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Old 02-11-2010, 04:15 AM   #1
WhipperSnapper
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Default Hiroshima v. Detroit -- who really won WWII?

I found this photographic before and after comparison of Hiroshima and Detroit to be almost profound. Did the U.S. win the War or did Japan win the War? If you knew nothing about World War II and got to see these before and after photos, which nation would you conclude won the war?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2349112/posts
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:22 AM   #2
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I'm pretty sure dropping two nukes > chronically inept businessmen.
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:44 AM   #3
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Neat idea but poorly executed with only a handful of cherry picked pictures. I'm sure hiroshima has abandoned buildings, too, just as detroit doesn't. However, Detroit would possibly be made better by getting put out of its misery, what a failure.
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:21 AM   #4
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I'm sure some part of japan has urban decay. Probably not to the level of detroit, but... detroit is a special case.

Also... when a city gets razed, it gets new buildings...
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:42 AM   #5
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I'm pretty sure dropping two nukes > chronically inept businessmen.
Dropping two nukes>Poor business plans - out sourcing production
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:36 AM   #6
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Those pictures are only profound if you're a profoundly stupid individual. The site seems to make the claim that the liberals in power are the reason the city of Detroit has fallen completely into ruin. But that completely ignores the large corporations who outsourced tens of thousands of industrial jobs to third world countries with a cheaper labor market. And then there's the fact that the growth of Hiroshima in Japan happened under 50+ years of liberal government rule, which tends to undermine the claim that liberalism will ruin cities. It's completely asinine and designed solely to appeal to people who flat out refuse to consider the merits of an argument before they accept it as gospel.
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:57 AM   #7
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Those pictures are only profound if you're a profoundly stupid individual. The site seems to make the claim that the liberals in power are the reason the city of Detroit has fallen completely into ruin. But that completely ignores the large corporations who outsourced tens of thousands of industrial jobs to third world countries with a cheaper labor market. And then there's the fact that the growth of Hiroshima in Japan happened under 50+ years of liberal government rule, which tends to undermine the claim that liberalism will ruin cities. It's completely asinine and designed solely to appeal to people who flat out refuse to consider the merits of an argument before they accept it as gospel.
If you make the argument that a liberal governing style can't be blamed for failures such as Detroit, how can you turn around and claim it's the reason for the success of Hiroshima? You can either advocate for the liberal governance style (in which case you need to explain its failures) or say that liberalism is a non-factor (and in that case, what is there to recommend adopting it?)
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:06 AM   #8
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Freeper article is fail as usual.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:31 AM   #9
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If you make the argument that a liberal governing style can't be blamed for failures such as Detroit, how can you turn around and claim it's the reason for the success of Hiroshima? You can either advocate for the liberal governance style (in which case you need to explain its failures) or say that liberalism is a non-factor (and in that case, what is there to recommend adopting it?)
Good job on pointing out his blatant hypocrisy.

However, in the minds of many on the left, liberalism has no failures. It is "perfect" and how dare you imply that it has any failings!
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:35 AM   #10
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The number 200 is superior to humans. Why? Because no human lives to be 200 years old!

The military defeat of Japan has nothing to do with Detroit today.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:47 AM   #11
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Says the guy with a Japanese purple haird metrosexual avatar.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:24 AM   #12
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A United States Military Commander wrote Japan's Constitution. We won.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:53 AM   #13
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Good job on pointing out his blatant hypocrisy.

However, in the minds of many on the left, liberalism has no failures. It is "perfect" and how dare you imply that it has any failings!
What the hell is liberalism? Is that like progressive thought?
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:13 AM   #14
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Genocide -> Evolution
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:17 AM   #15
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Detroit's 'boom' was in the 1920s --- it's been a slow downhill slog since then (when the auto industry began expanding in southern Mich).

They sold their street cars to Mexico in the mid-1950s and have now expanded to their 5th layer of 'suburbia'. 'Urban renewal' as practiced in the early 'freeways' of the 1960s sliced up the city and accelerated 'white flight' to the suburban rings.

It will take a few generations (and some smart folks) but the urban core will 'redevelop' into a more centralized, compact center ....




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Old 02-11-2010, 09:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
If you knew nothing about World War II and got to see these before and after photos, which nation would you conclude won the war?
I generally find jumping to conclusions without any facts or perspective to be a waste of time.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:51 AM   #17
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The number 200 is superior to humans. Why? Because no human lives to be 200 years old!

The military defeat of Japan has nothing to do with Detroit today.
I think you could make a case that the creation of the 'Arsenal of Democracy' at least indirectly caused some of the depopulation of the city of Detroit.

In the early years of the auto industry, there were a number of auto plants physically located within the city. As war production ramped up, a number of the plants were located outside of the city--Willow Run in Ypsilanti, Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant in Warren.

Post-war, much of the manufacturing capability continued to move to the suburbs. Detroit's population peaked in the mid-50s. By the late 60s, white flight was a recognized phenomenon.

So, the original 'giant sucking sound' was the sound of jobs moving from the city to the suburbs and Canada. That was followed by a second wave of plant openings in the south.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:08 AM   #18
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Yes, definitely. Those Japanese are very methodical and patient.

