX2 and TSX. Sure the days when legacy applications became significantly faster by upgrading the CPU are over, but that's not a problem in today's connected world where software can easily be updated.
BenchPress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 12:41 PM   #506
BenchPress
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelov View Post
I'm well aware, just pointing it out to our resident AVX2 superhero. Regular users and even enthusiasts won't see anything come to fruition from the newer ISAs until at least a couple of years down the line, much like every ISA that's been tacked on.
You're wrong. AVX2 is nothing like those previous ISA extensions. It's the very first x86 SIMD extension which is truly suitable for SPMD processing. This is revolutionary because it allows for straightforward auto-vectorization. Previous extensions required developers to do the vectorization themselves, and often even required assembly programming. With AVX2 you can let the compiler take care of that, and just write ordinary scalar code. That's a huge difference which will lead to a much faster adoption.

By the way, it's guaranteed to be adopted faster than any GPGPU technology, which is also based on SPMD auto-vectorization but comes with lots of pitfalls.

So I don't know what more you could expect. Haswell is a lot more about performance than you seem to realize.
BenchPress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 12:54 PM   #507
Ajay
Golden Member
 
Ajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,800
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchPress View Post
You're wrong. AVX2 is nothing like those previous ISA extensions. It's the very first x86 SIMD extension which is truly suitable for SPMD processing. This is revolutionary because it allows for straightforward auto-vectorization. Previous extensions required developers to do the vectorization themselves, and often even required assembly programming. With AVX2 you can let the compiler take care of that, and just write ordinary scalar code. That's a huge difference which will lead to a much faster adoption.
^^ yes, this is huge! The only slow down then becomes regression testing in SQA.
__________________
Asus P6T V2 Deluxe Ci7 970 @ 4.2GHz w/HT, Corsair H100i, 2x240GB SanDisk Extreme RAID0, 2x WD VR 300GB RAID0, MSI GTX 680 PE @ 1110MHz, 12GB G.Skill Riojaws DDR3 1600, Corair 850HX, Corsair 800D case. Win7 x64 Ultimate. Dell U2412M.
Heatware
Ajay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 01:49 PM   #508
pelov
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajay View Post
^^ yes, this is huge! The only slow down then becomes regression testing in SQA.
This was the same with AVX and where has that brought us?

Benchpress, unless you're personally willing to recompile the software then it's going the way of every other ISA: 2-3 year adoption rate before we realize anything meaningful from it.

You're ignoring two key points here

1 - Nobody really cares much about the potential performance benefits outside of select workstation apps and server workloads, and as is the norm with those two segments, the software is optimized and recompiled on a regular basis anyway

2 - Software developers are lazy and won't recompile unless they can see direct profits from it. They certainly won't recompile for a very small percentage of the market

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchPress View Post
AVX2 will be supported by lots of multimedia applications on the day of Haswell's launch, or not long after. Just look at how fast SSE4 was supported, and that didn't offer anywhere near double the performance like AVX2 does!
That was a different era and even that was slow. If you want to relate it to more modern terms then take a look at AVX and its adoption rate. You'll see that it really hasn't been that stellar despite potential throughput increase.

Software developers care about money. Today most money made on software is made on ARM and not x86 (or at least that's the case for most users). The notion that developers will actually recompile because Intel has released this really sweet new ISA is crazy. If you truly do believe that then I've got a few investments you might want to take a look at

And there's an easy way to think about this -
When was the last time you paid for software or an application and on what platform was it? PC, phone, or tablet? On what platform do most users buy their applications?

The server and workstation crowd will adore AVX2, I'm sure of it. The rest of us, though, won't care nor notice.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Childs View Post
hahahahaha "Is this 911? John Travolta just stroked my shaft, call the president!"

Last edited by pelov; 09-10-2012 at 02:15 PM.
pelov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 03:31 PM   #509
Ajay
Golden Member
 
Ajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,800
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelov View Post
The server and workstation crowd will adore AVX2, I'm sure of it. The rest of us, though, won't care nor notice.
Game development should see a rapid adoption, if Intel has done it's marketing properly. If it were Nvidia marketing AVX2, we'd never hear the end of it's benefits.
__________________
Asus P6T V2 Deluxe Ci7 970 @ 4.2GHz w/HT, Corsair H100i, 2x240GB SanDisk Extreme RAID0, 2x WD VR 300GB RAID0, MSI GTX 680 PE @ 1110MHz, 12GB G.Skill Riojaws DDR3 1600, Corair 850HX, Corsair 800D case. Win7 x64 Ultimate. Dell U2412M.
Heatware
Ajay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 03:40 PM   #510
pelov
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajay View Post
Game development should see a rapid adoption, if Intel has done it's marketing properly. If it were Nvidia marketing AVX2, we'd never hear the end of it's benefits.
I was just thinking of that after I posted my response.

