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Old 08-01-2008, 06:41 PM   #51
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Quote:
Originally posted by: RyanSengara
Quote:
Originally posted by: gsethi
Quote:
Originally posted by: BigJ
Quote:
Originally posted by: gsethi
Quote:
Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.
True...but at least let me know if you are going to show up next scheduled day or not (especially since you are walking out) and there is no reason to scream or give an attitude (just say it politely)
Then why'd you keep pressing the issue of signing it?
I didnt. Just told the employee that he/she is getting a warning. Employee was almost screaming at me "I am not going to sign anything" and "this is a small matter". I told the employee that it doesnt matter but then he/she just walked out on me while I was talking with him/her. No answer as to if he/she was going to show up next scheduled day (which is Monday morning)



Quote:
Originally posted by: moshquerade
dismiss employee for insubordination?
Not yet, Good worker, always on time. No problems with the employee but who knows...


Quote:
Originally posted by: astroidea
Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
The whole "signing warnings" thing is stupid anyhow.

"I'm going to yell at you for doing something wrong, now please sign this waiver stating that I yelled at you"
it's a legal thing.
companies usually file these warnings under employee records.
if the employee is fired, and happens to sue for some kind of illegetimate termination, then the company has evidence to defend itself.
Exactly. Just follow company policy which clearly state that if not wearing proper uniform, you will be given written warnings. I have already saved a copy of the surveillance of the employee walking out etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by: spidey07
Quote:
Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.
Yep. Smart guy. NEVER sign something like that if you don't agree with it.
Signing the warning is not admission of wrong doing. It clearly states that you are signing that you are receiving a warning (just like a traffic ticket). It has room for employee's remarks where they can tell their story.
If it isn't an admission of wrong doing, whats the point of signing it? Especially if you contest it.

It really comes off as an admission of guilt.

If you want witnesses of the instances to cite if they person charges a wrongful termination suit, get witnesses to sign an affidavit.
It's PROOF that a warning was given to the employee and they are signing to say that "yeah, that warning was given to me". Doesn't matter if they agree or not, it's just something that the employer can keep that they can use in case the employee gets fired and says that no one warned him that he was doing something wrong.

The employee not signing it is insubordination because it's like saying "No, you're not allowed to give me warnings, no matter what. Not only did they refuse, but they walked out. Bad
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:47 PM   #52
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

If I was in your shoes I would suspend the employee for 3 days and if they still refuse to sgn the form, terminate them.

Rule #1 The boss is always right
Rule #2 see above.

If they dont like it, time for them to be their own boss.
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:06 PM   #53
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

As much as I think written warnings are stupid, I see their usefulness for the employer. In this case you were being pretty lax about it, and a only a few months ago did you do an about-face and start being strict. That's fine, it's your choice. I personally would've given them a verbal warning the first time, just told them that the way they're dressed will earn them a written warning, maybe send them home to get changed. If they refuse or give attitude, then a written warning would be more than justified. They might have just been really used to doing things the old way, habits are sometimes hard to break.

As far as firing the person, it comes down to if they're a good employee or not. Is it worth keeping them around, maybe making the effort to resolve the situation professionally, or would they be better off being replaced?

It ain't easy being in charge, I respect you for being able to run a few franchises too, that's gotta be hair pulling-ly fun.
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:08 PM   #54
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

This is why you should only hire illegal immigrants, you don't have to deal with this headache.

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Old 08-01-2008, 07:22 PM   #55
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
Quote:
Originally posted by: Amused
Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
The whole "signing warnings" thing is stupid anyhow.

"I'm going to yell at you for doing something wrong, now please sign this waiver stating that I yelled at you"
When the employer is sued upon firing the employee, and the employee states that he was never warned or told what he was doing was wrong, the employer has proof the employee was warned.

Yeah, how stupid.
Or just keep records yourself without having people sign documents stating they suck at their job. Great morale booster
If the employee does not sign it, you have no proof you have warned the employee.

Signing the document does not mean you agree with it. It merely acknowledges you received the warning.

In any case, the employee has ALREADY been warned. Why is signing an acknowledgment to this any more demoralizing???

The morale of my emplyee means dick if he cannot be warned and I can't have proof of it.

You obviously have never been an employer, or manager, have you?
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:29 PM   #56
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Quote:
Originally posted by: Amused
Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
Quote:
Originally posted by: Amused
Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
The whole "signing warnings" thing is stupid anyhow.