Uh, wut? There's a reason that most people don't take FreeRepublic seriously. Little more than 4chan for the insane RightWing.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:09 AM   #19
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Its somewhat easy to blame inept Detroit management for the decline of our auto industry, but the American people and their buying habits can only be described as schizophrenic in sending mixed messages. Nor can the American government action and inaction get a pass, health care of workers also factors in, and in term of outsourcing, the domestic and foreign auto producers are better than American industry in general.

The Japanese government also put a great deal of planning and government subsidies into their auto industry, while the US government had so such planning. And no such planning is simply designed failure.

The USA seems to worship Adam Smith type free enterprise, but the economic "laws" that govern small businesses nearly everyone has the capital to enter simply do not scale up to huge businesses where mass production economies of scale become supremely important.

In short, this thread misses the mark because there is no simple answers to an extremely complex problem.

But other bottom line, the USA used to dominate the world automotive industry, but now, as a new type of far more efficient automobile, world wide automotive dominance is once more up for grabs. Will the USA and its government once again shoot ourselves in the foot?
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:28 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Lemon law View Post
Its somewhat easy to blame inept Detroit management for the decline of our auto industry, but the American people and their buying habits can only be described as schizophrenic in sending mixed messages. Nor can the American government action and inaction get a pass, health care of workers also factors in, and in term of outsourcing, the domestic and foreign auto producers are better than American industry in general.

The Japanese government also put a great deal of planning and government subsidies into their auto industry, while the US government had so such planning. And no such planning is simply designed failure.

The USA seems to worship Adam Smith type free enterprise, but the economic "laws" that govern small businesses nearly everyone has the capital to enter simply do not scale up to huge businesses where mass production economies of scale become supremely important.

In short, this thread misses the mark because there is no simple answers to an extremely complex problem.

But other bottom line, the USA used to dominate the world automotive industry, but now, as a new type of far more efficient automobile, world wide automotive dominance is once more up for grabs. Will the USA and its government once again shoot ourselves in the foot?
Largely I think it's the difference between Long term and Short term Corporate philosophy. Short term thinking is good for Innovation, but not good for a large Corporations longevity. At least for Corporations that deal with Products where potential Innovation is rather limited. The Automobile Industry is well established and Innovation is quite limited, although at this time it is going through dramatic shifts. However, for many decades it was rather stagnant and that's where the Big 3 lost it's way.

OTOH, Corporations like Intel and AMD are in an Industry where Innovation has been constantly required. So for them Short Term thinking is very important and continues to lead to their success.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:10 PM   #21
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Neat idea but poorly executed with only a handful of cherry picked pictures. I'm sure hiroshima has abandoned buildings, too, just as detroit doesn't. However, Detroit would possibly be made better by getting put out of its misery, what a failure.
Those photos are pretty much what Detroit looks like except for a couple square miles in the downtown area (which itself is very pathetic) where you'll find the tall buildings, a large urban university (Wayne State U.), and a large medical center. Here are some videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nga2_XK3kmE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6WKMNmFsxM
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:13 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Atomic Playboy View Post
Those pictures are only profound if you're a profoundly stupid individual. The site seems to make the claim that the liberals in power are the reason the city of Detroit has fallen completely into ruin. But that completely ignores the large corporations who outsourced tens of thousands of industrial jobs to third world countries with a cheaper labor market. And then there's the fact that the growth of Hiroshima in Japan happened under 50+ years of liberal government rule, which tends to undermine the claim that liberalism will ruin cities. It's completely asinine and designed solely to appeal to people who flat out refuse to consider the merits of an argument before they accept it as gospel.
I don't disagree with you about foreign outsourcing and global labor arbitrage as being large problems. As for what exactly killed Detroit, it would probably be politically incorrect and ill-advised to discuss that. (Let's just say that a huge white flight began in the Sixties.)

I do think that the photos are profound though, not because they suggest that liberalism killed Detroit, but rather for the reasons you put forth. The U.S. may have won the war but "lost the peace" with the rest of the world. If our nation's economy continues to decline, will other cities begin to look like Detroit?

Last edited by WhipperSnapper; 02-11-2010 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:18 PM   #23
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Says the guy with a Japanese purple haird metrosexual avatar.
Heh heh. I had to choose an avatar after the forum changeover and I settled on "Yappy Girl". I guess I could go find another avatar but I've kind of grown to like Yappy Girl and no one else is using it.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
Those photos are pretty much what Detroit looks like except for a couple square miles in the downtown area (which itself is very pathetic) where you'll find the tall buildings, a large urban university (Wayne State U.), and a large medical center. Here are some videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nga2_XK3kmE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6WKMNmFsxM
damn
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
I don't disagree with you about foreign outsourcing and global labor arbitrage as being large problems. As for what exactly killed Detroit, it would probably be politically incorrect and ill-advised to discuss that. (Let's just say that a huge white flight began in the Sixties.)

I do think that the photos are profound though, not because they suggest that liberalism killed Detroit, but rather for the reasons you put forth. The U.S. may have won the war but "lost the peace" with the rest of the world. If our nation's economy continues to decline, will other cities begin to look like Detroit?
Detroit is dead because it is Motown. When it's the "Mo" that became obsolete in the face of competition, it is no longer Motown. Just a run down town.

No other city in the US is so completely dependent on one industry.
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