There are two things that can throw a wrench in there, one of them being gaming and the other win8 and MS. Considering wintel relations aren't all that great recently it's unlikely that MS would see any sort of x86 resurgence. A console platform with AVX2 would be pretty darn good, but unless MS/Sony specified certain ISAs for their next consoles, I don't think we'll be seeing it. It seems AMD is making the Xbox CPU but depending on what the design is it may or may not have AVX2. If it does then we can actually see some game developers utilizing it but if it doesn't then it might as well be MIPs because they'll treat the desktop as a red-headed stepchild
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Childs View Post
hahahahaha "Is this 911? John Travolta just stroked my shaft, call the president!"
pelov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 06:01 PM   #511
BenchPress
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelov View Post
This was the same with AVX and where has that brought us?
You're still not getting it. AVX sorely lacks gather support, integer support, and vector-vector shifts. Its unsuited for SPMD. And on top of that Sandy Bridge is bandwidth limited. Haswell fixes that all at once, and throws in FMA, hardware transactional memory and lock elision as well!
Quote:
You're ignoring two key points here

1 - Nobody really cares much about the potential performance benefits outside of select workstation apps and server workloads, and as is the norm with those two segments, the software is optimized and recompiled on a regular basis anyway
You are sorely mistaken. Every respectable multimedia application supports every SIMD extension up to SSE 4.1, with hand-written assembly routines. That tells me something about how much they care about improving performance and the effort they're willing to take. And yes, they're skipping AVX, because that's floating-point only. But it's a given that they'll offer AVX2 support as soon as it becomes available.

And that's only the tip of the iceberg. Lots of other application developers are craving higher performance. And while they may not be willing to write assembly for it, AVX2 is a game-changer by enabling SPMD auto-vectorization. For a list of applications, just look for anything that has tried (and most likely failed) to benefit from GPGPU.
Quote:
2 - Software developers are lazy and won't recompile unless they can see direct profits from it. They certainly won't recompile for a very small percentage of the market
AVX2 offers direct profits. And developers are not too lazy to simply change a compiler flag. And while initially the market for AVX2 may be small, nobody wants to be the last. There's a very strong halo effect of being the first to support it. Benchmarks between competing software can make or break sales numbers. And they don't want to risk disappointing the early adopters who invest in the latest hardware and software.
Quote:
And there's an easy way to think about this -
When was the last time you paid for software or an application and on what platform was it? PC, phone, or tablet? On what platform do most users buy their applications?
I bought a 79 cent game for my iPhone, and a 49 dollar game for my PC. So guess where the big money is...
BenchPress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 06:06 PM   #512
pelov
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,512
Default

I'm going to ignore the rest as it's just redundant and just state that most software bought is on ARM thus anything Intel/AMD derived doesn't matter. At all. AMD and Intel can improve performance by a million percent and people would still not care, thus software developers wouldn't care either. You did raise one good point

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchPress View Post
I bought a 79 cent game for my iPhone, and a 49 dollar game for my PC. So guess where the big money is...
That depends highly on what ISAs the newer consoles are. We already know that game devs are lazy and don't bother with recompiles or pay much attention to the PC arena, but if the new console chips feature AVX2 you may have a point. If they don't...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Childs View Post
hahahahaha "Is this 911? John Travolta just stroked my shaft, call the president!"
pelov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 08:18 PM   #513
IntelUser2000
Elite Member
 
IntelUser2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelov View Post
The 17W TDP chips are pretty much neck-and-neck with each other as far as graphics performance goes.
According to here though, HD 4000 in the 17W Ivy Bridge chip is almost on par with the discrete 7550M graphics in the Trinity A6-4455M(17W) laptop while significantly outperforming the HD 7500G integrated.
__________________
Core i7 2600K + Turbo Boost | Intel DH67BL/GMA HD 3000 IGP | Corsair XMS3 2x2GB DDR3-1600 @ 1333 9-9-9-24 |
Intel X25-M G1 80GB + Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | OCZ Modstream 450W | Samsung Syncmaster 931c | Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit | Microsoft Sidewinder Mouse | Viliv S5-Atom Z520 WinXP UMPC
IntelUser2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 07:33 AM   #514
pelov
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelUser2000 View Post
According to here though, HD 4000 in the 17W Ivy Bridge chip is almost on par with the discrete 7550M graphics in the Trinity A6-4455M(17W) laptop while significantly outperforming the HD 7500G integrated.
It's not. The HD4000 at 17W is roughly on par with the 17W Trinity chip. At 35W the HD4000 is still a bit behind the 6620G Llano. The TDP cut-off points hurt AMD and Intel both but they're hitting AMD much harder. Then there's the issue of persistent GPU thottling that happens with both chips that makes any sort of respectable gaming at the ULV level an impossibility
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Childs View Post
hahahahaha "Is this 911? John Travolta just stroked my shaft, call the president!"
pelov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 01:01 PM   #515
happysmiles
Senior Member
 
happysmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 344
Default

Well boys and girls the Haswell liveblog is up! http://www.anandtech.com/show/6263/i...sure-live-blog

looking good so far, name of the game is power efficiency
happysmiles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 01:29 PM   #516
inf64
Platinum Member
 
inf64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,000
Default

The link is slow or not opening at all . But thanks anyway,I'll check it out alter .
__________________
ShintaiDK:"There will be no APU in PS4 and Xbox720."
ShintaiDK:"No quadchannel either.[in Kaveri]"
CHADBOGA:"Because he[OBR] is a great man."
inf64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 01:42 PM   #517
Edrick
Golden Member
 
Edrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Boston MA
Posts: 1,525
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelov View Post
That was a different era and even that was slow. If you want to relate it to more modern terms then take a look at AVX and its adoption rate. You'll see that it really hasn't been that stellar despite potential throughput increase.
For you to compare AXV with AVX2 means you clearly do not understand the difference between the 2 and what the actual benefits are to the development community.
__________________
Core i7 4770
Gigabyte Z87X-UD3H (F5 BIOS)
G.Skill RipjawsZ 8GB @ 2400mhz 10-12-12-31
Gigabyte GTX 660
Samsung 840 Pro 256GB
Antec Eleven Hundred
Edrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 01:58 PM   #518
pelov
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edrick View Post
For you to compare AXV with AVX2 means you clearly do not understand the difference between the 2 and what the actual benefits are to the development community.
I do but my question is what development community?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Childs View Post
hahahahaha "Is this 911? John Travolta just stroked my shaft, call the president!"
pelov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 02:12 PM   #519
TuxDave
Lifer
 
TuxDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 10,289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by happysmiles View Post
Well boys and girls the Haswell liveblog is up! http://www.anandtech.com/show/6263/i...sure-live-blog

looking good so far, name of the game is power efficiency
Thanks for the link. I love reading these.
__________________
post count = post count + 0.999.....
(\__/)
(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination.
TuxDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 02:12 PM   #520
inf64
Platinum Member
 
inf64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,000
Default

Ok,from what I read at AT live blog, Haswell will be a beast of a chip. Th thing can do 2x256bit load and 1x256bit store per cycle per core. It can do 8ops per cycle in execution units and it can do 2x256bit FMA ops per cycle per core. It also can do 1 read from L2 per cycle which is double of what IB can do. In every respect,power,performance and perf./watt this chip will be a marvel. I'm impressed.

As for AMD,I'm sad to say this but no matter how good the SR core is and no matter how much it improves over BD core(even the mythical 45% that vr-zone claims) ,it will be probably crushed by Haswell. Intel just widened the gap in SSE/AVX workloads to more than 2x and I have no clue how can a SR based Opteron(even with 24-28 cores!) chip even start to compete with 10-14 core Haswell in HPC workloads. The gap will be massive I'm afraid. Kudos to intel.
__________________
ShintaiDK:"There will be no APU in PS4 and Xbox720."
ShintaiDK:"No quadchannel either.[in Kaveri]"
CHADBOGA:"Because he[OBR] is a great man."
inf64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 02:35 PM   #521
jones377
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 428
Default

Yup, AMD is literally betting the farm on GPGPU through HSA and totally neglecting x86 SIMD advancements. One Haswell core will have twice the throughput of a Steamroller module.
jones377 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 02:46 PM   #522
BenchPress
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sefsefsefsef View Post
BenchPress, I'm afraid your language isn't EXTREME TO THE MAX enough. Merely calling this a "revolution" is under-selling it, isn't it? What's more EXTREME than a revolution? I'll let you know when I think up some words that are EXTREME enough to describe it.
Have you come up with such words yet? I could use a few.
BenchPress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 02:50 PM   #523
cytg111
Golden Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelov View Post
That depends highly on what ISAs the newer consoles are. We already know that game devs are lazy and don't bother with recompiles or pay much attention to the PC arena, but if the new console chips feature AVX2 you may have a point. If they don't...
- There is also lots of code running in vm's these days, all it would take is an update to the virtual machine, and all running code would benefit from it.
__________________
404
cytg111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 02:57 PM   #524
bronxzv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inf64 View Post
Ok,from what I read at AT live blog, Haswell will be a beast of a chip.
indeed, note that there is more details (buffer sizes ++) than in SPCS001 covered by Anand in ARCS001 available here : https://intel.activeevents.com/sf12/...ler/catalog.do
bronxzv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2012, 03:01 PM   #525
happysmiles
Senior Member
 
happysmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 344
Default

I think AMD knew this was coming hence why they're betting on GPGPU
happysmiles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.