"I'm going to yell at you for doing something wrong, now please sign this waiver stating that I yelled at you"
When the employer is sued upon firing the employee, and the employee states that he was never warned or told what he was doing was wrong, the employer has proof the employee was warned.

Yeah, how stupid.
Or just keep records yourself without having people sign documents stating they suck at their job. Great morale booster
If the employee does not sign it, you have no proof you have warned the employee.

Signing the document does not mean you agree with it. It merely acknowledges you received the warning.

In any case, the employee has ALREADY been warned. Why is signing an acknowledgment to this any more demoralizing???

The morale of my emplyee means dick if he cannot be warned and I can't have proof of it.

You obviously have never been an employer, or manager, have you?
Well, thats where video surveillance comes in handy. I have already taped that incident and will be saving it.

Being an Owner and managing employees is not easy....
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:45 PM   #57
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

be more selective in your hiring practices.
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:52 PM   #58
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Quote:
Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.
Not if they want to continue to work there they don't. If I gave one of my folks a written notice or warning of something and they yelled and refused to sign, I'd fire them for insubordination on the spot. Buh-bye.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:00 PM   #59
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

I understand why we had Page 13's in the Navy, but I dont care much for this concept in the civilian world.

That kind of nonsense is what got me screwed out of my unemployment benefits when I left my last job.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:11 PM   #60
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

I got a verbal warning at work just the other day. My screw up was a lot worse then what you are describing, but also a different industry, just sign the damn paper and quit being a baby you're just going to look worse in the long run.

OP, I would sit down and talk to the employee and give him or herself a chance to explain things. Maybe they were having a really bad day, maybe they felt attacked, maybe employees have been gossiping about things. Sit them down and talk it out if it is worth it, otherwise give them the ultimatum, sign the paper or GTFO.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:14 PM   #61
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

:camera: of uniform?

So, he/she wasn't wearing a hat or apron?
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:19 PM   #62
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Kahleeforneeya IS an "at will" state, so the documented warnings REALLY aren't required, just a way for employers to prove that they tried to rectify the problem before firing the worker. Unless the OP's workers are covered by the Amalgamated Burger Flippers, Local "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday," he really doesn't have to deal with this person any more.
I'm one of the strongest "employee rights" people on this board, but what the employee did (yelling and walking out) is indeed cause for dismissal. IF the OP so chooses, he can sit her down for a "fatherly" talking to if she returns for her regular shift, with the admonition that it's her final warning, (and YES, get it in writing) then either let her return to work, give her a few days of suspension, or, just fire her on the spot. (remember, you have to pay her when you fire her, or you owe her one day's pay for every day she has to wait)
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:32 PM   #63
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
The whole "signing warnings" thing is stupid anyhow.

"I'm going to yell at you for doing something wrong, now please sign this waiver stating that I yelled at you"
ditto

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Old 08-01-2008, 08:33 PM   #64
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Quote:
Originally posted by: S Freud
I got a verbal warning at work just the other day. My screw up was a lot worse then what you are describing, but also a different industry, just sign the damn paper and quit being a baby you're just going to look worse in the long run.

OP, I would sit down and talk to the employee and give him or herself a chance to explain things. Maybe they were having a really bad day, maybe they felt attacked, maybe employees have been gossiping about things. Sit them down and talk it out if it is worth it, otherwise give them the ultimatum, sign the paper or GTFO.
Got done talking with the Manager. When manager came, he told both employees that they were not wearing a visor and that I might be pissed about if I came and saw it. (Other employee who also got the warning and signed admitted that manager told them both to wear visor earlier when I wasn't there). When I walked in, I saw both not wearing the visor. The other employee quickly went back and wore the visor when he saw me entering (but he still got the warning and understood).

This employee (who refused to sign) kept on working without wearing one. He/she went to restroom in between, came back and still did not care to wear the visor. (The excuse I got was that he/she forgot and it was busy...yet the employee had time to go to restroom couple of times while not on break).

I know its a small thing but if I didn't write them up now, then they will never take me seriously. Also, they were clearly informed few months ago that I would be giving them written warnings if it happened again, so if I didn't give warning today, then they will take me for granted forever.


Quote:
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
:camera: of uniform?

So, he/she wasn't wearing a hat or apron?
yes, no visor/hat...sry, no pics available.

Quote:
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Kahleeforneeya IS an "at will" state, so the documented warnings REALLY aren't required, just a way for employers to prove that they tried to rectify the problem before firing the worker. Unless the OP's workers are covered by the Amalgamated Burger Flippers, Local "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday," he really doesn't have to deal with this person any more.
I'm one of the strongest "employee rights" people on this board, but what the employee did (yelling and walking out) is indeed cause for dismissal. IF the OP so chooses, he can sit her down for a "fatherly" talking to if she returns for her regular shift, with the admonition that it's her final warning, (and YES, get it in writing) then either let her return to work, give her a few days of suspension, or, just fire her on the spot. (remember, you have to pay her when you fire her, or you owe her one day's pay for every day she has to wait)
Yes, they are "at-will" employees. I know that I have to pay them on the day they are terminated from employment. I still have this employee scheduled on his/her regular schedule for next week. So if he/she shows up, I will have the "insubordination" warning for him/her to sign for and if he/she refused to sign that, I guess it will be immediate termination.

No, the employee did not "yell" but his/her voice was much louder than normal when he/she said "I am not going to sign anything". It was an authoritative kind of sound(just a notch below screaming) that he/she was trying to enforce his/her on me. Also, the fact that he/she did not answer as to whether he/she was going to show up on Monday and continued walking out kind of pissed me.

ah well...will she what happens on Monday morning. I already have another person to cover the shift scheduled for monday and there are instructions for this employee to call me if he/she shows up on Monday. I guess I will just have the employee punch in and just have him/her sit and not do anything while I reach there. Last thing I want is a grunted employee to get hurt (intentionally or unintentionally) while working and then file for Worker's comp.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:38 PM   #65
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Quote:
Originally posted by: gsethi
yes, no visor/hat...sry, no pics available.
Visorless clerks make me keenly uncomfortable, too.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:50 PM   #66
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

I've had people refuse to sign warnings and performance reviews. Doesn't matter. I just write "Employee refused to sign" and the time/date of the meeting and turn it in. I don't make any effort to coerce them to sign, because it's meaningless anyway.
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:19 PM   #67
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

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did he leave the fries on too long?
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:28 PM   #68
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Why make a big deal about a small uniform infraction, if you hate dealing with hiring and training so much then treat the employee's a little better and let a few small things slide? I don't know, maybe having part of the uniform missing is a huge deal from a franchise perspective and you can be fined, or customers freak out and want to leave, etc. If so, I apologize, but I'm guessing it's something hardly anybody cares about.

OK, yeah they were told already and still didn't listen, and now the other employees might think they can get away with it too. Oh no, Then they have no respect for authority and start doing other stuff, etc, so somewhere you have to draw the line. Except... well.. the line is probably not with the uniform. IMO, get firm if it's impacting the customer experience, otherwise you just appear to be on a power trip.

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Old 08-01-2008, 09:34 PM   #69
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
Quote:
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
Quote:
Originally posted by: Amused
Quote:
Originally posted by: ric1287
The whole "signing warnings" thing is stupid anyhow.

"I'm going to yell at you for doing something wrong, now please sign this waiver stating that I yelled at you"
When the employer is sued upon firing the employee, and the employee states that he was never warned or told what he was doing was wrong, the employer has proof the employee was warned.

Yeah, how stupid.
Or just keep records yourself without having people sign documents stating they suck at their job. Great morale booster
You will never be in charge of anything important.
Ah, well you're a jackass.

But anyway, keep records, make a written warning and give a copy to the employee. I'm not arguing against written warnings but against the demoralization of signing something that's explaining why you suck.
What should we do? Give them a hug everytime they fuck up?
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:37 PM   #70
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

and?
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:17 PM   #71
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Fire them. It's so retarded not doing what your boss says, it indicates your lack of respect/compliance in a job that you are at at the employer's (and your) mutual behest.
Quote:
Why make a big deal about a small uniform infraction, if you hate dealing with hiring and training so much then treat the employee's a little better and let a few small things slide?
Kind of people he probably has employed in his field are little more than trained dogs, if you let something like this slip you end up with it sh*ting on the floor, so you have to whip them good and keep them in line, that's a fact.
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:23 PM   #72
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out


OP, did you ever think that your hats/visors suck badly enough that people will risk getting in trouble rather than wear them?
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:27 PM   #73
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

You can take this advice with a grain of salt, but:
Quote:
When I walked in, I saw both not wearing the visor. The other employee quickly went back and wore the visor when he saw me entering (but he still got the warning and understood).
Quit micro-managing. It's a fast food place. Jobs are a dime a dozen. Good workers who show up on time regularly aren't nearly as frequent in that industry.
Quote:
When manager came, he told both employees that they were not wearing a visor and that I might be pissed about if I came and saw it.
There's your problem. If the manager couldn't correct such a simple behavior verbally without making a big deal out of it, you need to choose your managers a bit better. This isn't coming from inexperience - I was a "regular" employee for a couple of years, then manager at a pizza shop for 18 more years. I can only recall one situation in 18 years where we fired an employee - that employee made crude remarks to a customer on a couple of occasions. (The final straw was when a female told him that the restroom was out of toilet paper & he said "I hope you didn't get your hand wet.")

A result of not micro-managing is that employees tended to work there much longer term. Find me another fast food place where the average term of employment is around 10 years, and many of the employees stick around, even after getting full-time professional jobs (policeman, accountant, banker, CAD draftsman, teacher,...)

Written warnings that the employee has to sign - at a fast food restaurant?? Get over yourself. It's great that you own a few franchises - I'm not saying it's not a huge accomplishment. But, understand that the jobs of the majority of your employees are rather trivial in the big picture. Reserve the written warnings for real jobs.

Tip: sometimes posting general notes to all staff works quite well; depends on the tone. If you can make it sound like you're pissed, but without pointing fingers, that individual will know exactly who you're talking about. i.e. "One of the health inspectors was in for lunch the other day. He commented to me that a couple of my employees didn't have visors on when they were around food. If this had happened during an official inspection, we may have been fined. Wear them, or your uniform is going to start including hair nets."
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:54 PM   #74
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

You have at least one recourse. If the employee continues to act like an asshat, don't fire him. Instead, reduce his hours so much that he basically can't live on his wages and has to quit. If he's a delivery driver, give him shitty runs that go to the far reaches of your delivery area. If you fire him you will have to pay for unemployment. I normally despise this method of dealing with problem employees, but in the cases of dicks like him, go nuts.

Dr Pizza: I understand your point of view but this is his business. If he gives exceptions or leniency then that employee and other employees will probably start pushing the limits. True, it's a menial job, but it's HIS money that is paying their wages. All he is asking is to wear the proper uniform. I don't consider that as micro-managing and does not take a big effort on the employee's end. You don't even know if this is a policy that the company requires to be adhered to continue to be a franchise. It didn't sound to me like the OP flipped out on him. Maybe he should have given a verbal warning first, however.
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Old 08-02-2008, 12:11 AM   #75
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Default Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

Wearing Proper uniform is a requirement of the franchisor. We get randomly inspected by the franchisor end of last year/starting of this year, we were repeatedly getting written up for uniforms (partly my fault b/c i was lenient on the employees on uniform policy...they would get verbal warnings from me and employees would only take verbal warnings seriously for a week or so at most). As a result, I did get fined for this location by the franchisor (and uniform issue was picked as #1 issue).

Thats when in March 08, I gave everyone a warning and told them that henceforth, they would be getting written warnings only (no more verbal warning). All employees know that I got fined for them not being in proper uniform and they know I was being serious that time. March/April onwards, uniform issue got fixed immediately by everyone and had no problems until today (I guess employees were getting lazy again since there were no verbal warnings for past couple of months...everyone is working good lately). Also, I dont want the franchisor's inspector to walk in and see one of my employees not in proper uniform again (will result in bigger fine).

Dr. Pizza, I dont try to micro-manage. My manager's job is to get issues resolved (if they ever pop up) quickly and not create any scenes. He told both employees couple of times to wear visors/hat because he knows that I would be giving written warnings otherwise. I guess both employees didn't took him seriously. Also, manager used to sympathize with the employees a lot and I told him to not anymore and follow franchisor's policies seriously. I want to have my paperwork straight incase franchisor thinks that it is me (the franchisee) who is being lenient/not following policies. One thing is franchise not following the policy, but it is a completly different matter if the franchise is following policies but employees are not (I cannot force an employee to wear proper uniform, i can only warn them legally)

Its just that this employee was getting a warning, gave a totally invalid excuse first, and then the attitude with which he/she was talking back to me and then walking out in the middle of conversation.
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